Originally posted by greatdivide46
I kinda think Jesus telling him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise," was enough for the thief to receive forgiveness of sins. Obviously he'd already repented or Jesus wouldn't have said what He did.
Right, and the problem that a lot of CoC folks have, not lumping you in with them but using them as an illustration, is that they can't conceive of God's sovereignty over the process. If, for some reason, a person
absolutely can't be baptized by extenuating circumstances, God had demonstrated that He can save without the waters of baptism.
It's my understanding that it's not the getting wet that saves, but what happens during baptism that saves.
And what is it that you think happens during baptism?
God could have chosen another means to accomplish the same thing, but the fact is He didn't.
You may be surprised at my agreement with you here. I'm not at all thrilled with the "pray the prayer" methodology of salvation embraced by most baptistic churches. The way that God set out for individuals to make a profession of their faith, repentance, confession of Jesus and identification with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection, is through baptism.
Where you and I may disagree is on our discussion as to exactly what moment a person is saved. First, I think that we are too concerned with answering the question as to when exactly is a person saved.
Second, I would disagree somewhat with your following statement
Just because I believe that people get saved when they're baptized doesn't mean that I believe that it's the getting wet that saves them.
And I will allow you the privilege of defining your own position rather than supervene a straw man on your post.
Personally, I think that the Baptists have their own issues, here’s an example.
Jane answers an alter call in a Baptist church. The Pastor asks everyone to close their eyes and she raises her hand prays the sinners prayer. She, along with everyone else who raised their hand, are told, “this is it!� You’re saved, no matter what!� She walks out the back door, discretely picks up a new believer packet, takes it home and looks at it. She notices the information tells her that the first act of Christian obedience is to be publicly baptized as a symbolic expression of her confession of faith. She thinks to herself, “I don’t want to get up in front of all those people and confess that I’m a sinner who needs Jesus. I’m just not sure I’m ready for baptism.�
Two days later she goes to talk to the pastor and tells him that she really doesn’t care to be baptized, maybe she’ll entertain the option sometime in the future but its just not right for her right now. Some Baptist pastors would say, “that’s ok, Jesus doesn’t mind.� I would say, “you might want to consider the possibility that you’re heart really hasn’t accepted Christ, if you’re not willing to obey Him in this first act of obedience, maybe your prayer wasn’t really that sincere.?�
However, I think the CoC gets too dogmatic, again not assuming you’re a member but just comparing similar theologies.
Lets say Jim comes to church on Sunday, and is convicted by the Pastor’s sermon. He goes up to the pastor and says, “I’ve become really convicted tonight about some things in my life. I really feel the need to be baptized and to devote my life to Christ. I believe in Jesus, I believe He died on the cross to save me from my sins, I believe I am a sinner and I repent of my sins, I believe that Christ was raised from the dead and I declare Him my Lord.�
The pastor is elated and schedules a baptism for the very next Sunday. On Wednesday, Jim gets West Nile and is rushed to the emergency room. If you were the pastor and you were called to the hospital when a family member calls you and tells you that Jim has taken a turn for the worse, would you comfort Jim and tell him that it is ok, that God see’s his heart, and when he gets better he’ll be baptized first thing? Would you consider Jim in God’s grace even though hasn’t united what has happened in his heart to the waters of baptism? Or would you tell Jim that he better get well soon, because if he dies without baptism he has a one way ticket straight to the eternal fires of hell!? When Jim gets a little worries you interrupt and authoritatively say, “God requires water baptism by full immersion, and if you don’t make it, you’re out of luck buddy!�
The following example calls into question our ability to let God be sovereign over salvation verses our desire to be secure in our formula.
These two examples help us to determine what formula we have in our minds about salvation.
Is salvation when a person realizes they need baptism and commits to it? When they decide in their heart they need Jesus? When they tell the pastor they really want to be baptized and schedule a time? When they show up for the baptism? When they put on the baptismal robe? When they first get into the water? Are they saved when their toes get wet? How about their ankles? Their waist? Are they saved before the pastor starts to dunk them or after they finished getting dunked? Are they saved before the pastor says, “In the name of… Or does he have to finish his statement before they are saved? If they aspirate water during the baptism and accidentally drown are they lost or saved? What exact moment does a person cross the line from being lost to being saved?
Do you see how ridiculous we can get in trying to pin down God as to when He sovereignly chooses to regenerates us?
JustaChristian asked a counter question in regards to a similar scenario I posed to him. He asked, “Has the gospel been obeyed?�
Good question, here’s another good question. Are we the ones who get to determine when it has and when it hasn’t been obeyed down to the last detail, or is that God’s province?
I feel like I am on pretty good ground scripturally if I say that God absolutely requires baptism, and we are saved by grace through faith. I don’t think you need to be baptized in any one persons denomination or church. I don’t think the pastor has to say any special, magical incantation about the remission of sins in order to activate the saving powers of the baptismal waters. I don’t think that Baptists spiel about being buried with Christ through baptism, raised to walk in new life, in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit is any better or worse than the CoC’s spiel about baptism being done for the remission of sins because I don’t think that the Baptists or the CoC’s script for a baptismal service contains magic words. I don’t think a person with a childlike faith who doesn’t understand fully the meaning of baptism but is obedient in a Baptist church is any more or less saved than a person who wrote a doctoral theological dissertation on baptism before allowing their own baptism in the Church of Christ. And I don't think a person walking out of a church dedicated to Christ and willing to be obedient in baptism at the next oportunity is on thier way to hell just because they haven't gotten wet yet.
The question is, do you?
Just some things to think about.
Grace and Peace
