ECT Why shouldn't I convert from Evangelical Protestant to Catholic?

RichRock

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I have to disagree with you on this one. I have looked into these 'incorruptables' and from what I have learnt is they ALL show signs of decay. The ones that don't (which haven't been posted) upon closer inspection are actually wearing wax or silicone masks and hands.

The Church is quite silent on this matter and from what I can make out they say that an 'incorruptable' (non-decompossing) body is not a requirement for Sainthood. They also say that bodies can become incorruptable naturally...i.e.mummies etc. I may be wrong and am open to being corrected on that point.

I would say they all decay, even bodies that show no decay for the first few decades will eventually return to dust if left to natural devices. 'Dust to dust' as they say.

Show me one body that has no decay whatsoever throughout it's torso and looks like it is naturally asleep and alive (so to speak). You won't be able to because there isn't one.

Just my opinion.

And I'll just add that IF there was a body with no decay, say from 500 years ago, we would have a marvel indeed. Imagine, no decay whatsoever...the heart stopped and all cells frozen in time..suspended animation without damage to the bodily tissues etc. In theory we could restart the body, If they had died from a heart attack etc it would be just like someone arresting on a hospital ward today...they die for a minute or two and then are shocked back into life. (this is possible because there is at that point hardly any damage to the brain cells etc through lack of oxygen).

Even if we didn't try to restart the heart, science/biology would be amazed to see it and would HAVE to declare that some people who believed in God do not decay AT ALL when the heart stops....I haven't heard of any scientists/biologists declare or prove this.

This all sounds fantastic, because it is. Everyone's body decays at death, there is no escaping it if you die before Jesus comes back...our whole planet is in decay, as is the sun which will eventually burn up it's gasses in a few billion years or so.
 

Angel4Truth

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Who would put such a body in a glass casket to pray to?


st-francis-xavier.jpg


How macabre. It is something we might expect from devil worshipers.


roman-catholic-priest.jpg

First, you're missing the point being that the body is where the healing comes from.

Second
st-catherine-head-sometimes-moved-and-priests-even-change-her-clothing.jpg


That doesn't look at all decayed to you? :AMR:

You must not have read your own link (I notice a pattern here)

Godly intervention allows some human bodies (specifically saints and beati) to avoid the normal process of decomposition after death as a sign of their holiness. Bodies that undergo little or no decomposition, or delayed decomposition, are sometimes referred to as incorrupt or incorruptible.



Can you show me one that has absolutely no decomposition?

Obviously that 'saint' at the top didnt get a special incorruptability as it looks extremly decomposed to me.

Ive seen loads of Egyptians that were well preserved, should we suppose God intervened and caused them not to suffer much corruption and as such venerate(worship) them and pray to their dead rotting flesh?
 

CabinetMaker

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We already covered relics two days ago, I really can't be bothered to cover old ground.

Let's look at protestantism from a Catholic angle, this article resonates well with what I am coming to believe.

150 Reasons why I am Catholic. Here's the first 31 reasons....discuss. (Ps this person was a Baptist who converted to Catholicism)

1.*Best One-Sentence Summary: I am convinced that the Catholic Church conforms much more closely to all of the*biblical data, offers the only coherent view of thehistory of Christianity*(i.e., Christian, apostolic Tradition), and possesses the most profound and sublime Christian morality, spirituality, social ethic, and philosophy.

2.*Alternate: I am a Catholic because I sincerely believe, by virtue of much cumulative evidence, that Catholicism is*true, and that the Catholic Church is the visible Church divinely-established by our Lord Jesus, against which the gates of hell cannot and will not prevail (Mt 16:18), thereby possessing an*authority*to which I feel bound in Christian duty to submit.

3.*2nd Alternate: I left Protestantism because it was seriously deficient in its interpretation of the Bible (e.g., "faith alone" and many other "Catholic" doctrines - see evidences below), inconsistently selective in its espousal of various Catholic Traditions (e.g., the Canon of the Bible), inadequate in its ecclesiology, lacking a sensible view of Christian history (e.g., "Scripture alone"), compromised morally (e.g., contraception, divorce), and unbiblically schismatic, anarchical, and relativistic. I don't therefore believe that Protestantism is all bad (not by a long shot), but these are some of the major deficiencies I eventually saw as fatal to the "theory" of Protestantism, over against Catholicism. All Catholics must regard baptized, Nicene, Chalcedonian Protestants as Christians
.
4. Catholicism isn't formally*divided and sectarian*(Jn 17:20-23;*Rom 16:17;*1 Cor 1:10-13).

5. Catholic*unity*makes Christianity and Jesus more believable to the world (Jn 17:23).

6. Catholicism, because of its unified, complete, fully supernatural Christian vision, mitigates againstsecularization and humanism.

