Who is a Jew or the nation Israel

CherubRam

New member
Who is a Jew or the nation Israel.
This is what God has spoken through His prophets.


Genesis 17:3

Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4. "As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5. No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations. 6. I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7. I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you.


Genesis 35:11
And God said to him, "I am God Almighty; be fruitful and increase in number. A nation and a community of nations will come from you, and kings will come from your body.


Exodus 12:37
The Israelites journeyed from Rameses to Succoth. There were about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children. 38. Many other people went up with them, as well as large droves of livestock, both flocks and herds.


Leviticus 19:34
The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.


Leviticus 24:22
You are to have the same law for the alien and the native-born. I am the LORD your God.


Numbers 15:15
The community is to have the same rules for you and for the alien living among you; this is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. You and the alien shall be the same before the LORD :


Joshua 8:33
All Israel, aliens and citizens alike, with their elders, officials and judges, were standing on both sides of the ark of the covenant of the LORD, facing those who carried it—the priests, who were Levites. Half of the people stood in front of Mount Gerizim and half of them in front of Mount Ebal, as Moses the servant of the LORD had formerly commanded when he gave instructions to bless the people of Israel.


Esther 8:17
In every province and in every city, wherever the edict of the king went, there was joy and gladness among the Jews, with feasting and celebrating. And many people of other nationalities became Jews because fear of the Jews had seized them.

The word "Jew" was a nickname assigned by the Babylonians to anyone who either lived in or came from the area of Judea.

Psalm 2:4
The One enthroned in heaven laughs; the Lord scoffs at them. 5. Then he rebukes them in his anger and terrifies them in his wrath, saying, 6. "I have installed my King
on Zion, my holy hill." 7. I will proclaim the decree of the LORD : He said to me, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father. 8. Ask of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession.


Psalm 82:8
Rise up, O God, judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance.


Psalm 111:6
He has shown his people the power of his works, giving them the lands of other nations.


Isaiah 9:3
You have enlarged the nation and increased their joy; they rejoice before you as people rejoice at the harvest, as men rejoice when dividing the plunder.


Isaiah 14:1
The LORD will have compassion on Jacob; once again he will choose Israel and will settle them in their own land. Aliens will join them and unite with the house of Jacob.


Isaiah 26:15
You have enlarged the nation, O LORD; you have enlarged the nation. You have gained glory for yourself; you have extended all the borders of the land.


Isaiah 44:5
One will say, 'I belong to the LORD '; another will call himself by the name of Jacob; still another will write on his hand, ['The LORD's / Yahwah],' and will take the name Israel.


Isaiah 56:3
Let no foreigner who has bound himself to the LORD say, "The LORD will surely exclude me from his people."- 6. And foreigners who bind themselves to the LORD to serve him, to love the name of the LORD, and to worship him, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it
and who hold fast to my covenant-
7. these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations."
8. The Sovereign LORD declares— he who gathers the exiles of Israel: "I will gather still others to them besides those already gathered."


Ezekiel 47
21. "You are to distribute this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. 22. You are to allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the aliens who have settled among you and who have children. You are to consider them as native-born Israelites; along with you they are to be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. 23. In whatever tribe the alien settles, there you are to give him his inheritance," declares the Sovereign LORD.


Zechariah 2:10
"Shout and be glad, O Daughter of Zion. For I am coming, and I will live among you," declares the LORD. 11. "Many nations will be joined with the LORD in that day and will become my people. I will live among you and you will know that the LORD Almighty has sent me to you. 12. The LORD will inherit Judah as his portion in the holy land and will again choose Jerusalem. 13. Be still before the LORD, all mankind, because he has roused himself from his holy dwelling."


Matthew 12:21
In his name the nations will put their hope."



The Parable of the Tenants
Luke 20
9. He went on to tell the people this parable: "A man planted a vineyard, rented it to some farmers and went away for a long time. 10. At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenants so they would give him some of the fruit of the vineyard. But the tenants beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 11. He sent another servant, but that one also they beat and treated shamefully and sent away empty-handed. 12. He sent still a third, and they wounded him and threw him out.
13. "Then the owner of the vineyard said, 'What shall I do? I will send my son, whom I love; perhaps they will respect him.' 14. "But when the tenants saw him, they talked the matter over. 'This is the heir,' they said. 'Let's kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.' 15. So they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. "What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? 16. He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others." When the people heard this, they said, "May this never be!" 17. Jesus looked directly at them and asked, "Then what is the meaning of that which is written:

" 'The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone? 18. Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces, and he on whom it falls will be crushed."

19. The teachers of the law and the chief priests looked for a way to arrest him immediately, because they knew he had spoken this parable against them. But they were afraid of the people.


Acts 3:25
And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, 'Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.'


