Where Does The Bible Say...? (HOF thread)
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JustAChristian
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"fecetious?" Eeewwwww....
BChristianK
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Just a Christian,
Concerning the thief on the cross, I claimed that your judgment doesn’t follow the scriptures, clearly the thief was saved without baptism, now you said:
That doesn’t solve the problem either. John the Baptist came preaching baptism of repentance for the remission of sins (Mark 1:4). Jesus’ baptized more people than John long before He was crucified (John 4:1) do you think that these baptisms were unlawful?
I do agree that the New Covenant was not inaugurated until the death of Christ, but we nonetheless see the gospel of the Kingdom being preached by Christ and baptism being carried out anticipating the new covenant.
Boy, I wish you were around to correct Mark when He wrote.
You said:
Your theology has some holes here my friend.
Actually it was said that Israel was baptized into Moses (1 Cor 10:2), that Noah was a figure of baptism (1 Peter 3:20) which tells us that getting wet doesn’t save one person (a point you have yet to address) but what does save is the pledge of a good consciences toward God. And that Abraham was justified by faith alone apart from works (no baptism) and then Paul says we are saved by the faith of Abraham (Romans 4:16). So these figures’ salvific experiences aren’t as irrelevant to ours as you may be insinuating.
Big theological oops here!
And..
I’d like for you to point out for me if they received the spirit before or after they were baptized..
Hmmm?
Interestingly, Peter often spoke of Repentance, Acts 3:19, Acts 8:22 ( and this to Simon who had already been baptized by Phillip), Paul tells the folks at the Aereopogus to repent (no baptism mentioned), Paul again before Agrippa, speaks of repentance (no call to baptism here either).
Again, I have said that following repentance and confession one should be baptized, you said:
Except, as I have pointed out, Epesians 1:13, just 10 verses later) Paul says that belief was sufficient for this.
Was Cornelius hellbound before he was baptized (Acts 10)?
What about Lydia, did she have a one way ticket straight to hell before she was baptized? (Acts 16:14).
The scriptures pronounce Cornelius as righteous and God fearing, the word says Lydia was “a worshiper of God.� Shall we conclude that they were on their way to hell while fearing God and worshiping Him?
Now, regarding those who have not been baptized, you say.
Oh, but wait, your gonna tell me in your next post that your church is the only faithful church, huh?
:chuckle:
If you don’t mind, start with a Greek exegesis of the passage and show me how we must all logically conclude that water meant baptism here.
Now you said:
Sure.
Now, as I said about acts 10, it is clear that the household of Cornelius received Holy Spirit before they were baptized. In fact, it was the very reception of Holy Spirit that brought about their baptism.
This doesn’t follow your formula.
Of:
1. Repent
2. Baptism
3. Receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Which is clearly evident that Peter wasn’t espousing a formula in Acts 2:38.
So when you say:
There are a whole mess of problems with such a crazy argument.
First, there is no other place in scripture that refers to Cornelius or his household having a separate encounter with the Holy Spirit. Second, Peter says,
Are you going to argue that Peter and the 12 didn’t have an indwelling experience with the Holy Spirit? If not, then it would be pretty silly to say that Cornelius didn’t by virtue of this event based on Peter’s words, wouldn’t it?
Finally I spoke of Ephesians 1:13, you said:
Now you admitted:
You just said you wouldn’t footnote it. Instead, you footnoted it with *�believe is all inclusive of faith, repentance, confession and baptism.�
Actually, belief is just all inclusive of belief.
‘cause that’s always the formula for how salvation happens, unless of course you include the thief on the cross (you gotta deal with that whole John the Baptist and Jesus baptizing thing before you can explain this one away) and you still have yet to explain away the baptism of cornelius which was repentance from sin (even before Peter got there since he was told Cornelius was righteous and God fearing), then comes the sealing of the Holy Spirit and then water baptism.
You see, your church has to explain away all these scriptures because it is founded on it being the only true church because it is the only church that does these things in the right order. The problem with this is that you can’t prove the order consistently throughout the scripture. All the elements are important: repentance, confession of faith, baptism, etc… But they are not formulaic.
Now finally, in response to my question about the guy who got hit by a bus on his way into the church to be baptized, you said:
1 Peter 4:5, the quick and the dead have already been evangelized.
Rev 19:11 is a judgement of those on the earth whom the book has repeatedly said have not repented (Rev 9:21, 16:9, 16:11) So you think his poor luck puts him among the likes of these?
Oh, but you are about to tell me that it didn’t happen in your church by one of your pastors so it didn’t take, right?
I certainly hope not. That would tell me that you adhere to the cultic Boston Church of Christ movement which has more theological problems than one can count on one hand. What is more, they make the pretentious claim that they are the only true church. Honestly, that is really the most braggadocios, ignorant claim ever uttered. We should talk about their interpretation of Matthew 28:19 sometime, it is hilarious for its lack of understanding of the scripture.
:hammer:
Grace and Peace
P.s, Your really gonna have to explain this one to me…
I suppose you think that Acts 2:39 means that the promise of HELLFIRE is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord will call to Himself.
Concerning the thief on the cross, I claimed that your judgment doesn’t follow the scriptures, clearly the thief was saved without baptism, now you said:
Ah, so the law that was in affect while Jesus hung on the cross had nothing to do with baptism then?
