Who is a Jew or the nation Israel

[chair]

Again, Judaism has always opposed God and Christianity !

I gather that God did not exist before our Jeiwsh brother Jesus was born.

 

[beloved57]

Judaism does nothing, people do. There are people in Judaism that oppose God and Christianity. Now that is true.

Again, Judaism has always opposed God and Christianity ! And I know its people !

 

[beloved57]

I gather that God did not exist before our Jeiwsh brother Jesus was born.

Rabbit Trail !

 

[CherubRam]

I'm bumping this thread for those who have not read it yet.

 

[CherubRam]

A bump for any who have not read this thread.

 

[CherubRam]

Exodus 4:22
22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Israel is My son, My firstborn.


In the verse above, Israel is being used to mean nation.

Genesis 32:28
Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.”

 

[daqq]

Exodus 4:22
22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Israel is My son, My firstborn.

In the verse above, Israel is being used to mean nation.

Genesis 32:28
Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.”

Was just discussing that recently elsewhere in two other places:

Jesus Christ is Israel,

:thumb:

Was just discussing that recently elsewhere:

"If Moshe and the Prophets not they hear: neither would they be convinced if someone arose from the dead."

Exodus 3:1-6
1. Now Moshe kept the flock of Yithro, his father in law, Priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mount of ha-Elohim, Horeb.
2. And the Malak-Angel of YHWH appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
3. And Moshe said, I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
4. And when YHWH saw that he turned aside to see, Elohim called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moshe, Moshe! And he said, Here am I.
5. And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off your shoes from off your feet, for the place whereon you stand is holy ground.
6. Moreover he said, I am Elohey of your father, Elohey Abraham, Elohey Yitschaq, and Elohey Yakob. And Moshe hid his face because he feared to look toward ha-Elohim.

But Matthew and Mark quote Exo 3:6 while Luke quotes Exo 3:15, (YHWH Elohim).

Was just discussing that recently elsewhere.

Isaiah 45:3 Transliterated Unaccented
3. Wnatatiy lka 'owtsrowt choshek uwmaTmuney mictariym, lma`an teda` kiy- 'niy YHWH ha-Qowre' bshimka 'Elohey Yisra'el.

Isaiah 45:1-5
1. Thus says YHWH to His Mashiyach, to Koresh, [LXX - "Kuros" which is the root for Kurios] whose right hand I have taken hold of, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut:
2. I will go before you, and make the crooked places straight; I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:
3. And I will give you the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, [hidden from the foundation of the world - Matthew 13:35] that you may know that I am YHWH, Who calls you by your name: 'Elohey Yisra'el.
4. For the sake of Yaakob My servant, and Yisrael My chosen-elect, I have even called you by your name: I have surnamed you, ["Elohey Yisrael"] though you have not known Me!
5. I am YHWH, and there is none else, there is no Elohim beside Me: I gird you, though you have not known Me:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4531697&postcount=8

Exodus 4:22
22. And you shall say unto Pharaoh, Thus says YHWH, Yisrael is My Son, My Firstborn!

In addition the Septuagint version of Exodus 4:22 reads Prototokos.
And all the Prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yochanan, (Matthew 11:13).

Perhaps Malak Yisrael gave his name to Yakob, (Yisrael) in Genesis 32:28? :chuckle:

 

[Interplanner]

Who is a Jew or the nation Israel.
This is what God has spoken through His prophets.


Genesis 17:3
Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4. "As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5. No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations. 6. I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7. I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you.


Genesis 35:11
And God said to him, "I am God Almighty; be fruitful and increase in number. A nation and a community of nations will come from you, and kings will come from your body.


Exodus 12:37
The Israelites journeyed from Rameses to Succoth. There were about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children. 38. Many other people went up with them, as well as large droves of livestock, both flocks and herds.


Leviticus 19:34
The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.


Leviticus 24:22
You are to have the same law for the alien and the native-born. I am the LORD your God.


