Where Does The Bible Say...? (HOF thread)

[greatdivide46]

Originally posted by BChristianK

And what is it that you think happens during baptism?

I think that it is in baptism that the believer comes into contact with the blood of Christ and is regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

However, I think the CoC gets too dogmatic, again not assuming you’re a member but just comparing similar theologies.

Lets say Jim comes to church on Sunday, and is convicted by the Pastor’s sermon. He goes up to the pastor and says, “I’ve become really convicted tonight about some things in my life. I really feel the need to be baptized and to devote my life to Christ. I believe in Jesus, I believe He died on the cross to save me from my sins, I believe I am a sinner and I repent of my sins, I believe that Christ was raised from the dead and I declare Him my Lord.�

The pastor is elated and schedules a baptism for the very next Sunday.

I wouldn't wait till the next Sunday. I'd baptize him right away. The baptistry in our church is always ready.

On Wednesday, Jim gets West Nile and is rushed to the emergency room. If you were the pastor and you were called to the hospital when a family member calls you and tells you that Jim has taken a turn for the worse, would you comfort Jim and tell him that it is ok, that God see’s his heart, and when he gets better he’ll be baptized first thing? Would you consider Jim in God’s grace even though hasn’t united what has happened in his heart to the waters of baptism? Or would you tell Jim that he better get well soon, because if he dies without baptism he has a one way ticket straight to the eternal fires of hell!? When Jim gets a little worries you interrupt and authoritatively say, “God requires water baptism by full immersion, and if you don’t make it, you’re out of luck buddy!�

Although this is a hypothetical question and I normally don't like to deal in hypotheticals, I would consider "Jim" saved if he should happen to die before baptism.

I feel like I am on pretty good ground scripturally if I say that God absolutely requires baptism, and we are saved by grace through faith. I don’t think you need to be baptized in any one persons denomination or church. I don’t think the pastor has to say any special, magical incantation about the remission of sins in order to activate the saving powers of the baptismal waters. I don’t think that Baptists spiel about being buried with Christ through baptism, raised to walk in new life, in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit is any better or worse than the CoC’s spiel about baptism being done for the remission of sins because I don’t think that the Baptists or the CoC’s script for a baptismal service contains magic words. I don’t think a person with a childlike faith who doesn’t understand fully the meaning of baptism but is obedient in a Baptist church is any more or less saved than a person who wrote a doctoral theological dissertation on baptism before allowing their own baptism in the Church of Christ. And I don't think a person walking out of a church dedicated to Christ and willing to be obedient in baptism at the next oportunity is on thier way to hell just because they haven't gotten wet yet.

The question is, do you?

Nope, not as long as they're not intentionally refusing to be baptized. Under normal, non-hypothetical circumstances I consider baptized a requirement.

 

[greatdivide46]

Originally posted by lighthouse

What I am saying is that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ [His blood] is sufficient for the remission of sins.

OK, gotcha!! I agree. And I think that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ [his blood] becomes effective as soon as we are baptized. (See Romans 6:3-5).

If you think that anyone can exhibit the gifts of the Holy Spirit without being indwelt with the Holy Spirit, you are more than ignorant of the Lord.

Are you saying that the Holy Spirit can influence only those people who are indwelt by Him? Surely your not limiting the Holy Spirit, are you?

 

[JustAChristian]

Are You Willing To Study Some English Grammer?

Are You Willing To Study Some English Grammer?

Originally posted by lighthouse

JustAHeretic-
Are you going to respond to what I had to say? Also, only seven verses? Does that include the context of those verses, or just the verses themselves without the surrounding scripture that shows what they mean?

"Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."
-Galatians 3:19-27

But how about this, which was also written by Paul:
"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also are ye circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."
-Colossians 2:8-12
If the circumcision is a circumcision without hands, why isn't the baptism?

lighthouse,

You have asked about faith...