That doesn’t solve the problem either. John the Baptist came preaching baptism of repentance for the remission of sins (Mark 1:4). Jesus’ baptized more people than John long before He was crucified (John 4:1) do you think that these baptisms were unlawful?
So then explain to me both the ministries of John and Jesus as they relate to baptism.
I do agree that the New Covenant was not inaugurated until the death of Christ, but we nonetheless see the gospel of the Kingdom being preached by Christ and baptism being carried out anticipating the new covenant.
So before the cross baptism wasn’t for the forgiveness of sins?
Boy, I wish you were around to correct Mark when He wrote.
You said:
I see, so a trip out to see John was just optional, and Jesus’ ministry of baptism was just for kicks and giggles right?
Your theology has some holes here my friend.
I thought Noah was saved by faith.
Now, I agree totally that his faith was an active faith that didn’t just sit there when God told him to build an ark, but rather motivated him toward obedience to God’s commands, but he didn’t become heir of the righteousness that comes by faith because he built a boat, it was because he was faithful and building a boat just happened to be the way he expressed that.
Abraham was saved not by worshiping at his families alter, but by faith.
It was an issue with the thief on the cross, John was baptizing with a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins, remember?
Actually it was said that Israel was baptized into Moses (1 Cor 10:2), that Noah was a figure of baptism (1 Peter 3:20) which tells us that getting wet doesn’t save one person (a point you have yet to address) but what does save is the pledge of a good consciences toward God. And that Abraham was justified by faith alone apart from works (no baptism) and then Paul says we are saved by the faith of Abraham (Romans 4:16). So these figures’ salvific experiences aren’t as irrelevant to ours as you may be insinuating.
Once again, in the time period you claim no such baptism was needed for the remission of sins, John came preaching a baptism for the remission of sins.
Big theological oops here!
Right, do you mind explaining to me how this negates anything I have said up to now?
Ok. I agree to that.
Agreed.
Ah, shouldn’t we include the other stuff in those passages too instead taking God’s word out of context?
And..
I’d like for you to point out for me if they received the spirit before or after they were baptized..
Hmmm?
Interestingly, Peter often spoke of Repentance, Acts 3:19, Acts 8:22 ( and this to Simon who had already been baptized by Phillip), Paul tells the folks at the Aereopogus to repent (no baptism mentioned), Paul again before Agrippa, speaks of repentance (no call to baptism here either).
I don’t think we have yet to agree, the Baptists (not all of them by the way) have erroneously assigned baptism into a diminutive role. I have already spoken of that. There are many Baptists who believe as I do that the way a person publicly professes Christ is through baptism. I don’t find it necessary to recount for Baptist doctrine, we should be looking to God’s word. A medical reason that a person cannot be immersion baptized would be a stoma from chemotherapy. Any water entry into this could complicate the persons health and I have heard of cases where it was fatal.
Again, I have said that following repentance and confession one should be baptized, you said:
So you think getting wet places one in Christ.
Except, as I have pointed out, Epesians 1:13, just 10 verses later) Paul says that belief was sufficient for this.
I would say that if a person has come to fully understand the importance of baptism, but refuses to engage in it, it is entirely possible they do so because their hearts have not truly been converted. Someone who truly wishes to claim Jesus as their Lord would not shy away from such a public profession of faith. So, yes, it is possible.
I’d agree that they weren’t “added to their number�, until they were baptized.
That’s not such an easy line to draw my friend.
Was Cornelius hellbound before he was baptized (Acts 10)?
What about Lydia, did she have a one way ticket straight to hell before she was baptized? (Acts 16:14).
The scriptures pronounce Cornelius as righteous and God fearing, the word says Lydia was “a worshiper of God.� Shall we conclude that they were on their way to hell while fearing God and worshiping Him?
No arguments here.
No arguments. Personally, after my heart had turned and I had repented, I requested to be baptized during the very next service (4 days later to be exact).
Now, regarding those who have not been baptized, you say.
He did. Have you heard their theological arguments for why they are not baptized?
It does, when properly interpreted, but lets accept a measure of humility my friend, just because we subscribe to it doesn’t make it “rightly divided.�
This argument may bite you back. We’ll see if it does.
Right, and guess what? The organization you belong to is one of those 1,500 denominations or organizations teaching different doctrines….
Oh, but wait, your gonna tell me in your next post that your church is the only faithful church, huh?
:chuckle:
I don’t know, why do you call Him Lord, Lord and yet do not do the things he says. Unless of course you have surpassed Paul who claimed only to be the chief of sinners and are about to tell us that you are perfect, as the Father is perfect (Matthew 5:48).
You talk about it like it is a ticket to a movie. Perhaps it is a bit more thoughtful than that…
Right, now of all of the well informed interpretations of this passage, tell me how you are absolutely sure your interpretation (that the water was baptism) is correct.
If you don’t mind, start with a Greek exegesis of the passage and show me how we must all logically conclude that water meant baptism here.
The Ethiopian was baptized as a profession of his faith, correct.
No, I see it as a public demonstration of repentance, faith and a public profession of Christ. I do see it as absolutely necessary and not unconnected to one’s salvific experience. I don’t say, as do you, that one cannot be saved until they are baptized. And I certainly don’t say, as I fear you will eventually say, that one is not saved unless they are baptized in your church.
Agreed.