Numbers 15:15
The community is to have the same rules for you and for the alien living among you; this is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. You and the alien shall be the same before the LORD :


Joshua 8:33
All Israel, aliens and citizens alike, with their elders, officials and judges, were standing on both sides of the ark of the covenant of the LORD, facing those who carried it—the priests, who were Levites. Half of the people stood in front of Mount Gerizim and half of them in front of Mount Ebal, as Moses the servant of the LORD had formerly commanded when he gave instructions to bless the people of Israel.


Esther 8:17
In every province and in every city, wherever the edict of the king went, there was joy and gladness among the Jews, with feasting and celebrating. And many people of other nationalities became Jews because fear of the Jews had seized them.

The word "Jew" was a nickname assigned by the Babylonians to anyone who either lived in or came from the area of Judea.

Psalm 2:4
The One enthroned in heaven laughs; the Lord scoffs at them. 5. Then he rebukes them in his anger and terrifies them in his wrath, saying, 6. "I have installed my King
on Zion, my holy hill." 7. I will proclaim the decree of the LORD : He said to me, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father. 8. Ask of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession.


Psalm 82:8
Rise up, O God, judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance.


Psalm 111:6
He has shown his people the power of his works, giving them the lands of other nations.


Isaiah 9:3
You have enlarged the nation and increased their joy; they rejoice before you as people rejoice at the harvest, as men rejoice when dividing the plunder.


Isaiah 14:1
The LORD will have compassion on Jacob; once again he will choose Israel and will settle them in their own land. Aliens will join them and unite with the house of Jacob.


Isaiah 26:15
You have enlarged the nation, O LORD; you have enlarged the nation. You have gained glory for yourself; you have extended all the borders of the land.


Isaiah 44:5
One will say, 'I belong to the LORD '; another will call himself by the name of Jacob; still another will write on his hand, ['The LORD's / Yahwah],' and will take the name Israel.


Isaiah 56:3
Let no foreigner who has bound himself to the LORD say, "The LORD will surely exclude me from his people."- 6. And foreigners who bind themselves to the LORD to serve him, to love the name of the LORD, and to worship him, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it
and who hold fast to my covenant-
7. these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations."
8. The Sovereign LORD declares— he who gathers the exiles of Israel: "I will gather still others to them besides those already gathered."


Ezekiel 47
21. "You are to distribute this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. 22. You are to allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the aliens who have settled among you and who have children. You are to consider them as native-born Israelites; along with you they are to be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. 23. In whatever tribe the alien settles, there you are to give him his inheritance," declares the Sovereign LORD.


Zechariah 2:10
"Shout and be glad, O Daughter of Zion. For I am coming, and I will live among you," declares the LORD. 11. "Many nations will be joined with the LORD in that day and will become my people. I will live among you and you will know that the LORD Almighty has sent me to you. 12. The LORD will inherit Judah as his portion in the holy land and will again choose Jerusalem. 13. Be still before the LORD, all mankind, because he has roused himself from his holy dwelling."


Matthew 12:21
In his name the nations will put their hope."


The Parable of the Tenants
Luke 20
9. He went on to tell the people this parable: "A man planted a vineyard, rented it to some farmers and went away for a long time. 10. At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenants so they would give him some of the fruit of the vineyard. But the tenants beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 11. He sent another servant, but that one also they beat and treated shamefully and sent away empty-handed. 12. He sent still a third, and they wounded him and threw him out.
13. "Then the owner of the vineyard said, 'What shall I do? I will send my son, whom I love; perhaps they will respect him.' 14. "But when the tenants saw him, they talked the matter over. 'This is the heir,' they said. 'Let's kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.' 15. So they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. "What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? 16. He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others." When the people heard this, they said, "May this never be!" 17. Jesus looked directly at them and asked, "Then what is the meaning of that which is written:

" 'The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone? 18. Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces, and he on whom it falls will be crushed."

19. The teachers of the law and the chief priests looked for a way to arrest him immediately, because they knew he had spoken this parable against them. But they were afraid of the people.


Acts 3:25
And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, 'Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.'


Romans 2:28
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


Romans 3:29
Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,


Romans 4:13
It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14. For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15. because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
16. Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17. As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.


