God's Truth
New member
You always saying, "Straw man" is a straw man.
ECT Why shouldn't I convert from Evangelical Protestant to Catholic?
- Thread starter RichRock
- Start date
You always saying, "Straw man" is a straw man.
God's Truth
New member
Catholic nuns bow to the claimed remains of "St. Theresa".
Acts 10:26 But Peter made him get up. "Stand up," he said, "I am only a man myself."
God's Truth
New member
The head sometimes moved and priests even change her clothing sometimes.
The head of "St. Catherine".
St. Catherine dressed in a black habit.
The head of "St. Catherine".
St. Catherine dressed in a black habit.
WizardofOz
New member
That post was at least partially true. Catholics do believe and teach that the decayed body itself is where healing comes.
WizardofOz
New member
First, you're missing the point being that the body is where the healing comes from.
Second
That doesn't look at all decayed to you? :AMR:
You must not have read your own link (I notice a pattern here)
| Godly intervention allows some human bodies (specifically saints and beati) to avoid the normal process of decomposition after death as a sign of their holiness. Bodies that undergo little or no decomposition, or delayed decomposition, are sometimes referred to as incorrupt or incorruptible. |
Can you show me one that has absolutely no decomposition?
I didn't miss it.
Saint Catherine departed in the 15th century. Decay, after over 500 years, looks . . . like dust. Like nothing.Second
That doesn't look at all decayed to you? :AMR:
OK, maybe a bone or two. But certainly not even the hint of flesh. That's not decay.
God's Truth
New member
First, you're missing the point being that the body is where the healing comes from.
Second
That doesn't look at all decayed to you? :AMR:
You must not have read your own link (I notice a pattern here)
Godly intervention allows some human bodies (specifically saints and beati) to avoid the normal process of decomposition after death as a sign of their holiness. Bodies that undergo little or no decomposition, or delayed decomposition, are sometimes referred to as incorrupt or incorruptible.
Can you show me one that has absolutely no decomposition?
Jesus' body is the only one who whose body was not left to decomposition/corruption.
Acts 2:27 because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, you will not let your holy one see decay.
Anyone who can see, they can see that those bodies are decayed.
WizardofOz
New member
Do you know what tooth decay looks like? How do her teeth look?
You are in denial and the wiki article you cited mentions slower or delayed decomposition.
You see no decomposition at all in Saint Catherine's head? :AMR:
I see a dried up human corpse. Not decayed nor decomposed.
We covered relics a couple of days ago, I don't need to recover old ground again, thanks.
Today was about Muslims and Catholics, interesting subject but already covered in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Let's look at this from a different perspective, the Catholic's perspective of protestantism for a change.
Post '150 reasons why I'm Catholic' to follow...
Today was about Muslims and Catholics, interesting subject but already covered in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Let's look at this from a different perspective, the Catholic's perspective of protestantism for a change.
Post '150 reasons why I'm Catholic' to follow...
Last edited:
WizardofOz
New member
the river denial flows
the river denial flows
There why are there rotted/missing teeth?
Simply 'drying out' would not effect teeth. :think:
Believe what you want. There is no reasoning with the most dogmatic of you, that much is clear.
the river denial flows
There why are there rotted/missing teeth?
Simply 'drying out' would not effect teeth. :think:
Believe what you want. There is no reasoning with the most dogmatic of you, that much is clear.
We already covered relics two days ago, I really can't be bothered to cover old ground.
Let's look at protestantism from a Catholic angle, this article resonates well with what I am coming to believe.
150 Reasons why I am Catholic. Here's the first 31 reasons....discuss. (Ps this person was a Baptist who converted to Catholicism)
1.*Best One-Sentence Summary: I am convinced that the Catholic Church conforms much more closely to all of the*biblical data, offers the only coherent view of thehistory of Christianity*(i.e., Christian, apostolic Tradition), and possesses the most profound and sublime Christian morality, spirituality, social ethic, and philosophy.
2.*Alternate: I am a Catholic because I sincerely believe, by virtue of much cumulative evidence, that Catholicism is*true, and that the Catholic Church is the visible Church divinely-established by our Lord Jesus, against which the gates of hell cannot and will not prevail (Mt 16:18), thereby possessing an*authority*to which I feel bound in Christian duty to submit.
3.*2nd Alternate: I left Protestantism because it was seriously deficient in its interpretation of the Bible (e.g., "faith alone" and many other "Catholic" doctrines - see evidences below), inconsistently selective in its espousal of various Catholic Traditions (e.g., the Canon of the Bible), inadequate in its ecclesiology, lacking a sensible view of Christian history (e.g., "Scripture alone"), compromised morally (e.g., contraception, divorce), and unbiblically schismatic, anarchical, and relativistic. I don't therefore believe that Protestantism is all bad (not by a long shot), but these are some of the major deficiencies I eventually saw as fatal to the "theory" of Protestantism, over against Catholicism. All Catholics must regard baptized, Nicene, Chalcedonian Protestants as Christians
.