Right, God accepts us on the basis of Christ’s blood, not the baptismal waters.
Do you really need me to show you why Mark 16:16 is not a great place to hang your theological hat?
Now you said:
Thank you.
You mean have I considered that those who learn from Christ should be called Christians?
Sure.
Now, as I said about acts 10, it is clear that the household of Cornelius received Holy Spirit before they were baptized. In fact, it was the very reception of Holy Spirit that brought about their baptism.
This doesn’t follow your formula.
Of:
1. Repent
2. Baptism
3. Receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Which is clearly evident that Peter wasn’t espousing a formula in Acts 2:38.
So when you say:
Yes, Cornelius and his household. Acts 10, I thought that was clear. Ah, but you are probably going to try to pull the ol’ “that wasn’t an indwelling of the Holy Spirit.�
There are a whole mess of problems with such a crazy argument.
First, there is no other place in scripture that refers to Cornelius or his household having a separate encounter with the Holy Spirit. Second, Peter says,
Are you going to argue that Peter and the 12 didn’t have an indwelling experience with the Holy Spirit? If not, then it would be pretty silly to say that Cornelius didn’t by virtue of this event based on Peter’s words, wouldn’t it?
Finally I spoke of Ephesians 1:13, you said:
No, it is absolutely necessary to read the word as it is written not as you add to it.
I don’t argue that they weren’t baptized, I am arguing that the passage shows the sufficiency of faith for salvation. In other words, salvation isn’t formulaic.
Now you admitted:
Good, now lets hope you don’t go footnoting Ephesians 1:13 anyway.
:doh:
You just said you wouldn’t footnote it. Instead, you footnoted it with *�believe is all inclusive of faith, repentance, confession and baptism.�
Actually, belief is just all inclusive of belief.
Right
‘cause that’s always the formula for how salvation happens, unless of course you include the thief on the cross (you gotta deal with that whole John the Baptist and Jesus baptizing thing before you can explain this one away) and you still have yet to explain away the baptism of cornelius which was repentance from sin (even before Peter got there since he was told Cornelius was righteous and God fearing), then comes the sealing of the Holy Spirit and then water baptism.You see, your church has to explain away all these scriptures because it is founded on it being the only true church because it is the only church that does these things in the right order. The problem with this is that you can’t prove the order consistently throughout the scripture. All the elements are important: repentance, confession of faith, baptism, etc… But they are not formulaic.
Now finally, in response to my question about the guy who got hit by a bus on his way into the church to be baptized, you said:
No idea what 2 Tim 2:1 has to do with hades..
1 Peter 4:5, the quick and the dead have already been evangelized.
Rev 19:11 is a judgement of those on the earth whom the book has repeatedly said have not repented (Rev 9:21, 16:9, 16:11) So you think his poor luck puts him among the likes of these?
I surely have, and will continue to do so. I have repented, believed, confessed, been baptized by immersion.
Oh, but you are about to tell me that it didn’t happen in your church by one of your pastors so it didn’t take, right?
I certainly hope not. That would tell me that you adhere to the cultic Boston Church of Christ movement which has more theological problems than one can count on one hand. What is more, they make the pretentious claim that they are the only true church. Honestly, that is really the most braggadocios, ignorant claim ever uttered. We should talk about their interpretation of Matthew 28:19 sometime, it is hilarious for its lack of understanding of the scripture.
:hammer:
Grace and Peace
P.s, Your really gonna have to explain this one to me…
So you think that Peter and the 12 on Pentecost as well as the household of Cornelius were baptized into the flames of Hell fire?
I suppose you think that Acts 2:39 means that the promise of HELLFIRE is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord will call to Himself.
Last edited:
JustAChristian
New member
Are There Two Gospels?
Are There Two Gospels?
lighthouse,
Let us look at the point you raise: "Water baptism is a contingent of the OT law, not of the law of grace. Christ taught that the law was part of the plan, because it was, at the time He walked the earth."
Where do you find water baptism commanded under the Law? John's baptism was not under the Mosaic Law. Yes, it was preached during the closing days of the dispensation of the Law of Moses, but was never a part of that Law. Jesus' baptism was not under the Law as well. The Law did not contain any ordinances concerning baptism as preached by John or Jesus. The divers washes were not for the remission of sins. This is what brought John and Jesus under fire of the Pharisees.
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John each wrote inspired epistles telling us how to be saved. I believe we aught to accept inspired writers over uninspired external evidence, don’t you? I don’t want to be concluded as saying external evidence is not often valid. It often is. I often accept it, but at this time you external evidence is inaccurate as to proper relationship and contrary to the inspired writers
So, you believe there are two different messages (gospels) a law of works and a law of grace? Right? You are trying to say that Peter told Cornelius to “work righteousness and save yourself by the righteous works� aren’t you? And you are trying to say that Paul told Titus that “people are not saved by doing righteous works� aren’t you? You are trying to make inspired apostles of God oppose each other? Aren’t you? Well, don’t you know that Paul, when he went to every city, he would FIRST preach to the Jews? Don’t you see that in the Acts and in the epistles? If you don’t, you’re spiritually blind! Paul and Barnabas always spoke where there was a synagogue first(Acts 13:14-16). They preached the same message to both Jews and Gentiles who were at the synagogue : “Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.� (Acts 13:26 ). “The word of this salvation� is the one Gospel; to the “stock of Abraham [Jews] and “whesoever among you who fear God� [the Gentiles]. One message only; not a separate message for each group.