Romans 4:18
Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, "So shall your offspring be."


Romans 8:17
Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.


Romans 9:6
It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8. In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.


Romans 9:24
even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?


Romans 10:12
For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,...


Romans 10:19
Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says, "I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;...


1 Corinthians 14:21
In the Law it is written: "Through men of strange tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord.


Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.


Ephesians 2:19
Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household,...


Ephesians 3:6
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.


Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.


Galatians 3:29
If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Colossians 3:11
Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.


Titus 3:7
so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.


Revelation 2:9
I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.


Revelation 3:9
I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.


Isaiah 65:15
You will leave your name to my chosen ones as a curse; the Sovereign LORD will put you to death, but to his servants he will give another name.

Acts 11:26
and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called [Christians / Messianics] first at Antioch.


A Jew is a convert to Orthodox Judaism and the Hebrews are an ethnic group of people.

Contrary to popular belief, Jews are not a race, but an assembly of people. Hebrews are a race.

A Hebrew may or may not be a Jew.

You can save a lot of space by just doing a treatment of Rom 9:6 plus, with all the original terms sorted out: tekna vs sperma.

 

[CherubRam]

Was just discussing that recently elsewhere in two other places:



Perhaps Malak Yisrael gave his name to Yakob, (Yisrael) in Genesis 32:28? :chuckle:

The "Messenger of Yahwah" was Peniel, whom was born Yahshua. Peniel, born "Yahshua," he gave Yakob the name Yisrael.

 

[CherubRam]

You can save a lot of space by just doing a treatment of Rom 9:6 plus, with all the original terms sorted out: tekna vs sperma.

The over kill is for those who would have any doubt.

 

[daqq]

The "Messenger of Yahwah" was Peniel, whom was born Yahshua. Peniel, born "Yahshua," he gave Yakob the name Yisrael.

That would be from the compound, (Seven Elohim-Angels in his right hand) Arsayalalyur/Asaryalalyur-Asariel-Sariel-Uriel-Phanuel who is Yistrael-Istrael, (which is a corruption of Yisrael-Israel found in a Greek manuscript of Enoch 10:1 and in Jubilees 31:15 as well as other places).

Perhaps continue your searches and studies here:

JUBILEES 6. THE ETHIOPIC AND LATIN VERSIONS-TRANSLATIONS FROM THE GREEK. Like all the biblical literature in Ethiopic, Jubilees was translated into Ethiopic from the Greek. Greek words such as [drus, balanos, lips, schinos, pharaggs, &c., are transliterated into Ethiopic. Secondly, many passages must be retranslated into Greek before we can discover the source of their corruptions. And finally, many names are transliterated as they appear in Greek and not in Hebrew. That the Latin is derived directly from the Greek is no less obvious. Thus in xxxix. 12 [(Lt.) timoris = (Gk.) deilias], a corruption of douleias; in xxxviii. 13 [(Lt.) honorem = (Gk.) timen], which should have been rendered by (Lt.) tributum. Another class of mistranslations may be seen in passages where the Greek article is rendered by the Latin demonstrative as in (Lt.) huius Abrahae xxix. i6, huic Istrael xxxi. 15. Other evidence pointing in the same direction is to be found in the Greek constructions which have been reproduced in the Latin; such as xvii. 3 (Lt.) mem or fuit sermones' = (Gk.) hemnesthe tous logous: in xv. 22 (Lt.) consummavit loquens = (Gk.) Sunetelese lalon: in xxii. 8 (Lt.) 'in omnibus quibus dedisti' = en pasin ois edokas. http://www.ccel.org/c/charles/otpseudepig/jubilee/index.htm

:sheep:

 

[daqq]

Also Sariel is hinted in the text:

Genesis 32:28 Transliterated
28. (32:29 in Heb.) Wayo'mer, Lo' Ya`qob ye'amer `owd shimka kiy 'im- Yisra'el kiy- sariyta `im- 'Elohiym w`im-'nashiym watuwkal!