7. Catholicism avoids an unbiblical*individualism*which undermines Christian community (e.g.,*1 Cor 12:25-26).

8. Catholicism avoids*theological*relativism, by means of dogmatic certainty and the centrality of the papacy.

9. Catholicism avoids*ecclesiological anarchism*- one cannot merely jump to another denomination when some disciplinary measure or censure is called for.

10. Catholicism formally (although, sadly, not always in practice) prevents the theological*relativism*which leads to the uncertainties within the Protestant system among laypeople.

11. Catholicism rejects the*"State Church,"*which has led to governments dominating Christianity rather than vice-versa.

12. Protestant State Churches greatly influenced the rise of*nationalism, which mitigated against universal equality and Christian universalism (i.e., Catholicism).

13. Unified Catholic Christendom (before the 16th century) had not been plagued by the tragic*religious wars*which in turn led to the "Enlightenment," in which men rejected the hypocrisy of inter-Christian warfare and decided to become indifferent to religion rather than letting it guide their lives.

14. Catholicism retains the elements of*mystery, supernatural, and the*sacred*in Christianity, thus opposing itself to*secularization, where the sphere of the religious in life becomes greatly limited.

15. Protestant individualism led to the*privatization*of Christianity, whereby it is little respected in societal and political life, leaving the "public square" barren of Christian influence.

16. The secular false dichotomy of*"church vs. world"has led committed orthodox Christians, by and large, to withdraw from politics, leaving a void filled by pagans, cynics, unscrupulous, and power-hungry. Catholicism offers a framework in which to approach the state and civic responsibility.

17. Protestantism leans too much on mere*traditions of men*(every denomination stems from one Founder's vision. As soon as two or more of these contradict each other, error is necessarily present).

18. Protestant churches (esp. evangelicals), are far too often guilty of putting their pastors on too high of a pedestal. In effect,*every pastor becomes a "pope,"*to varying degrees (some are "super-popes"). Because of this, evangelical congregations often experience a severe crisis and/or split up when a pastor leaves, thus proving that their philosophy is overly man-centered, rather than God-centered.

19. Protestantism, due to lack of real authority and dogmatic structure, is tragically prone to accommodation to the*spirit of the age, and*moral faddism.

20. Catholicism retains*apostolic succession, necessary to know what is true Christian apostolic Tradition. It was the criterion of Christian truth used by the early Christians.

21. Many Protestants take a dim view towards*Christian history*in general, esp. the years from 313 (Constantine's conversion) to 1517 (Luther's arrival). This ignorance and hostility to Catholic Tradition leads to theological relativism, anti-Catholicism, and a constant, unnecessary process of "reinventing the wheel."

22. Protestantism from its inception was*anti-Catholic, and remains so to this day (esp. evangelicalism). This is obviously wrong and unbiblical if Catholicism is indeed Christian (if it isn't, then - logically - neither is Protestantism, which inherited the bulk of its theology from Catholicism). The Catholic Church, on the other hand, is not anti-Protestant.

23. The Catholic Church accepts the authority of the great*Ecumenical Councils*(see, e.g.,*Acts 15) which defined and developed Christian doctrine (much of which Protestantism also accepts).

24. Most Protestants do not have*bishops, a Christian office which is biblical (1 Tim 3:1-2) and which has existed from the earliest Christian history and Tradition.

25. Protestantism has no way of*settling doctrinal issues*definitively. At best, the individual Protestant can only take a head count of how many Protestant scholars, commentators, etc. take such-and-such a view on Doctrine X, Y, or Z. There is no unified Protestant Tradition.

26. Protestantism arose in 1517, and is a "Johnny-come-lately" in the history of Christianity. Therefore it cannot possibly be the "restoration" of "pure", "primitive" Christianity, since this is ruled out by the fact of its*absurdly late appearance. Christianity must have historic continuity or it is not Christianity. Protestantism is necessarily a "parasite" of Catholicism, historically and doctrinally speaking.

27. The Protestant notion of the*"invisible church"*is also novel in the history of Christianity and foreign to the Bible (Mt 5:14;*Mt 16:18), therefore untrue.

28. When Protestant theologians speak of the teaching of early Christianity (e.g., when refuting "cults"), they say "the Church taught . . ." (as it was then unified), but when they refer to the present they instinctively and inconsistently refrain from such terminology, sinceuniversal teaching authority*now clearly resides only in the Catholic Church.

29. The Protestant principle of*private judgment*has created a milieu (esp. in Protestant America) in which (invariably) man-centered "cults" such as Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, and Christian Science arise. The very notion that one can "start" a new, or "the true" Church is Protestant to the core.