4. Catholicism isn't formally*divided and sectarian*(Jn 17:20-23;*Rom 16:17;*1 Cor 1:10-13).
5. Catholic*unity*makes Christianity and Jesus more believable to the world (Jn 17:23).
6. Catholicism, because of its unified, complete, fully supernatural Christian vision, mitigates againstsecularization and humanism.
7. Catholicism avoids an unbiblical*individualism*which undermines Christian community (e.g.,*1 Cor 12:25-26).
8. Catholicism avoids*theological*relativism, by means of dogmatic certainty and the centrality of the papacy.
9. Catholicism avoids*ecclesiological anarchism*- one cannot merely jump to another denomination when some disciplinary measure or censure is called for.
10. Catholicism formally (although, sadly, not always in practice) prevents the theological*relativism*which leads to the uncertainties within the Protestant system among laypeople.
11. Catholicism rejects the*"State Church,"*which has led to governments dominating Christianity rather than vice-versa.
12. Protestant State Churches greatly influenced the rise of*nationalism, which mitigated against universal equality and Christian universalism (i.e., Catholicism).
13. Unified Catholic Christendom (before the 16th century) had not been plagued by the tragic*religious wars*which in turn led to the "Enlightenment," in which men rejected the hypocrisy of inter-Christian warfare and decided to become indifferent to religion rather than letting it guide their lives.
14. Catholicism retains the elements of*mystery, supernatural, and the*sacred*in Christianity, thus opposing itself to*secularization, where the sphere of the religious in life becomes greatly limited.
15. Protestant individualism led to the*privatization*of Christianity, whereby it is little respected in societal and political life, leaving the "public square" barren of Christian influence.
16. The secular false dichotomy of*"church vs. world"has led committed orthodox Christians, by and large, to withdraw from politics, leaving a void filled by pagans, cynics, unscrupulous, and power-hungry. Catholicism offers a framework in which to approach the state and civic responsibility.
17. Protestantism leans too much on mere*traditions of men*(every denomination stems from one Founder's vision. As soon as two or more of these contradict each other, error is necessarily present).
18. Protestant churches (esp. evangelicals), are far too often guilty of putting their pastors on too high of a pedestal. In effect,*every pastor becomes a "pope,"*to varying degrees (some are "super-popes"). Because of this, evangelical congregations often experience a severe crisis and/or split up when a pastor leaves, thus proving that their philosophy is overly man-centered, rather than God-centered.
19. Protestantism, due to lack of real authority and dogmatic structure, is tragically prone to accommodation to the*spirit of the age, and*moral faddism.
20. Catholicism retains*apostolic succession, necessary to know what is true Christian apostolic Tradition. It was the criterion of Christian truth used by the early Christians.
21. Many Protestants take a dim view towards*Christian history*in general, esp. the years from 313 (Constantine's conversion) to 1517 (Luther's arrival). This ignorance and hostility to Catholic Tradition leads to theological relativism, anti-Catholicism, and a constant, unnecessary process of "reinventing the wheel."
22. Protestantism from its inception was*anti-Catholic, and remains so to this day (esp. evangelicalism). This is obviously wrong and unbiblical if Catholicism is indeed Christian (if it isn't, then - logically - neither is Protestantism, which inherited the bulk of its theology from Catholicism). The Catholic Church, on the other hand, is not anti-Protestant.
23. The Catholic Church accepts the authority of the great*Ecumenical Councils*(see, e.g.,*Acts 15) which defined and developed Christian doctrine (much of which Protestantism also accepts).
24. Most Protestants do not have*bishops, a Christian office which is biblical (1 Tim 3:1-2) and which has existed from the earliest Christian history and Tradition.
25. Protestantism has no way of*settling doctrinal issues*definitively. At best, the individual Protestant can only take a head count of how many Protestant scholars, commentators, etc. take such-and-such a view on Doctrine X, Y, or Z. There is no unified Protestant Tradition.
26. Protestantism arose in 1517, and is a "Johnny-come-lately" in the history of Christianity. Therefore it cannot possibly be the "restoration" of "pure", "primitive" Christianity, since this is ruled out by the fact of its*absurdly late appearance. Christianity must have historic continuity or it is not Christianity. Protestantism is necessarily a "parasite" of Catholicism, historically and doctrinally speaking.
27. The Protestant notion of the*"invisible church"*is also novel in the history of Christianity and foreign to the Bible (Mt 5:14;*Mt 16:18), therefore untrue.