"Sariy-ta `im 'Elohiym" ~ "A Prince you [are/have been] with Elohim"

Genesis 32:28
28. And he said, No more shall your name be called Yakob, but Yisrael, because you have been a prince [sariy-ta] with Elohim, and with men, and have overcome!

Sariel = Yisrael

 

[Crucible]

'Support Israel' is an obsession many Christians have stumbled upon, next to the Liberal obsession of defending the reputation of Muslims.

Meanwhile, their own countries are falling apart. So much for Christian prominence.

 

[CherubRam]

Also Sariel is hinted in the text:

Genesis 32:28 Transliterated
28. (32:29 in Heb.) Wayo'mer, Lo' Ya`qob ye'amer `owd shimka kiy 'im- Yisra'el kiy- sariyta `im- 'Elohiym w`im-'nashiym watuwkal!

"Sariy-ta `im 'Elohiym" ~ "A Prince you [are/have been] with Elohim"

Genesis 32:28
28. And he said, No more shall your name be called Yakob, but Yisrael, because you have been a prince [sariy-ta] with Elohim, and with men, and have overcome!

Sariel = Yisrael

Sariel = Yisrael / Can you offer a better explanation? Are you working from the KJV? SAR would be leader or minister, but not prince.

 

[CherubRam]

That would be from the compound, (Seven Elohim-Angels in his right hand) Arsayalalyur/Asaryalalyur-Asariel-Sariel-Uriel-Phanuel who is Yistrael-Istrael, (which is a corruption of Yisrael-Israel found in a Greek manuscript of Enoch 10:1 and in Jubilees 31:15 as well as other places).

Perhaps continue your searches and studies here:

JUBILEES 6. THE ETHIOPIC AND LATIN VERSIONS-TRANSLATIONS FROM THE GREEK. Like all the biblical literature in Ethiopic, Jubilees was translated into Ethiopic from the Greek. Greek words such as [drus, balanos, lips, schinos, pharaggs, &c., are transliterated into Ethiopic. Secondly, many passages must be retranslated into Greek before we can discover the source of their corruptions. And finally, many names are transliterated as they appear in Greek and not in Hebrew. That the Latin is derived directly from the Greek is no less obvious. Thus in xxxix. 12 [(Lt.) timoris = (Gk.) deilias], a corruption of douleias; in xxxviii. 13 [(Lt.) honorem = (Gk.) timen], which should have been rendered by (Lt.) tributum. Another class of mistranslations may be seen in passages where the Greek article is rendered by the Latin demonstrative as in (Lt.) huius Abrahae xxix. i6, huic Istrael xxxi. 15. Other evidence pointing in the same direction is to be found in the Greek constructions which have been reproduced in the Latin; such as xvii. 3 (Lt.) mem or fuit sermones' = (Gk.) hemnesthe tous logous: in xv. 22 (Lt.) consummavit loquens = (Gk.) Sunetelese lalon: in xxii. 8 (Lt.) 'in omnibus quibus dedisti' = en pasin ois edokas. http://www.ccel.org/c/charles/otpseudepig/jubilee/index.htm

:sheep:

Phanuel is an alternate spelling for Peniel. Peniel is Phanuel.

 

[Gurucam]

Who is a Jew or the nation Israel?

They are people who deny and renounce the Lord Jesus.

It is reported that: the law of Jewish Rabbis, for those seeking to live in Israel, is as follow:

One must clearly show one's Jewish heritage through some complicated red tape approach (this is the slow track approach) . . . [size=+2]Or[/size] totally denounce the Lord Jesus (this is the fast track approach).

That is O.K. for them, in their 'land'. They esteem the law, sin and punishment in hell and they will be dealt with under the law, sin and punishment in hell. Everyone knows where they stand. They are forthright about their approach to life (they are not like some people who are doing the same thing covertly).

However the approach of the Jews is not acceptable outside of their 'land'. Any one doing that among Christians are false prophets who came in Jesus' name. They are false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage (i.e. under the law, sin and punishment in hell)

Galatians: 2 KJV N.T.
4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage (i.e. under the law, sin and punishment in hell) :

Acts: 13 KJV N.T.
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Romans: 3 KJV N.T.
21 But now (since 2000 odd years ago) the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

2 Corinthians: 3 KJV N.T.
17 Now (since 2000 odd years ago) the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

 

[daqq]

Phanuel is an alternate spelling for Peniel. Peniel is Phanuel.