Some hold that mixing gospel messages will never cause one to come to the knowledge of the truth, but there are no two dispensational massages to mix. There is one gospel; O-N-E gospel! To the Jew first and also to the Greek (Rom. 1:16). Paul does not say “to the Jew first with another gospel to the Gentiles.� The Gospel (one) is to the Jews in the beginning of preaching from Pentecost forward, and also to the Greeks (beginning at the house of Cornelius) there is only one message. That message is that salvation has come to man through Christ and man can be cleansed of sins through believing and obey the gospel.
Some like you believe that water baptism is a work of man. Is that not correct? Let us discuss works of righteousness. Works of righteousness do not include all works. There are commandments of Christ to be accomplished. We are to pray, right? Yes ! (1 Thess 5:17). Will we be saved if we refuse to pray? No, because we will be in defiance of God. So, prayer is expected of us and we can be lost without it. Is it a righteous work? Yes! Because all of God’s commandments are righteous (Ps 119:172). This will apply to every thing that is commanded. Baptism for the remission of sins is commanded and we will be lost without it. Doing what God tells us to do simply for the sake of doing them will not prevail us anything. We must seek the spiral value of doing the work. Hearing the word, believing in Christ, repenting of sins, confessing Christ as Lord and being baptized are all commandments of Christ. Christ is righteous and his commandments are righteous. Following Christ is to be saved. Let us be fully persuaded that meritorious works can not save us from our sins. This can only be accomplished by doing the will of God (Matthew 7:21-23).
The incorruptible seed is the word of God (Luke 8:11). The word of God recorded in the New Testament is one covenant to the Jew first and also to the Gentile. O-N-E message. O-N-E gospel!
JustAChristian :angel:
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." (Romans 1:16 AV)
Are There Two Gospels?
lighthouse,
Let us look at the point you raise: "Water baptism is a contingent of the OT law, not of the law of grace. Christ taught that the law was part of the plan, because it was, at the time He walked the earth."
Where do you find water baptism commanded under the Law? John's baptism was not under the Mosaic Law. Yes, it was preached during the closing days of the dispensation of the Law of Moses, but was never a part of that Law. Jesus' baptism was not under the Law as well. The Law did not contain any ordinances concerning baptism as preached by John or Jesus. The divers washes were not for the remission of sins. This is what brought John and Jesus under fire of the Pharisees.
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John each wrote inspired epistles telling us how to be saved. I believe we aught to accept inspired writers over uninspired external evidence, don’t you? I don’t want to be concluded as saying external evidence is not often valid. It often is. I often accept it, but at this time you external evidence is inaccurate as to proper relationship and contrary to the inspired writers
So, you believe there are two different messages (gospels) a law of works and a law of grace? Right? You are trying to say that Peter told Cornelius to “work righteousness and save yourself by the righteous works� aren’t you? And you are trying to say that Paul told Titus that “people are not saved by doing righteous works� aren’t you? You are trying to make inspired apostles of God oppose each other? Aren’t you? Well, don’t you know that Paul, when he went to every city, he would FIRST preach to the Jews? Don’t you see that in the Acts and in the epistles? If you don’t, you’re spiritually blind! Paul and Barnabas always spoke where there was a synagogue first(Acts 13:14-16). They preached the same message to both Jews and Gentiles who were at the synagogue : “Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.� (Acts 13:26 ). “The word of this salvation� is the one Gospel; to the “stock of Abraham [Jews] and “whesoever among you who fear God� [the Gentiles]. One message only; not a separate message for each group.
Some hold that mixing gospel messages will never cause one to come to the knowledge of the truth, but there are no two dispensational massages to mix. There is one gospel; O-N-E gospel! To the Jew first and also to the Greek (Rom. 1:16). Paul does not say “to the Jew first with another gospel to the Gentiles.� The Gospel (one) is to the Jews in the beginning of preaching from Pentecost forward, and also to the Greeks (beginning at the house of Cornelius) there is only one message. That message is that salvation has come to man through Christ and man can be cleansed of sins through believing and obey the gospel.
Some like you believe that water baptism is a work of man. Is that not correct? Let us discuss works of righteousness. Works of righteousness do not include all works. There are commandments of Christ to be accomplished. We are to pray, right? Yes ! (1 Thess 5:17). Will we be saved if we refuse to pray? No, because we will be in defiance of God. So, prayer is expected of us and we can be lost without it. Is it a righteous work? Yes! Because all of God’s commandments are righteous (Ps 119:172). This will apply to every thing that is commanded. Baptism for the remission of sins is commanded and we will be lost without it. Doing what God tells us to do simply for the sake of doing them will not prevail us anything. We must seek the spiral value of doing the work. Hearing the word, believing in Christ, repenting of sins, confessing Christ as Lord and being baptized are all commandments of Christ. Christ is righteous and his commandments are righteous. Following Christ is to be saved. Let us be fully persuaded that meritorious works can not save us from our sins. This can only be accomplished by doing the will of God (Matthew 7:21-23).
The incorruptible seed is the word of God (Luke 8:11). The word of God recorded in the New Testament is one covenant to the Jew first and also to the Gentile. O-N-E message. O-N-E gospel!