28. When Protestant theologians speak of the teaching of early Christianity (e.g., when refuting "cults"), they say "the Church taught . . ." (as it was then unified), but when they refer to the present they instinctively and inconsistently refrain from such terminology, sinceuniversal teaching authority*now clearly resides only in the Catholic Church.
29. The Protestant principle of*private judgment*has created a milieu (esp. in Protestant America) in which (invariably) man-centered "cults" such as Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, and Christian Science arise. The very notion that one can "start" a new, or "the true" Church is Protestant to the core.
30. The lack of a*definitive teaching authority*in Protestant (as with the Catholic magisterium) makes many individual Protestants think that they have a direct line to God, notwithstanding all of Christian Tradition and the history of biblical exegesis (a*"Bible, Holy Spirit and me" mentality). Such people are generally under-educated theologically, unteachable, lack humility, and have no business making presumed "infallible" statements about the nature of Christianity.
31. Evangelicalism's*"techniques" of evangelism*are often contrived and manipulative, certainly not directly derived from the text of the Bible. Some even resemble brainwashing to a degree.
Source: http://www.ourcatholicfaith.org/reasons.html
opcorn:
Let's look at protestantism from a Catholic angle, this article resonates well with what I am coming to believe.
150 Reasons why I am Catholic. Here's the first 31 reasons....discuss. (Ps this person was a Baptist who converted to Catholicism)
1.*Best One-Sentence Summary: I am convinced that the Catholic Church conforms much more closely to all of the*biblical data, offers the only coherent view of thehistory of Christianity*(i.e., Christian, apostolic Tradition), and possesses the most profound and sublime Christian morality, spirituality, social ethic, and philosophy.
2.*Alternate: I am a Catholic because I sincerely believe, by virtue of much cumulative evidence, that Catholicism is*true, and that the Catholic Church is the visible Church divinely-established by our Lord Jesus, against which the gates of hell cannot and will not prevail (Mt 16:18), thereby possessing an*authority*to which I feel bound in Christian duty to submit.
3.*2nd Alternate: I left Protestantism because it was seriously deficient in its interpretation of the Bible (e.g., "faith alone" and many other "Catholic" doctrines - see evidences below), inconsistently selective in its espousal of various Catholic Traditions (e.g., the Canon of the Bible), inadequate in its ecclesiology, lacking a sensible view of Christian history (e.g., "Scripture alone"), compromised morally (e.g., contraception, divorce), and unbiblically schismatic, anarchical, and relativistic. I don't therefore believe that Protestantism is all bad (not by a long shot), but these are some of the major deficiencies I eventually saw as fatal to the "theory" of Protestantism, over against Catholicism. All Catholics must regard baptized, Nicene, Chalcedonian Protestants as Christians
.
4. Catholicism isn't formally*divided and sectarian*(Jn 17:20-23;*Rom 16:17;*1 Cor 1:10-13).
5. Catholic*unity*makes Christianity and Jesus more believable to the world (Jn 17:23).
6. Catholicism, because of its unified, complete, fully supernatural Christian vision, mitigates againstsecularization and humanism.
7. Catholicism avoids an unbiblical*individualism*which undermines Christian community (e.g.,*1 Cor 12:25-26).
8. Catholicism avoids*theological*relativism, by means of dogmatic certainty and the centrality of the papacy.
9. Catholicism avoids*ecclesiological anarchism*- one cannot merely jump to another denomination when some disciplinary measure or censure is called for.
10. Catholicism formally (although, sadly, not always in practice) prevents the theological*relativism*which leads to the uncertainties within the Protestant system among laypeople.
11. Catholicism rejects the*"State Church,"*which has led to governments dominating Christianity rather than vice-versa.
12. Protestant State Churches greatly influenced the rise of*nationalism, which mitigated against universal equality and Christian universalism (i.e., Catholicism).
13. Unified Catholic Christendom (before the 16th century) had not been plagued by the tragic*religious wars*which in turn led to the "Enlightenment," in which men rejected the hypocrisy of inter-Christian warfare and decided to become indifferent to religion rather than letting it guide their lives.
14. Catholicism retains the elements of*mystery, supernatural, and the*sacred*in Christianity, thus opposing itself to*secularization, where the sphere of the religious in life becomes greatly limited.
15. Protestant individualism led to the*privatization*of Christianity, whereby it is little respected in societal and political life, leaving the "public square" barren of Christian influence.
16. The secular false dichotomy of*"church vs. world"has led committed orthodox Christians, by and large, to withdraw from politics, leaving a void filled by pagans, cynics, unscrupulous, and power-hungry. Catholicism offers a framework in which to approach the state and civic responsibility.
17. Protestantism leans too much on mere*traditions of men*(every denomination stems from one Founder's vision. As soon as two or more of these contradict each other, error is necessarily present).