For ye are all the children by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

Are you willing to investigate an argument that I presented to BChristianK, but he wouldn't investigate it? If you will study in your dictionary; an unabridged one at that, the "figure of speech' called a "Synecdoche " then we can progress on this. Have you ever heard the term "synecdoche?" I will use it in a verse. Jesus is teaching on prayer. He says, "Give us this day our daily bread." This is the first mention of our personal wants in this model prayer. It reflects faith, trust and contentment in the Lord of the harvest (Matt. 9:38). Bread stands as a synecdoche for all our physical needs. Again we note that it is our bread we pray for. We pray not just for our own personal needs but for others also. Remembering the poor is an essential part of our faith (Gal. 2:10). We are reminded that man does not live by bread alone (Matt. 4:4). We need the life-giving bread which came down from heaven (John 6:41) and the words which he gave us.

The synecdoche is the exchange of one idea for an associated idea. While metonymy is an exchange between two related nouns, the synecdoche is an exchange made between two associated ideas. The synecdoche is a figure of speech where a part is put for a whole, and where a whole is put for a part. It involves putting a singular for a plural and a plural for a singular. In Exo. 9:6 "all" is put for the "greater part." The reading is: "And all of the cattle of Egypt died" -- that is, all kinds of cattle died, not that all the individual cattle died. Hosea wrote: "They are all adulterers" -- that is, most of them, or, as a whole, the lot of them were adulterers (Hos. 4:11). In the Galatian context you recorded, "faith" stands for the whole of "hearing the gospel, believing that Christ is the Son of God, repenting of sins, being baptized for the remission of sins and walking in newness of life' all of which is essential for a disciple to be saved. I hope you will look at this. Ask about it. Don't discount it too quickly. You will be doing yourself a great service.


And then you asked...

If the circumcision is a circumcision without hands, why isn't the baptism?

Circumcision without hands is the "spiritual" process' of severing one from their sins in the putting away of the "filth of the flesh" (1 Peter 3:21) which in this case is our sins. In baptism this is accomplished but it is called "washing away of sins" in Acts 22:16 but means the same as putting away of the filth of sins and not dirt that is on the skin as Peter is teaching in 1Peter 3:21.

JustAChristian :angel:

Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by greatdivide46

OK, gotcha!! I agree. And I think that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ [his blood] becomes effective as soon as we are baptized. (See Romans 6:3-5).

Is this anything like how the bread actually becomes the flesh of Christ, or the wine becomes the blood, in the Catholic dogma of communion?

Are you saying that the Holy Spirit can influence only those people who are indwelt by Him? Surely your not limiting the Holy Spirit, are you?

Nope. He influenced me to respond to God's love. But He does limit Himself, and will not bestow the gifts, or the fruit, to anyone who is not saved.

 

[Lighthouse]

Re: Are You Willing To Study Some English Grammer?

Re: Are You Willing To Study Some English Grammer?

Originally posted by JustAChristian

lighthouse,

You have asked about faith...



Are you willing to investigate an argument that I presented to BChristianK, but he wouldn't investigate it? If you will study in your dictionary; an unabridged one at that, the "figure of speech' called a "Synecdoche " then we can progress on this. Have you ever heard the term "synecdoche?" I will use it in a verse. Jesus is teaching on prayer. He says, "Give us this day our daily bread." This is the first mention of our personal wants in this model prayer. It reflects faith, trust and contentment in the Lord of the harvest (Matt. 9:38). Bread stands as a synecdoche for all our physical needs. Again we note that it is our bread we pray for. We pray not just for our own personal needs but for others also. Remembering the poor is an essential part of our faith (Gal. 2:10). We are reminded that man does not live by bread alone (Matt. 4:4). We need the life-giving bread which came down from heaven (John 6:41) and the words which he gave us.