30. The lack of a*definitive teaching authority*in Protestant (as with the Catholic magisterium) makes many individual Protestants think that they have a direct line to God, notwithstanding all of Christian Tradition and the history of biblical exegesis (a*"Bible, Holy Spirit and me" mentality). Such people are generally under-educated theologically, unteachable, lack humility, and have no business making presumed "infallible" statements about the nature of Christianity.

31. Evangelicalism's*"techniques" of evangelism*are often contrived and manipulative, certainly not directly derived from the text of the Bible. Some even resemble brainwashing to a degree.

Source: http://www.ourcatholicfaith.org/reasons.html

:popcorn:
What was fascinating to me about this list is not once did I see, "I am Catholic because Jesus is my Lord and Savior." These are all just hollow justification of man made ceremonies and traditions that have little or nothing to do with salvation.
 

God's Truth

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And I'll just add that IF there was a body with no decay, say from 500 years ago, we would have a marvel indeed. Imagine, no decay whatsoever...the heart stopped and all cells frozen in time..suspended animation without damage to the bodily tissues etc. In theory we could restart the body, If they had died from a heart attack etc it would be just like someone arresting on a hospital ward today...they die for a minute or two and then are shocked back into life. (this is possible because there is at that point hardly any damage to the brain cells etc through lack of oxygen).

Even if we didn't try to restart the heart, science/biology would be amazed to see it and would HAVE to declare that some people who believed in God do not decay AT ALL when the heart stops....I haven't heard of any scientists/biologists declare or prove this.

This all sounds fantastic, because it is. Everyone's body decays at death, there is no escaping it if you die before Jesus comes back...our whole planet is in decay, as is the sun which will eventually burn up it's gasses in a few billion years or so.


However, the CATHOLICS SAY their saint's bodies are INCORRUPTIBLE.

They misunderstand this scripture:


Acts 2:27 because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, you will not let your holy one see decay.


Jesus is the only one whose body has not seen decay.
 

RichRock

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However, the CATHOLICS SAY their saint's bodies are INCORRUPTIBLE.

They misunderstand this scripture:


Acts 2:27 because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, you will not let your holy one see decay.


.

Liar. They translate that verse as meaning Jesus. Catechism of the Catholic Church #627. Check it out.
 

RichRock

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However, the CATHOLICS SAY their saint's bodies are INCORRUPTIBLE.

They misunderstand this scripture:


Acts 2:27 because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, you will not let your holy one see decay.


Jesus is the only one whose body has not seen decay.

Here is the Catholic view of that Scripture, in reference to Christ and NOT to saints:

"You will not let your Holy One see corruption"

627 Christ's death was a real death in that it put an end to his earthly human existence. But because of the union his body retained with the person of the Son, his was not a mortal corpse like others, for "divine power preserved Christ's body from corruption." 470 Both of these statements can be said of Christ: "He was cut off out of the land of the living", 471 and "My flesh will dwell in hope. For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, nor let your Holy One see corruption." 472 Jesus' Resurrection "on the third day" was the proof of this, for bodily decay was held to begin on the fourth day after death. 473

Catechism of the Catholic Church #627

Footnotes:
470: Acts 2:24
471: St Thomas Aquinas STh III,51,3
472: Isa 53:8
473: Acts 2:26; cf. Ps 16:9-10
474 Cf. 1 Cor 15:4; Lk 24:46; Matt 12:40; Jon 2:1; Hos 6:2; cf. Jn 11:39
 

Cruciform

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What was fascinating to me about this list is not once did I see, "I am Catholic because Jesus is my Lord and Savior." These are all just hollow justification of man made ceremonies and traditions that have little or nothing to do with salvation.
Given that both Catholics and Protestants claim Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, it isn't a point that's at issue here. No need to mention what is simply a given. Not so "fascinating" after all, it seems.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 

RichRock

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CabinetMaker said:
These are all just hollow justification of man made ceremonies and traditions...

You obviously missed this, number 17:

RichRock said:
17. Protestantism leans too much on mere*traditions of men*(every denomination stems from one Founder's vision. As soon as two or more of these contradict each other, error is necessarily present).

Try harder.
 

Nihilo

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I have to disagree with you on this one. I have looked into these 'incorruptables' and from what I have learnt is they ALL show signs of decay. The ones that don't (which haven't been posted) upon closer inspection are actually wearing wax or silicone masks and hands.

The Church is quite silent on this matter and from what I can make out they say that an 'incorruptable' (non-decompossing) body is not a requirement for Sainthood. They also say that bodies can become incorruptable naturally...i.e.mummies etc. I may be wrong and am open to being corrected on that point.

I would say they all decay, even bodies that show no decay for the first few decades will eventually return to dust if left to natural devices. 'Dust to dust' as they say.