Romans 2:28
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


Romans 3:29
Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,


Romans 4:13
It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14. For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15. because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
16. Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17. As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.


Romans 4:18
Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, "So shall your offspring be."


Romans 8:17
Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.


Romans 9:6
It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8. In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.


Romans 9:24
even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?


Romans 10:12
For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,...


Romans 10:19
Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says, "I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;...


1 Corinthians 14:21
In the Law it is written: "Through men of strange tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord.


Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.


Ephesians 2:19
Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household,...


Ephesians 3:6
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.


Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.


Galatians 3:29
If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Colossians 3:11
Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.


Titus 3:7
so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.


Revelation 2:9
I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.


Revelation 3:9
I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.


Isaiah 65:15
You will leave your name to my chosen ones as a curse; the Sovereign LORD will put you to death, but to his servants he will give another name.

Acts 11:26
and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called [Christians / Messianics] first at Antioch.


A Jew is a convert to Orthodox Judaism and the Hebrews are an ethnic group of people.

Contrary to popular belief, Jews are not a race, but an assembly of people. Hebrews are a race.

A Hebrew may or may not be a Jew.

Please read the scriptures and commentary above.
 

CherubRam

New member
The Jew is the specimen of what was left after the divine rejection of Israel the Ten Tribes. (Psalm 78:67-69) The new Israel is composed of Judah as the main stem, a few thousands from the Ten Tribes that succeeded to escape the Assyrians and joined Judah in the South, plus the former Gentiles who have converted to Judaism according to Jewish law. (Isa. 56:1-8)
Did you read thread # 1.
 

chair

Well-known member
... I proffer those impostors were the circumcised bastard Shelanite 'Jews', descendants of Judah and his Canaanite wife's son Shelah (Genesis 38:1, 2, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10). They were the instigators of the crucifixion! Those are the squatters who occupy the contemporary nation/state of Israel: circumcised, bastard Shelanite 'Jews' who will not proclaim Tamar, Judah's daughter-in-law through whom David and Jesus arrived, as their maternal ancestress... in case you think those 'Jews' are ancestrally authentic...

kayaker

I "proffer" that you should take your pills. What a load of complete nonsense! Though I must say this is quite creative.

I won't take personal affront, though as a Levite on my father's side and a descendant of David's on my mother's side, I should.
 

kayaker

New member
Did you read thread # 1.

I think Ben did a great job explaining his concept of Jew. The key note there was the "stem of Judah". Judah was the prophesied progenitor of Messiah. The question is/was: would the Messiah arrive via the progeny of Judah and his Canaanite wife (Genesis 38:1, 2, 1Chronicles 2:3) contrary to Deuteronomy 7:1, 2, 3, Ezra 9:1, 2? Or, via Judah and his daughter-in-law, Tamar contrary to Leviticus 18:15, 21:7, 9, 13, 14? Jesus and king David were Pharzites, descendants of Pharez, eldest twin son of Judah and Tamar. Ben is suggesting the authentic lineage to produce Messiah would be through Judah and his Canaanite wife via their son Shelah... father of the Shelanites. Therefore, Jesus is an impostor. On the flip side, Jesus said they were worse than impostors (Revelation 2:9, 3:9). So, they crucified Him... for telling the truth that escapes the masses (John 8:30 KJV, John 8:31 KJC, John 8:32 KJV).

kayaker
 

Straightshot

New member
My comments


The Lord knows who the 12 tribes of Israel are, of both the past and the future

All different from Gentile nations .... collective or scattered

Israel has been set apart, and set as an ensign to the Gentile Nations [Isaiah 11]

Israel is the center subject of all Bible Prophecy ..... all recorded by the prophets of Israel

The Lord is a "Jew" by His humanity .... and still is [Revelation 5:5]

The same has been rejected by Israel as Messiah and King, but this condition is going to change and 1/3 of the nation at the time will be spared by their acceptance .... these will inhabit and populate His coming millennial kingdom upon the earth .... the balance will be killed during the time of Jacob's trouble and lost forever

[Isaiah 11; 27:12-13; Jeremiah 30; Jeremiah 31:31-37; Ezekiel 36; 38; 39; 40-48; Daniel 9; 12; Joel 2; 3; Micah 4; 5; Obadiah 1:1-21; Zechariah 12; 13:8-9; 14; Matthew 24; Luke 21:20-36; Romans 11:25-36; Revelation 7:1-8; 12; 14:1-7; 15:2-3]

The related theme of the scriptures gives an offset between Issac/Jacob and Ishmael/Esau, and this same offset exists to this very day .... between Israel and the Muslims

This controversy is now being displayed in the Middle East today and the conflict will lead to the intervention of Jesus Christ who will rescue the believing remnant of Israel from destruction by the Muslim hoards ..... and He will destroy Israel's enemies at Armageddon [Psalms 83; Ezekiel 38; 39; Revelation 16:1-16; 19:11-21]
 

kayaker

New member
I "proffer" that you should take your pills. What a load of complete nonsense! Though I must say this is quite creative.