The synecdoche is the exchange of one idea for an associated idea. While metonymy is an exchange between two related nouns, the synecdoche is an exchange made between two associated ideas. The synecdoche is a figure of speech where a part is put for a whole, and where a whole is put for a part. It involves putting a singular for a plural and a plural for a singular. In Exo. 9:6 "all" is put for the "greater part." The reading is: "And all of the cattle of Egypt died" -- that is, all kinds of cattle died, not that all the individual cattle died. Hosea wrote: "They are all adulterers" -- that is, most of them, or, as a whole, the lot of them were adulterers (Hos. 4:11). In the Galatian context you recorded, "faith" stands for the whole of "hearing the gospel, believing that Christ is the Son of God, repenting of sins, being baptized for the remission of sins and walking in newness of life' all of which is essential for a disciple to be saved. I hope you will look at this. Ask about it. Don't discount it too quickly. You will be doing yourself a great service.

You need smacked. Faith is trust and love. Love effects obedience, but obedience is not a factor in salvation. We are not the ones who hold any responsibility in our salvation. God, alone, is. And it is He Who maintains our salvation, not us.

And then you asked...



Circumcision without hands is the "spiritual" process' of severing one from their sins in the putting away of the "filth of the flesh" (1 Peter 3:21) which in this case is our sins. In baptism this is accomplished but it is called "washing away of sins" in Acts 22:16 but means the same as putting away of the filth of sins and not dirt that is on the skin as Peter is teaching in 1Peter 3:21.

As for the "baptism isn't the washing away of dirt on the skin" platitude::duh:.

Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

What does that have to do with baptism?

 

[greatdivide46]

Originally posted by lighthouse

Is this anything like how the bread actually becomes the flesh of Christ, or the wine becomes the blood, in the Catholic dogma of communion?

Nope, nothing like it at all!! :nono:

Nope. He influenced me to respond to God's love. But He does limit Himself, and will not bestow the gifts, or the fruit, to anyone who is not saved.

So all of the people in the Old Testament who were moved by the Spirit to do various things were already indwelled by the Holy Spirit?

 

[JustAChristian]

Does God Change His Will Based On Unusual Situations and Circumstances?

Does God Change His Will Based On Unusual Situations and Circumstances?

It is God's will that all be saved. He has provided a plan of salvation. This plan of salvation is contained in the New Testament. The plan is a part of the gospel of salvation (Romans 1:16). The plan of salvation is easily seen when observing acts of obedience in the book of Acts of the Apostles. When we do the same as the 1st century faithful did in order to have forgivness of sin and salvation we can be sure that God will react to our faith in the same manner that He reacted to the 1st century faithful. However all do not believe this. Some feel that if a person is ill and cannot affect an obedient act, such as immersion, that he will not be lost. They believe that God will make an exception in most or all cases when it is not convenient for an immediate baptism. How has Jesus addressed the unusual circumstances and situations? He says: “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven� (Matthew 7:21). Jesus told John the revelator “Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.� (Revelation 22:14 AV)

A young man from a rich and noble family and beautiful lady decided to be married after courting each other for several months. The day was set, the license was bought, the marriage site was arranged, the marriage court was selected, the preacher was requested, and all was in order for the great day. When it did come, the groom was on his way to the church with his family when he was involved in a tragic car accident. His body was seriously injured in several places. The family rushed him to the hospital where he later died from his massive injuries. The bride waited at the church till the time of the wedding not knowing what had happened. No word came of the accident. All she knew was that the groom had not arrived as planned. Later, the parents of the groom came and told her that their son was dead. The young lady immediately makes a claim to his heritage but will the judge recognize her as heir since they were not married? “No, the court can not relieve you to claim since you were not married to this man.� What a great tragedy and what a great loss.

It should be noted that since she was not married to the groom it negated her claim to his inheritance. The same is true regarding our marriage to Christ. Romans 7:4 says that “we are married to another who was raised from the dead.� Romans 6:5 points out that baptism is the point when we are united to Christ. Galatians 3:27 says we put on Christ in baptism.