Show me one body that has no decay whatsoever throughout it's torso and looks like it is naturally asleep and alive (so to speak). You won't be able to because there isn't one.

Just my opinion.

And I'll just add that IF there was a body with no decay, say from 500 years ago, we would have a marvel indeed. Imagine, no decay whatsoever...the heart stopped and all cells frozen in time..suspended animation without damage to the bodily tissues etc. In theory we could restart the body, If they had died from a heart attack etc it would be just like someone arresting on a hospital ward today...they die for a minute or two and then are shocked back into life. (this is possible because there is at that point hardly any damage to the brain cells etc through lack of oxygen).

Even if we didn't try to restart the heart, science/biology would be amazed to see it and would HAVE to declare that some people who believed in God do not decay AT ALL when the heart stops....I haven't heard of any scientists/biologists declare or prove this.

This all sounds fantastic, because it is. Everyone's body decays at death, there is no escaping it if you die before Jesus comes back...our whole planet is in decay, as is the sun which will eventually burn up it's gasses in a few billion years or so.
Reason #151: Catholics know when to argue minutia, and when to take a breather from arguing minutia. :thumb:
 

God's Truth

New member
Here is the Catholic view of that Scripture, in reference to Christ and NOT to saints:

"You will not let your Holy One see corruption"

627 Christ's death was a real death in that it put an end to his earthly human existence. But because of the union his body retained with the person of the Son, his was not a mortal corpse like others, for "divine power preserved Christ's body from corruption." 470 Both of these statements can be said of Christ: "He was cut off out of the land of the living", 471 and "My flesh will dwell in hope. For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, nor let your Holy One see corruption." 472 Jesus' Resurrection "on the third day" was the proof of this, for bodily decay was held to begin on the fourth day after death. 473

Catechism of the Catholic Church #627

Footnotes:
470: Acts 2:24
471: St Thomas Aquinas STh III,51,3
472: Isa 53:8
473: Acts 2:26; cf. Ps 16:9-10
474 Cf. 1 Cor 15:4; Lk 24:46; Matt 12:40; Jon 2:1; Hos 6:2; cf. Jn 11:39

Catholics think that is also to those their popes canonize as "Saints".
 

journey

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It's SICK to pray to/worship dead people. Christians pray only to God in the name of Jesus Christ because Jesus Christ is the ONLY mediator between God and men.
 

RichRock

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It's SICK to pray to/worship dead people. Christians pray only to God in the name of Jesus Christ because Jesus Christ is the ONLY mediator between God and men.

Have you ever prayed for someone else? If so, you refute your own statement. Think about it.
.................
Your prayers to saints violate 1 Timothy 2:5, which says, 'There is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.'
"Prayers to saints, asking them to intercede with God for us, do not violate 1 Timothy 2:5. If they did, then every Christian would stand guilty of violating that verse because every Christian prays for other people. After all, what is a mediator? Merely a go-between.

When we pray for others, we act as go-betweens, passing their concerns to God. Fundamentalists regularly ask one another for prayers. They are right to do this because our Lord commanded that we pray for one another. No Fundamentalist will say to another, "No, I won't pray for you. Pray to God straight!" Instead, he'll say, "I'll gladly pray for you, and please pray for me." In so praying he becomes a mediator. This does not violate 1 Timothy 2:5, which is really telling us that our prayers for one another are effectual precisely because Christ is the one mediator. Without his mediation, our prayers would be worthless.*

http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2008/kkeating_worship_feb08.asp

Hope this clears up your misunderstanding.
 

Nihilo

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What do you mean exactly?
Venerating icons, statues, and relics is invaluable to me personally, but it is by no means central to the Catholic faith, and I try to be wary of getting into too heated a discussion about things not central to the Catholic Faith. Your posting helped me remember this.

:)
 

Nihilo

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It's SICK to pray to/worship dead people. Christians pray only to God in the name of Jesus Christ because Jesus Christ is the ONLY mediator between God and men.
You know they're not dead, right? They are with the Lord. They can talk to him.
 

RichRock

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Venerating icons, statues, and relics is invaluable to me personally, but it is by no means central to the Catholic faith, and I try to be wary of getting into too heated a discussion about things not central to the Catholic Faith. Your posting helped me remember this.

:)

Thing is, for me as a protestant on a journey to the Catholic faith, all of it is new, and some of it is strange....and this particular subject is very strange. I am looking for answers to this and the answer of 'don't question' (if you know what I mean) is not enough.

I am quite prepared to say there is no such thing as an incorruptable body, saint or otherwise, unless proven wrong. All bodies decay, simple really. To say otherwise without proof is not going to wash with my inquisitive mind, and if this is Church dogma/doctrine (is it?) then I have a problem with it.
 
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