Yes, I know, that is why when you said Peniel I said Phanuel.

Sariel = Yisrael / Can you offer a better explanation? Are you working from the KJV? SAR would be leader or minister, but not prince.

Sar can be a minister, a leader, or even a "head", (as rendered in Young's Literal Bible Translation) but can be and certainly is rendered also as prince like as it is in Isaiah 9:6 KJV, "Prince of Peace", (Sar Shalom) and in Daniel 8:25 KJV, "Prince of princes", (Sar sariym) and from Daniel 10:20, "Prince of Persia", (Sar Parac) and "Prince of Grecia", (Sar Yavan) and so on, and so on:

Daniel 12:1 KJV
1. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince [haSar haGadol] which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

 

[CherubRam]

Yes, I know, that is why when you said Peniel I said Phanuel.



Sar can be a minister, a leader, or even a "head", (as rendered in Young's Literal Bible Translation) but can be and certainly is rendered also as prince like as it is in Isaiah 9:6 KJV, "Prince of Peace", (Sar Shalom) and in Daniel 8:25 KJV, "Prince of princes", (Sar sariym) and from Daniel 10:20, "Prince of Persia", (Sar Parac) and "Prince of Grecia", (Sar Yavan) and so on, and so on:

Daniel 12:1 KJV
1. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince [haSar haGadol] which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Prince, Minister, Leader, Sar

Brown-Driver-Briggs makes a very good argument for the word "sar" meaning royalty, in Assyrian. (King) However, using another language to translate a word can be both helpful, and misleading. What they did not take into consideration is the fact that royalty also acted as ministers. (As in, ministering in peace.) Or (Minister of the faith.) The Hebrew word "Sar" is best translated as "Minister." The Hebrew word "Sar" should never be given a translation as having to do with royalty.


Brown-Driver-Briggs
שַׂר420 noun masculine chieftain, chief, ruler, official, captain, prince (Late Hebrew especially of angels; Assyrian šarru, king)

 

[CherubRam]

Yes, I know, that is why when you said Peniel I said Phanuel.



Sar can be a minister, a leader, or even a "head", (as rendered in Young's Literal Bible Translation) but can be and certainly is rendered also as prince like as it is in Isaiah 9:6 KJV, "Prince of Peace", (Sar Shalom) and in Daniel 8:25 KJV, "Prince of princes", (Sar sariym) and from Daniel 10:20, "Prince of Persia", (Sar Parac) and "Prince of Grecia", (Sar Yavan) and so on, and so on:

Daniel 12:1 KJV
1. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince [haSar haGadol] which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Daniel 12:1New International Version (NIV)
The End Times

12 “At that time Michael, the great (prince / minister) who protects your people, will arise. (rise up) There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

Michael is a man born in the last days according to Enoch and also the Dead Sea Scrolls.

 

[CherubRam]

They are people who deny and renounce the Lord Jesus.

It is reported that: the law of Jewish Rabbis, for those seeking to live in Israel, is as follow:

One must clearly show one's Jewish heritage through some complicated red tape approach (this is the slow track approach) . . . [size=+2]Or[/size] totally denounce the Lord Jesus (this is the fast track approach).

That is O.K. for them, in their 'land'. They esteem the law, sin and punishment in hell and they will be dealt with under the law, sin and punishment in hell. Everyone knows where they stand. They are forthright about their approach to life (they are not like some people who are doing the same thing covertly).

However the approach of the Jews is not acceptable outside of their 'land'. Any one doing that among Christians are false prophets who came in Jesus' name. They are false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage (i.e. under the law, sin and punishment in hell)

Hell has never been a teaching in Judaism. There are some Rabbi's who believe Yahshua was the messiah, but they keep it to themselves. The moral laws of God have not been done away with under the New Covenant.