God alone judges righteously in all situations.. He has relegated all judgment to His Son Jesus Christ (Acts 17:30-31). If we neglect to be baptized for remission of sins we cannot claim God does not love us. Nor can we expect “special dispensation�. God does not wish anyone to be lost but that all come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). If we are lost it is because we are the ones who have refused his directions for receiving forgiveness, or we have neglected to fulfill His Will for salvation. Even in the most adverse situations one is expected to obey. For this cause God would have all man saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim.. 2:4). What will affect our salvation? Obedience to the commandments or the Will of God (Matthew 7:21-23). J.W. McGarvey tell us; “Doing the will of God must be understood, not in the sense of sinless obedience, but as including a compliance with the conditions on which sins are forgiven. Whether under the old covenant or the new, sinless obedience is an impossibility; but obedience to the extent of our possibility amid the weaknesses of the flesh, accompanied by daily compliance with the conditions of pardon for our daily sin, has ever secured the favor of God.� Stacks and stacks of hypothetical codicils can not change the Testament of Jesus Christ. It is finished and probated. If a person fails to fulfill the terms of the will of God how can one claim the benefits of His resolution.

I do not wish to sound harsh or indifferent to any situation, but to give false information on the plan of salvation is false teaching. God is the Righteous and all will be judged and rewarded righteously.

JustAChristian :angel:

 

[JustAChristian]

Re: Re: Are You Willing To Study Some English Grammer?

Re: Re: Are You Willing To Study Some English Grammer?

Originally posted by lighthouse


You need smacked. Faith is trust and love. Love effects obedience, but obedience is not a factor in salvation. We are not the ones who hold any responsibility in our salvation. God, alone, is. And it is He Who maintains our salvation, not us.


As for the "baptism isn't the washing away of dirt on the skin" platitude::duh:.


What does that have to do with baptism?

lighthouse,

You really need to get serious here. Your eternal salvation is at stake. What does the Bible say about obedience? It has a lot to say. Please read my latest posting in the "Quick Reply" section above. Also consider these verses: "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Hebrews 5:8-9 AV). Only those that obey will receive the reward.

Why didn't you reply to the "synecdoche" argument? Do you need more time on this or additional information?

JustAChristian :angel:

 

[JustAChristian]

Do You Understand the Figure of Speech Called A "Synecdoche?"

Do You Understand the Figure of Speech Called A "Synecdoche?"

The synecdoche is the exchange of one idea for an associated idea. While metonymy is an exchange between two related nouns, the synecdoche is an exchange made between two associated ideas. The synecdoche is a figure of speech where a part is put for a whole, and where a whole is put for a part. It involves putting a singular for a plural and a plural for a singular. When the Philippian jailor asked what he must do to be saved, he was told to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved." Believe, in this case, is a verb and a synecdoche. It contains the command to have faith, repent, confess Christ and be baptized for the remission of sins. This is what all the other believers in Acts were required to do and implies that the jailor would be required to do no less. Remember the synecdoche in your study. It will greatly enhance your understanding of the Will of God.

 

[Lighthouse]

greatdivide-
In answer to your last question, yes.

JustAHeretic-
Forget it. You're a preacher of lies and I will not waste my time with you, anymore.

 

[Aimiel]

Re: Do You Understand the Figure of Speech Called A "Synecdoche?"

Re: Do You Understand the Figure of Speech Called A "Synecdoche?"

Originally posted by JustAChristian

When the Philippian jailor asked what he must do to be saved, he was told to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved." Believe, in this case, is a verb and a synecdoche. It contains the command to have faith, repent, confess Christ and be baptized for the remission of sins. This is what all the other believers in Acts were required to do and implies that the jailor would be required to do no less. Remember the synecdoche in your study. It will greatly enhance your understanding of the Will of God.

As well with yourself.

He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

 

[JustAChristian]

Originally posted by lighthouse

greatdivide-
In answer to your last question, yes.

JustAHeretic-
Forget it. You're a preacher of lies and I will not waste my time with you, anymore.

lighthouse,

You are just like Aimiel trying to live in the scope of the Bible without scriptural authority. You say thing and do thing without any biblical authority. The bible tells us to "reason together" on thing spiritual and to "study to show ourselves approved of God", but I see little hope of you and Aimiel and even BChristianK ever complying to those commandments at all.