I won't take personal affront, though as a Levite on my father's side and a descendant of David's on my mother's side, I should.

Ezra 9:1, 2, KJV "Now when these things were done, the princes came to me, saying, The people of Israel, and the priests, AND THE LEVITES, have not separated themselves from the people of the lands, doing according to their abominations, even of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, the Ammonites, the Moabites, the Egyptians, and the Amorites. 2) For they have taken of their daughters for themselves, and for their sons: so that the holy seed have mingled themselves with the people of those lands: YEA, THE HAND OF THE PRINCES AND RULERS HATH BEEN CHIEF IN THIS TRESPASS."

What was it Moses said that Ezra reiterated?

Deuteronomy 7:1, 2, 3, 4, KJV "When the Lord thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; 2) And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them b, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: 3) Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. 4) For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly."

So much for ancestry, chair. Sounds more like an impediment... that is, unless you have the birth records refuting the great trespass Ezra recognized. No wonder Jesus doesn't matter... He didn't matter to Nicodemus either, although Nicodemus did realize the magnitude of Jesus' miracles... You guys have anyone who could perform genetic miracles?

Then, tell me chair... you didn't know the Shelanites instigated the crucifixion, then? Of course, they had their Levitical support. Since you proclaim Levitical/Davidic ancestry, you might want to look into that one. It's a good thing to know who you're sleeping with, figuratively speaking. And, the Talmud sorta glossed over the prophesy of Messiah's arrival generation in Genesis 4:24? How convenient... mainstream Christianity hasn't picked up on that one, either, if that's any consolation. Are you sure your ancestors weren't among those set aside in Ezra 10?

Do keep in mind, chair... when the Muslim al-Aqsa mosque gets bulldozed off the temple mount... you might want to have your doomsday bugout back packed.

kayaker
 

kayaker

New member
Where did Ben say such a thing? Not in this thread.

I do stand corrected, chair. Not sure what happened there. I was trying to respond to CherubRam's other, similar thread. Thanks for pointing it out, my apology.

kayaker
 

kayaker

New member
Where did Ben say such a thing? Not in this thread.

Take a look at Ben's post #19 above, chair. Did you catch that "stem of Judah"? Maybe you can ask Ben if the "stem of Judah" were the Shelanites, or Pharzites. After all, Judah, the prophesied progenitor of Messiah, did procreate with his Canaanite wife (Shelanites), and with his daughter-in-law, Tamar (Pharzites). Wouldn't want to leave this key distinction in the abyss (Rev 2:9, 3:9). Good luck getting clarity from Ben, although I do appreciate his summary.

kayaker
 

kayaker

New member
The Jew is the specimen of what was left after the divine rejection of Israel the Ten Tribes. (Psalm 78:67-69) The new Israel is composed of Judah as the main stem, a few thousands from the Ten Tribes that succeeded to escape the Assyrians and joined Judah in the South, plus the former Gentiles who have converted to Judaism according to Jewish law. (Isa. 56:1-8)

Great post, Ben!

"The new Israel is composed of Judah as the main stem..." Are you taking about the Shelanite descendants of Judah and Canaanite wife? Or, are you talking about the Pharzite descendants of Judah and his daughter-in-law, Tamar? The suspense is to die for!

Out of curiosity... "the divine rejection of Israel the ten Tribes." You don't suppose this "divine rejection" had anything to do the great trespass Ezra spoke of in Ezra 9:1, 2, do you? Ezra was reiterating Moses from Deuteronomy 7:1, 2. Wasn't Judah's wife, mother of the Shelanites, a Canaanite (Genesis 38:1, 2, 1 Chronicles 2:3)? Judah's father-in-law Shuah, 'son' of Keturah, wife of Abraham (Genesis 25:1, 2, 3, 4) wasn't one of the 'sons' of Abraham... Judah's CANAANITE father-in-law Shuah was one of the "children of Keturah." Of course, Jesus knew the Shelanites were were "Abraham's seed" (John 8:33 KJV, John 8:37 KJV). And, Jesus knew the Shelanites weren't "Abraham's children" (John 8:39 KJV).