JustAChristian :angel:
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." (Romans 1:16 AV)
JustAChristian
New member
BChristianK continues
BChristianK continues
BChristianK begins this extremely long post by saying:
Just a Christian,
Concerning the thief on the cross, I claimed that your judgment doesn’t follow the scriptures, clearly the thief was saved without baptism. Ah, so the law that was in affect while Jesus hung on the cross had nothing to do with baptism then?
JustAChristian responds:
Correct.
BChristianK says:
That doesn’t solve the problem either. John the Baptist came preaching baptism of repentance for the remission of sins (Mark 1:4). Jesus’ baptized more people than John long before He was crucified (John 4:1) do you think that these baptisms were unlawful?
JustAChristian responds:
No, they were during the dispensation of the Law of Moses, but was not within the confinds of the written law. John came preaching and baptizing in approval of Christ as a forerunner of Christ to prepare the way for the entrance of Christ (Mark 1:4).
BChristianK says:
So then explain to me both the ministries of John and Jesus as they relate to baptism.
JustAChristian responds:
John was a forerunner to prepare a people for the coming of Christ. Jesus came to proclaim the gospel of the Kingdom of God, the power of God unto salvation (Mark1:4; 1:14; Romans 1:16)
BChristianK says:
I do agree that the New Covenant was not inaugurated until the death of Christ, but we nonetheless see the gospel of the Kingdom being preached by Christ and baptism being carried out anticipating the new covenant.
JustAChristian responds:
Yes, and these people were cleansed of their sins (Luke 3:3), but only to prepare them to receive Christ and the gospel (Luke 8:1; Acts 10:36). When the law of Christ came into effect the message and baptism by John was no longer valid (Acts 19:1-6).
BChristianK says:
So before the cross baptism wasn’t for the forgiveness of sins?
Boy, I wish you were around to correct Mark when He wrote.
JustAChristian responds:
On the contrary, it is my understanding that baptism was for the remission of sins. However, the eternal gospel was not yet being preached for Christ had not died and been raised.
BChristianK says:
The thief was not baptized with the baptism of forgiveness of sins because he was not subject to that commandment at the time.
JustAChristian responds:
It can not be ascertained if this man was baptized under John’s baptism or if he was even a Jew. If he was a Jew and heard the message of John the baptizer, he should have obey the massage and been baptized. He would have then had his sins forgiven by God for obedience to John’s message and prepared for the coming of the Messiah. He would not have been subjected to the eternal gospel for Christ was not yet dead and raised for the dead.
BChristianK says:
I see, so a trip out to see John was just optional, and Jesus’ ministry of baptism was just for kicks and giggles right?
JustAChristian responds:
Your statement is not worthy of consideration.
BChristianK says:
Your theology has some holes here my friend.
JustAChristian responds:
Stay with me, friend, there is more to come...we’ll see if there are any real holes.
BChristianK says:
I thought Noah was saved by faith.
JustAChristian responds:
Wasn’t his works shown to be works of faith? Are you limiting the acts of faith? Have you never read James on the subject of faith? May I commend to you James 2:24?
BChristianK says:
Now, I agree totally that his faith was an active faith that didn’t just sit there when God told him to build an ark, but rather motivated him toward obedience to God’s commands, but he didn’t become heir of the righteousness that comes by faith because he built a boat, it was because he was faithful and building a boat just happened to be the way he expressed that.
JustAChristian responds:
Amazing, we see it in the same way!
BChristianK says:
Abraham was saved not by worshiping at his families alter, but by faith.
JustAChristian responds:
Wasn’t his works of faith? Are you limiting the acts of faith? Have you never read James on the subject of faith? May I commend to you again James 2:24?
BChristianK says:
It was an issue with the thief on the cross, John was baptizing with a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins, remember?
JustAChristian responds:
If he was a Jew it is given that he would have been in proximity of hearing and obeying the preaching of John. However Christ was not yet dead and risen for the dead and His covenant was not validated by the shedding of blood in His death.
BChristianK says:
Actually it was said that Israel was baptized into Moses (1 Cor 10:2), that Noah was a figure of baptism (1 Peter 3:20) which tells us that getting wet doesn’t save one person (a point you have yet to address) but what does save is the pledge of a good consciences toward God. And that Abraham was justified by faith alone apart from works (no baptism) and then Paul says we are saved by the faith of Abraham (Romans 4:16). So these figures’ salvific experiences aren’t as irrelevant to ours as you may be insinuating.
JustAChristian responds:
1. Baptized into Moses...while the cloud overshadowed the multitude in the wilderness. Another definition of baptism is “to be overwhelmed� which happened with the cloud.
2. Noah and his family were saved in the ark and the water separated them from the darkness of the sinful world. The like figure is found, Peter says, in our baptism. It separates us from sins in obedience of faith.
3. Getting “wet with water� will not save, but getting baptized for the remission of sin is obedient faith and will affect salvation from sins.
4. “...a good conscience toward God...� This is one’s answering the commandment to enter Christ by baptism (Gal. 3:26-27; cf. Rom. 6:4, 17). “Through the resurrection of Jesus Chris.� This salvation through obedience is made sure by the resurrection of Jesus from the dead (1 Cor. 15:17-18).
5. Abraham’s faith was an obedient faith. He did what God told him to do. God accepted his faith and extended to him grace. It is the same for us. When we obey God extends grace (Eph. 2:8-9).