JustAChristian :angel:

 

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by JustAChristian

You are just like Aimiel trying to live in the scope of the Bible without scriptural authority. You say thing and do thing without any biblical authority.

I don't believe that I am doing anything that differs, at all, with sound Biblical doctrine.

The bible tells us to "reason together" on thing spiritual

I don't think that your idea of doctrine is the least bit 'Biblical' here, because what actually is written is: "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." It looks like you're trying to 'reason' out what The Word of God says, and leaning upon your own understanding to define God, instead of searching for Him with all of your heart, so as to actually 'find' Him and reason together with Him, as He has instructed. You need to repent.

... and to "study to show ourselves approved of God", but I see little hope of you and Aimiel and even BChristianK ever complying to those commandments at all.

We are not only studying, but also experiencing the 'reasoning together' that The Lord spoke of, and finding out (usually right away) what His Will is, in any given situation. You can't do that sort of thing when He is only 'with' you, you have to have His Spirit 'in' you, as well.

 

[greatdivide46]

Originally posted by lighthouse

greatdivide-
In answer to your last question, yes.

Let me make sure I'm understanding you correctly. You really believe that the Old Testament saints we're indwelled by the Holy Spirit?

 

[Lighthouse]

Yes.

 

[JustAChristian]

What Is Needed...?

What Is Needed...?

Originally posted by Aimiel

I don't believe that I am doing anything that differs, at all, with sound Biblical doctrine. I don't think that your idea of doctrine is the least bit 'Biblical' here, because what actually is written is: "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." It looks like you're trying to 'reason' out what The Word of God says, and leaning upon your own understanding to define God, instead of searching for Him with all of your heart, so as to actually 'find' Him and reason together with Him, as He has instructed. You need to repent.We are not only studying, but also experiencing the 'reasoning together' that The Lord spoke of, and finding out (usually right away) what His Will is, in any given situation. You can't do that sort of thing when He is only 'with' you, you have to have His Spirit 'in' you, as well.

Aimiel,

Putting it simple, if you or BChristianK or lighthouse and others would show one example of Holy Spirit baptism that caused the sins of an individual to be "washed away" or "buried" or "put off" or "caused one to become into Christ" then we wouldn't be having this conversation. The Holy Spirit has been misused for too long bymany. It is God's intent that His Word produce purity and cause the new birth to come about (1 Peter 1:21-22) and not the Holy Spirit independently intervening. God's word tells us to hear with the intent to attain faith (Romans 10:17), to believe Jesus is the Son of God and the Messiah (John 8 24), to repent of sins and turn to God (Luke 13:3), to confess Jesus publically (Matthew 10:32-33), and to be baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38). God has promised the indwelling of His Spirit in those that do His will. Heaven waits the obedient. I hope you and others strongly consider God's plan of salvation presented by Jesus in His ministry.

JustAChristian

 

[JustAChristian]

Re: They Mean that You Don't Think Enough of me to Reply, Except Cryptically!!!

Re: They Mean that You Don't Think Enough of me to Reply, Except Cryptically!!!

Originally posted by Aimiel

The preceding naming of Bible books, chapters and verses that you expect me to look up for you, as if you have authority over me, to tell me what to do, and what I must believe, in order to satisfy your pharisee-ical whimsy, as if I'm in your little Sunday School class tell me that you don't have the courage to say what is on your mind or maybe that you don't understand what I've said, or, perhaps, you just don't care. Not only is that type of behavior eliteist and rude, but it is childish and ignorant.

Do you have a mouse in your pocket, or a split personality? You keep referring to yourself as 'us.' Are you plural? Who is 'us?' If you think that you're representing Christ by acting this way, you need to think again, and you also need to grow up.

If you have anything to say, then say it. If you have the entire Bible, including books, chapters and verses memorized, I'm proud of you. You get three Brownie buttons. But it doesn't mean squat. It doesn't matter to the discussion. It doesn't matter to me. It doesn't matter to Joe Lost on the street, because he could care less. Most importantly, your type of 'holier-than-thou' disdain doesn't matter to God, except to put a stench in His Nostrils.