And, here we are back to "The new Israel is composed of Judah as the new stem." So, are you talking Shelanites? Or, Pharzites? I won't hold my breath.

kayaker
 

CherubRam

New member
I think Ben did a great job explaining his concept of Jew. The key note there was the "stem of Judah". Judah was the prophesied progenitor of Messiah. The question is/was: would the Messiah arrive via the progeny of Judah and his Canaanite wife (Genesis 38:1, 2, 1Chronicles 2:3) contrary to Deuteronomy 7:1, 2, 3, Ezra 9:1, 2? Or, via Judah and his daughter-in-law, Tamar contrary to Leviticus 18:15, 21:7, 9, 13, 14? Jesus and king David were Pharzites, descendants of Pharez, eldest twin son of Judah and Tamar. Ben is suggesting the authentic lineage to produce Messiah would be through Judah and his Canaanite wife via their son Shelah... father of the Shelanites. Therefore, Jesus is an impostor. On the flip side, Jesus said they were worse than impostors (Revelation 2:9, 3:9). So, they crucified Him... for telling the truth that escapes the masses (John 8:30 KJV, John 8:31 KJC, John 8:32 KJV).

kayaker

Joseph was of a royal family line from David, and Mary was a Levite family member. Jewish identity by family line did not exist when Christ lived, it was invented by the Rabbi's after Christ. The family line thingy was just another way for them to deny Christ.
 

chair

Well-known member
Joseph was of a royal family line from David, and Mary was a Levite family member. Jewish identity by family line did not exist when Christ lived, it was invented by the Rabbi's after Christ. The family line thingy was just another way for them to deny Christ.

So how was Jewish identity figured when Jesus lived?

edit: And how does that help us "deny Christ"?
 

CherubRam

New member
So how was Jewish identity figured when Jesus lived?

edit: And how does that help us "deny Christ"?

Before and during the life of Christ the Jewish identity was, any person who was of the Judaic faith was a Jew. That did not change until after his death.

Orthodox Jews claim that He (God) would not father a child upon a human woman. So, the idea of Jesus Christ being a human, fathered by the Holy Spirit is not 'impossible', it would just prove God to be a liar. If the lineage goes through Mary, it does not count because tribal lineage only goes through the father, while national lineage only goes through the mother. If it goes through Joseph, it does not count, because Joseph was not his father.


I would like to state that Christians never claimed that God procreated through Mary, but that He (God) created a body in the linage of David.


Psalm 40 commentary.
N.I.V. foot note for Psalms 40:6 reads: “Hebrew; Septuagint: but a body you have prepared for me. (See also Symmachus and Theodotion)” End of quote. Symmachus the Ebonite was a late 2nd century author of one of the Greek versions of the Old Testament.


Although Theodotion was Anti-Christ, it may not have occurred to him to change the Hebrew Psalm script from reading: “But a body you have prepared for me.” In Hebrews 10:5 the verse is also repeated. “Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;”…
 

chair

Well-known member
Before and during the life of Christ the Jewish identity was, any person who was of the Judaic faith was a Jew. That did not change until after his death.

And how do you know this? Have some Jewish sources on this?

Orthodox Jews claim that He (God) would not father a child upon a human woman. ...

Orthodox Jews are far more concerned with observing the Sabbath and eating kosher food than they are with your rather convoluted theology. Please try, very hard, to get this into your head:

Jews and Judaism are not about Christianity.

We have our own traditions, many of which predate your religion by 1,000 years.

Christianity started out as a Jewish cult.
 

CherubRam

New member
And how do you know this? Have some Jewish sources on this?



Orthodox Jews are far more concerned with observing the Sabbath and eating kosher food than they are with your rather convoluted theology. Please try, very hard, to get this into your head:

Jews and Judaism are not about Christianity.

We have our own traditions, many of which predate your religion by 1,000 years.

Christianity started out as a Jewish cult.
Christianity is a branch of Judaism. In the New testament it speaks of Pharisees being active in seeking converts of other people. That came to an end with the destruction of the temple and Israel.
 

CherubRam

New member
cherub



False Teaching, in fact judaism has always opposed Christianity !
Before people were called Christians they were called converts, that being the faith of Judaism.

Judaize

YLT
Galatians 2:14

But when I saw that they are not walking uprightly to the truth of the good news, I said to Peter before all, `If thou, being a Jew, in the manner of the nations dost live, and not in the manner of the Jews, how the nations dost thou compel to Judaize?


Galatians 2:14
But when I saw that they were not walking uprightly according to the truth of the good news, I said to Peter before everyone, If you, being a Jew live in the manner of the nations, and not in the manner of the Jews, then how will you compel the nations to Judaize?
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Before people were called Christians they were called converts, that being the faith of Judaism.

Judaize

YLT
Galatians 2:14

But when I saw that they are not walking uprightly to the truth of the good news, I said to Peter before all, `If thou, being a Jew, in the manner of the nations dost live, and not in the manner of the Jews, how the nations dost thou compel to Judaize?


Galatians 2:14
But when I saw that they were not walking uprightly according to the truth of the good news, I said to Peter before everyone, If you, being a Jew live in the manner of the nations, and not in the manner of the Jews, then how will you compel the nations to Judaize?

Again, Judaism has always opposed God and Christianity !
 
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