18. Protestant churches (esp. evangelicals), are far too often guilty of putting their pastors on too high of a pedestal. In effect,*every pastor becomes a "pope,"*to varying degrees (some are "super-popes"). Because of this, evangelical congregations often experience a severe crisis and/or split up when a pastor leaves, thus proving that their philosophy is overly man-centered, rather than God-centered.
19. Protestantism, due to lack of real authority and dogmatic structure, is tragically prone to accommodation to the*spirit of the age, and*moral faddism.
20. Catholicism retains*apostolic succession, necessary to know what is true Christian apostolic Tradition. It was the criterion of Christian truth used by the early Christians.
21. Many Protestants take a dim view towards*Christian history*in general, esp. the years from 313 (Constantine's conversion) to 1517 (Luther's arrival). This ignorance and hostility to Catholic Tradition leads to theological relativism, anti-Catholicism, and a constant, unnecessary process of "reinventing the wheel."
22. Protestantism from its inception was*anti-Catholic, and remains so to this day (esp. evangelicalism). This is obviously wrong and unbiblical if Catholicism is indeed Christian (if it isn't, then - logically - neither is Protestantism, which inherited the bulk of its theology from Catholicism). The Catholic Church, on the other hand, is not anti-Protestant.
23. The Catholic Church accepts the authority of the great*Ecumenical Councils*(see, e.g.,*Acts 15) which defined and developed Christian doctrine (much of which Protestantism also accepts).
24. Most Protestants do not have*bishops, a Christian office which is biblical (1 Tim 3:1-2) and which has existed from the earliest Christian history and Tradition.
25. Protestantism has no way of*settling doctrinal issues*definitively. At best, the individual Protestant can only take a head count of how many Protestant scholars, commentators, etc. take such-and-such a view on Doctrine X, Y, or Z. There is no unified Protestant Tradition.
26. Protestantism arose in 1517, and is a "Johnny-come-lately" in the history of Christianity. Therefore it cannot possibly be the "restoration" of "pure", "primitive" Christianity, since this is ruled out by the fact of its*absurdly late appearance. Christianity must have historic continuity or it is not Christianity. Protestantism is necessarily a "parasite" of Catholicism, historically and doctrinally speaking.
27. The Protestant notion of the*"invisible church"*is also novel in the history of Christianity and foreign to the Bible (Mt 5:14;*Mt 16:18), therefore untrue.
28. When Protestant theologians speak of the teaching of early Christianity (e.g., when refuting "cults"), they say "the Church taught . . ." (as it was then unified), but when they refer to the present they instinctively and inconsistently refrain from such terminology, sinceuniversal teaching authority*now clearly resides only in the Catholic Church.
29. The Protestant principle of*private judgment*has created a milieu (esp. in Protestant America) in which (invariably) man-centered "cults" such as Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, and Christian Science arise. The very notion that one can "start" a new, or "the true" Church is Protestant to the core.
30. The lack of a*definitive teaching authority*in Protestant (as with the Catholic magisterium) makes many individual Protestants think that they have a direct line to God, notwithstanding all of Christian Tradition and the history of biblical exegesis (a*"Bible, Holy Spirit and me" mentality). Such people are generally under-educated theologically, unteachable, lack humility, and have no business making presumed "infallible" statements about the nature of Christianity.
31. Evangelicalism's*"techniques" of evangelism*are often contrived and manipulative, certainly not directly derived from the text of the Bible. Some even resemble brainwashing to a degree.
Source: http://www.ourcatholicfaith.org/reasons.html
opcorn:
After 500 years, the only possible reason, that a saint's corpse
is missing some of her teeth, is because of tooth decay? My
first thought was, "They probably fell out (because of the dryness)
and got lost."
:think:
Believe what you want. There is no reasoning with the most dogmatic of you, that much is clear.[/QUOTE]
It doesn't matter. Her special gift is teaching doctrine and teaching morals. In this department, she's doing just fine.
Now lets be honest, I don't think your mind is receptive to Church history, is it?
I have to disagree with you on this one. I have looked into these 'incorruptables' and from what I have learnt is they ALL show signs of decay. The ones that don't (which haven't been posted) upon closer inspection are actually wearing wax or silicone masks and hands.
The Church is quite silent on this matter and from what I can make out they say that an 'incorruptable' (non-decompossing) body is not a requirement for Sainthood. They also say that bodies can become incorruptable naturally...i.e.mummies etc. I may be wrong and am open to being corrected on that point.
I would say they all decay, even bodies that show no decay for the first few decades will eventually return to dust if left to natural devices. 'Dust to dust' as they say.
Show me one body that has no decay whatsoever throughout it's torso and looks like it is naturally asleep and alive (so to speak). You won't be able to because there isn't one.
Just my opinion.