BChristianK says:
Once again, in the time period you claim no such baptism was needed for the remission of sins, John came preaching a baptism for the remission of sins.
JustAChristian responds:
I believe I have clarified my position on this point, but if you feel I am not clear on it let me know.
BChristianK says:
Big theological oops here!
JustAChristian responds:
Not worthy of a statement!
BChristianK says:
Right, do you mind explaining to me how this negates anything I have said up to now?
JustAChristian responds:
It is not necessarily extended to negate anything you have said up to now, but to solidify my position. I preach and baptize because it is “in word� and in the name of the Lord Jesus.
BChristianK says:
Ok. I agree to that.
JAC's statement
quote:
I have no right to do an “afterthought� but only that which is authorized.
BChristianK says:
Agreed.
BChristianK says:
Ah, shouldn’t we include the other stuff in those passages too instead taking God’s word out of context?
JustAChristian responds:
“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.� (Acts 2:38 AV)
� Peter preached, they questioned “What shall we do?�
� “Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins.�
� As a result of being obedient to the command of the apostle, “...and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit...�
“Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?� (Acts 10:47 AV)
â—? Peter preached the gospel received from Christ (Matthew 28:18-20).
â—? While he was preaching the Holy Spirit came in a baptismal form over the household of Cornelius like it did on Pentecost over the apostles (Acts 11:15), not to save them but as a sign to Peter and his accompaniment from Joppa.
â—? Peter understood the baptismal measure of the Holy Spirit over the household of Cornelius to mean that what he was doing in being there and preaching was the will of God.
â—? Baptism was administered to those that believed.
BchristianK says:
And..
I’d like for you to point out for me if they received the spirit before or after they were baptized..
JustAChristian responds:
They received the baptismal measure over the household as a sign to the apostle and his company and the after baptism in water for the remission of sins an indwelling measure of the Spirit as a indication of salvation (Romans 8:9; Galatians 4:6; 1 Peter 1:11).
BChristianK says:
Hmmm? Interestingly, Peter often spoke of Repentance, Acts 3:19, Acts 8:22 ( and this to Simon who had already been baptized by Phillip), Paul tells the folks at the Aereopogus to repent (no baptism mentioned), Paul again before Agrippa, speaks of repentance (no call to baptism here either).
JustAChristian responds:
A mathematical axiom helps us to understand this better. “The whole of anything is the sum of its parts.� When you add up all the parts you see the whole. There is also a “figure of speech� called a “synecdoche.� The synecdoche is the exchange of one idea for an associated idea. While metonymy is an exchange between two related nouns, the synecdoche is an exchange made between two associated ideas. The synecdoche is a figure of speech where a part is put for a whole, and where a whole is put for a part. It involves putting a singular for a plural and a plural for a singular. The Bible abounds with this figure of speech. Jesus used this figure of speech when he taught the disciples to pray “...give us this day our daily bread...� Bread is a “synecdoche� which stand for all the physical needs one needs. Believe in the verse Acts 16:31 is a singular verb placed for a plural and as such it stands for the whole of that which is needed in order to be obedient. It includes, faith in Christ as God’s Son, repentance of sins, confession of Christ publically, and baptism for the remission of sins. Understanding the axiom that the whole of anything consist of the sums of its parts and the figure of speech “synecdoche� will help you to see that each picture of conversion does not necessarily have to express every need unto salvation each time.
BChristianK says:
I don’t think we have yet to agree, the Baptists (not all of them by the way) have erroneously assigned baptism into a diminutive role. I have already spoken of that. There are many Baptists who believe as I do that the way a person publicly professes Christ is through baptism. I don’t find it necessary to recount for Baptist doctrine, we should be looking to God’s word. A medical reason that a person cannot be immersion baptized would be a stoma from chemotherapy. Any water entry into this could complicate the persons health and I have heard of cases where it was fatal.
JustAChristian responds:
Are you saying that you there is no medically practical way to prevent the water from entering the stoma? What about a fully zipped body bag with an sealed air supply? Where there is a will there is a way!
BChristianK says:
So you think getting wet places one in Christ.
JustAChristian responds:
You make that statement based on one of two reasons. Either you are totally ignorant of the facts that I have presented or so prejudicial that you will not accept them. No where have I ever indicated that I believe just getting wet places one in Christ. Entrance comes when we are buried in like manner as the actual burial of Christ in the tomb (Romans 6:4; Romans 6:17-18)
BChristianK says:
Except, as I have pointed out, Epesians 1:13, just 10 verses later) Paul says that belief was sufficient for this.
JustAChristian responds:
Another synecdoche.
BChristianK says:
I’d agree that they weren’t “added to their number�, until they were baptized.
JustAChristian responds:
Good!
BChristianK says:
That’s not such an easy line to draw my friend. Was Cornelius hell bound before he was baptized (Acts 10)?
JustAChristian responds:
If a missionary shares information on God being our Creator with a unbeliever but does not have time during his sermon to where he talks about Christ and one of his listeners falls dead, will the person have eternal life in light of John 8:24 and Acts 4:12? What about repentance? What about confession? What about baptism? Has the gospel been obeyed? I would invite you to take a moment and study 2nd Thess. 1:8 and Rom. 2:8.