Quoting Mark 16:16 at me like it's a cannonball means that you don't believe Mark 16:17.

Firing off a round of Acts 2:38 at me as if it's my execution means that you don't understand that in order to receive The Holy Ghost, you have to give Him permission to come inside, just like when you get saved, you have to ask for salvation.

Throwing Acts 22:16 in my face means that you believe that if you study really hard, find all the right formulas that God has described and follow them to the letter, you'll still be a whitewashed empty vessel, which appears clean on the outside, but inside you're still full of dead men's bones.

Galatians 3:27 means that you have found another clue.

The problem is that you don't believe that God is perfectly capable of Baptizing with The Holy Ghost, and you're trying to prove it with a side show.

You've placed your premises out there. They've all been shot full of holes. You haven't learned one thing. You are more stubborn than most mules I've ever dealt with. Are you a Baptist?

Aimiel,

You need to do this and not overlook it. Tell us what the verses I give you mean.

The preceding naming of Bible books, chapters and verses that you expect me to look up for you, as if you have authority over me, to tell me what to do, and what I must believe, in order to satisfy your pharisee-ical whimsy, as if I'm in your little Sunday School class tell me that you don't have the courage to say what is on your mind or maybe that you don't understand what I've said, or, perhaps, you just don't care. Not only is that type of behavior eliteist and rude, but it is childish and ignorant.

Do you have a mouse in your pocket, or a split personality? You keep referring to yourself as 'us.' Are you plural? Who is 'us?' If you think that you're representing Christ by acting this way, you need to think again, and you also need to grow up.

If you have anything to say, then say it. If you have the entire Bible, including books, chapters and verses memorized, I'm proud of you. You get three Brownie buttons. But it doesn't mean squat. It doesn't matter to the discussion. It doesn't matter to me. It doesn't matter to Joe Lost on the street, because he could care less. Most importantly, your type of 'holier-than-thou' disdain doesn't matter to God, except to put a stench in His Nostrils.

Why don't you just do what I said and tell us what these verses mean instead of showing how foolish you are?

Quoting Mark 16:16 at me like it's a cannonball means that you don't believe Mark 16:17.

What makes you think I don't believe Mark 16:17? Of course I believe Mark 16:17. I don't believe it say to us what you want it to say. You want it to mean that Christians today can do miracles based on this verse. Why don't you tell me that this is your "authority" verse for what you believe instead of asking a stupid question? Rightly dividing the scriptures will not allow you to use this verse as present day miracles authority. That is another debate and does not really belong here.

I asked you to tell me what the verse Mark 16:16 meant. It is not a hard question, but I know you don't want to answer it because it will disqualify any argument on water baptism you might have.

Firing off a round of Acts 2:38 at me as if it's my execution means that you don't understand that in order to receive The Holy Ghost, you have to give Him permission to come inside, just like when you get saved, you have to ask for salvation.

That doesn't tell me anything about what Peter taught in the verse. What did he mean? Why did he tell the crowd to be baptized for the remission of sins? How is this baptism administered?

Throwing Acts 22:16 in my face means that you believe that if you study really hard, find all the right formulas that God has described and follow them to the letter, you'll still be a whitewashed empty vessel, which appears clean on the outside, but inside you're still full of dead men's bones.

And you believe that if you follow your own formula of doing what you want to do regardless of what the Bible says will still get you salvation. I am trying to get you and others to see you are wrong and you aren't even interested in investigating. That is all I want you to do is investigate. See what noted scholars have to say about baptism for the remission of sins. You will be doing yourself a great service.

Galatians 3:27 means that you have found another clue.

The problem is that you don't believe that God is perfectly capable of Baptizing with The Holy Ghost, and you're trying to prove it with a side show.

God is quite capable of baptizing with the Holy Ghost, but wen he did so it was a "limited baptism"; not for everyone. The "all flesh" in Acts 2 stood for Jews and Gentiles. This was first to the Jews (the Jewish apostles) and the Gentiles (the household of Cornelius). No other reference of Holy Spirit baptism is seen in the New Testament. Find other referances and you have a viable argument.

You've placed your premises out there. They've all been shot full of holes. You haven't learned one thing. You are more stubborn than most mules I've ever dealt with. Are you a Baptist?

No I am not a Baptist I am JustAChristian. I do not ascribe to any man made creed.

In Christ,
JustAChristian :angel:

 

[Aimiel]

Re: What Is Needed...?

Re: What Is Needed...?

Originally posted by JustAChristian

Putting it simple, if you or BChristianK or lighthouse and others would show one example of Holy Spirit baptism that caused the sins of an individual to be "washed away" or "buried" or "put off" or "caused one to become into Christ" then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

So, because you don't understand The Office of The Holy Spirit or His Purposes, but demand that He jump to your expectations and bow and genuflect to you and jump through your hypocritical religious 'hoops' and He doesn't, then you declare that He doesn't exist?

The Holy Spirit has been misused for too long bymany.

He's never been a subject of 'mis-use,' He is mis-understood by millions who claim to 'know' Him, but He would never allow someone to mis-use His Power or His Presence. I believe that Annanias and Saphira proved that.

It is God's intent that His Word produce purity and cause the new birth to come about (1 Peter 1:21-22) and not the Holy Spirit independently intervening.

What on earth are you talking about here? What are you trying to say?

God has promised the indwelling of His Spirit in those that do His will.

Correct. He said that He would give His Holy Spirit to those that ask Him to.

You need to do this and not overlook it. Tell us what the verses I give you mean.

So, now do you think that you're my master, and I'm your slave, or do you believe that you're my conscience? Why don't you tell me what you feel these verses mean to you, whatever they might be; or, better yet, dare to be honest with yourself and with me, and tell me what you were going to find fault with my doctrine on, so that we don't have to play these silly 'religious games' that you insist upon playing.

Why don't you just do what I said and tell us what these verses mean instead of showing how foolish you are?

Sorry, I don't jump to demands from someone who is religious, manipulative or pushy, and I don't respond to namecalling either.

You want it to mean that Christians today can do miracles based on this verse.

OK, so you don't believe miracles are possible?

And you believe that if you follow your own formula of doing what you want to do regardless of what the Bible says will still get you salvation.

No, but I do believe that God has way more authority than you do.

I am trying to get you and others to see you are wrong and you aren't even interested in investigating.

Investigating what? Your lack of understanding?

God is quite capable of baptizing with the Holy Ghost, but wen he did so it was a "limited baptism"; not for everyone.

OK, so you believe that God is a respecter of persons? Which ones (scriptures, please) were 'not good enough' to receive The Holy Ghost?

The "all flesh" in Acts 2 stood for Jews and Gentiles.

Liar. All flesh means every soul who is alive. The Holy Spirit will be poured out upon all flesh. His Presence will become visible. The Glory of God will cover this earth as the waters cover the seas.

This was first to the Jews (the Jewish apostles) and the Gentiles (the household of Cornelius).

Sounds like something you made up, a new 'elitest' doctrine.

No other reference of Holy Spirit baptism is seen in the New Testament.

You must be blind, then.

No I am not a Baptist I am JustAChristian. I do not ascribe to any man made creed.

The reason that I ask is that you're dead-set against The Holy Spirit, as many Baptists are, and I thought that you might be one. You seem to make up your own 'creed' and follow it religiously.

 

[greatdivide46]

Lightning:

As to the OT saints having the indwelling, sanctifying presence of the Holy Spirit -- "Where does the Bible say that?"

 

[Lighthouse]

Baptism of the Holy Spirit does not wash away sins. The shed blood of Christ does. Do you not believe that things changed at the cross?

greatdivide-
My name is lighthouse, not lightning.

Abraham's faith was counted to him for righteousness. That's in one of Paul's epistles, but I keep forgetting where exactly it is. Also, how else would anyone be sanctified, except by the power of God?