BChristianK says:
What about Lydia, did she have a one way ticket straight to hell before she was baptized? (Acts 16:14).
JustAChristian responds:
If I understand the purpose of the gospel of Jesus Christ, it is in order that mankind may know the good news of salvation through Jesus Christ the Messiah that was not before offered by the Law of Moses. Failure to obey this “power of God unto salvation� places one in jeopardy of condemnation. There will be no sins in heaven (Rev. 21:8). Do you not sense the need to preach the pure unadulterated gospel of Christ?
BChristianK says:
The scriptures pronounce Cornelius as righteous and God fearing, the word says Lydia was “a worshiper of God.� Shall we conclude that they were on their way to hell while fearing God and worshiping Him?
JustAChristian responds:
So was Paul who tells of his ignorance and unbelief (1 Tim. 1:13). He was a zealous and devoted Jew (Acts 26:5; Phil 3:5). The manner in which he worshiped was not according to the covenant then in effect. The law had changed. Cornelius was a devoted believer in God as was Lydia, but they did not know the gospel. They were in their sins. Sins separate us from God (Isaiah 59:1-2). When they came to know the gospel and became obedient to its commands from Christ, they were saved from their sins and in harmony with God. Morality has never been the means to salvation. It is good to be moral, but it will not affect forgiveness of sins (Matthew 13:23).
BChristianK says:
No arguments. Personally, after my heart had turned and I had repented, I requested to be baptized during the very next service (4 days later to be exact).
JustAChristian responds:
Can you imagine Peter or Paul allowing such an behavior What about the Ethiopian nobleman (Acts 8). Don’t you sense he believe in the immediate importance of baptism?
BChristianK says:
He did. Have you heard their theological arguments for why they are not baptized?
JustAChristian responds:
Generally people are not baptized because of the way they have been taught. There are those who have not been taught. There are also those who will never be taught. God is a righteous judge on each situation and will judge righteously. Because you and I know what the Bible says on baptism we are without excuse to fail to obey it.
BChristianK says:
It does, when properly interpreted, but lets accept a measure of humility my friend, just because we subscribe to it doesn’t make it “rightly divided.�
JustAChristian responds:
Sorry, but I don’t follow you on this statement.
BChristianK says:
This argument may bite you back. We’ll see if it does.
JustAChristian responds:
We’ll see.
BChristianK says:
Right, and guess what? The organization you belong to is one of those 1,500 denominations or organizations teaching different doctrines….
JustAChristian responds:
“Prove all things...� 1 Thess. 5:21
BChristianK says:
Oh, but wait, your gonna tell me in your next post that your church is the only faithful church, huh?
JustAChristian responds:
I would rather not be debating churches at this time. Do you know what the gospel says on the matter of salvation? We know mutually that there are only Christians in the Lord’s church, don’t we? We need to be sure that we are worshiping “in spirit and in truth� (John 4:24) or it is vein worship (Mark 7:7). Can you give me the least bit of hint by verse that Christ will accept division of any sort?
BChristianK says:
I don’t know, why do you call Him Lord, Lord and yet do not do the things he says. Unless of course you have surpassed Paul who claimed only to be the chief of sinners and are about to tell us that you are perfect, as the Father is perfect (Matthew 5:48).
JustAChristian responds:
No, I am not perfect is any stretch of the imagination. I do say that I do not wish to compromise the scriptures, properly interpreted, and seek to do the will of the Father in Heaven. Find me doing otherwise and I am willing to change.
BChristianK says:
You talk about it like it is a ticket to a movie. Perhaps it is a bit more thoughtful than that…
JustAChristian responds:
Sorry for any grammatical errors .
BChristianK says:
Right, now of all of the well informed interpretations of this passage, tell me how you are absolutely sure your interpretation (that the water was baptism) is correct.
If you don’t mind, start with a Greek exegesis of the passage and show me how we must all logically conclude that water meant baptism here.
JustAChristian responds:
From Robertson Word Pictures (RWP) we read: {Of water and the Spirit} (ex udatos kai pneumatos). Nicodemus had failed utterly to grasp the idea of the spiritual birth as essential to entrance into the Kingdom of God. He knew only Jews as members of that kingdom, the political kingdom of Pharisaic hope which was to make all the world Jewish (Pharisaic) under the King Messiah. Why does Jesus add ex udatos here? In verse 3 we have "anwqen" (from above) which is repeated in verse#7, while in verse 8 we have only ek tou pneumatos (of the Spirit) in the best manuscripts. Many theories exist. One view makes baptism, referred to by ex udatoj (coming up out of water), essential to the birth of the Spirit, as the means of obtaining the new birth of the Spirit. If so, why is water mentioned only once in the three demands of Jesus(vv. 3,5,7)? Calvin makes water and Spirit refer to the one act (the cleansing work of the Spirit). Some insist on the language in verse 6 as meaning the birth of the flesh coming in a sac of water in contrast to the birth of the Spirit. One wonders after all what was the precise purpose of Jesus with Nicodemus, the Pharisaic ceremonialist, who had failed to grasp the idea of spiritual birth which is a commonplace to us. By using water (the symbol before the thing signified) first and adding Spirit, he may have hoped to turn the mind of Nicodemus away from mere physical birth and, by pointing to the baptism of John on confession of sin which the Pharisees had rejected, to turn his attention to the birth from above by the Spirit. That is to say the mention of "water" here may have been for the purpose of helping Nicodemus without laying down a fundamental principle of salvation as being by means of baptism. Here Jesus uses eiselqein (enter) instead of idein (see) of verse 3, but with the same essential idea (participation in the kingdom).
Now I believe of course that water can only be referring to water baptism. In the same chapter we read, “After these things came Jesus and his disciples inot the land of Judea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. “After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized� (John 3:22-23 AV). So water and baptism are firmly linked in this chapter. I will treat objections to this passage interpreted as talking of water baptism later. But it is obvious that Jesus is talking of a new birth. This new birth consists of water and a work of the Holy Spirit. The Bible reveals the Holy Spirit works in conviction, conversion and sanctification through the word of God. In Ephesians 6:17 it says, “And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.� Through the word of God the Spirit brings forth faith (Romans 10:17), and repentance (Acts 2:38), and he commands us to go into the waters of baptism for the remissions of sins. That’s the Spirit’s part in salvation. The water plays it’s part, for sins are washed away in baptism as is shown in Acts 22:16. Simply saying, the Spirit’s part in the new birth is truth and what it produces. The water’s part is baptism.
BChristianK says:
The Ethiopian was baptized as a profession of his faith, correct.
JustAChristian responds:
What does the scriptures say? Does it say “as a profession of his faith?� In context with the balance of the New Testament on baptism, can you find any statement “as a profession of his faith with respect to baptism. I believe the eunuch was baptized to wash away his sins and in order to obey the provisions of the new birth. Within the course of Philip preaching “Jesus� he no doubt speaks of baptism prompting the eunuch to quiz on the subject. Faith comes by hearing... (Romans 10:17). He heard like those on Pentecost the essentiality of baptism and was prompted by the presence of the water to answer the command and be added to the kingdom of God.
BChristianK says:
No, I see it as a public demonstration of repentance, faith and a public profession of Christ. I do see it as absolutely necessary and not unconnected to one’s salvific experience. I don’t say, as do you, that one cannot be saved until they are baptized. And I certainly don’t say, as I fear you will eventually say, that one is not saved unless they are baptized in your church.
JustAChristian responds:
I hope you will continue to study the subject and accept its essentiality unto salvation (Mark 16:16). I have no church. I believe I am a member of the church of Jesus Christ.
BChristianK says:
Agreed.
JustAChristian responds:
Then why do you question it scriptural usage? (1 Peter 3:21).
BChristianK says:
Right, God accepts us on the basis of Christ’s blood, not the baptismal waters.
JustAChristian responds:
In your understanding, how does on obtain the cleansing blood of Christ? Can you sustain your understanding by scripture?
BChristianK says:
Do you really need me to show you why Mark 16:16 is not a great place to hang your theological hat?
JustAChristian responds:
It is your duty to show me that water baptism for the remission of sins is not essential or effective in order to be saved. Thus far you have done a miserable labor in doing so.
BchristianK says:
Have you ever considered that disciples of Christ should only be called “Christians�?
You mean have I considered that those who learn from Christ should be called Christians?
JustAChristian responds:
Yes
BChristianK says:
Sure.
Now, as I said about acts 10, it is clear that the household of Cornelius received Holy Spirit before they were baptized. In fact, it was the very reception of Holy Spirit that brought about their baptism.
This doesn’t follow your formula.
Of:
1. Repent
2. Baptism
3. Receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Which is clearly evident that Peter wasn’t espousing a formula in Acts 2:38.
Yes, Cornelius and his household. Acts 10, I thought that was clear. Ah, but you are probably going to try to pull the ol’ “that wasn’t an indwelling of the Holy Spirit.�
There are a whole mess of problems with such a crazy argument.
First, there is no other place in scripture that refers to Cornelius or his household having a separate encounter with the Holy Spirit. Second, Peter says,
JustAChristian responds:
You are correct. That wasn’t an indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The manifestation of the Spirit at that time was as a witness to the event before the Jews that God has accepted Gentiles to be apart of the kingdom of God through the cleansing blood of Christ in baptism. Thus, Peter commanded those that believed to be baptized. After baptism comes the indwelling (Acts 2:38).
BChristianK says:
Are you going to argue that Peter and the 12 didn’t have an indwelling experience with the Holy Spirit? If not, then it would be pretty silly to say that Cornelius didn’t by virtue of this event based on Peter’s words, wouldn’t it?
JustAChristian responds:
I don’t argue that point at all. I am merely saying that the Spirit coming over the household of Cornelius was not an indwelling. There are only two displays of the manifestation as explained by Peter. The first was on Pentecost and the second was on the household of Cornelius. Neither was for the purpose of indwelling as the “gift of the Holy Spirit� (Acts 2:38). From J. W. McGarvey we read, “After commanding the inquirers to repent and be immersed for the remission of sins, Peter adds the promise, "and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." The gift of the Holy Spirit should not be confounded with the Holy Spirit's gifts, nor with the fruits of the Spirit. The fruits of the Holy Spirit are religious traits of character, and they result from the gift of the Holy Spirit. The latter expression means, the Holy Spirit as a gift. It is analogous to the expression, "promise of the Holy Spirit" in#Ac 2:33, above, where Peter says, "having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has shed forth this which you now see and hear." The gifts of the Holy Spirit were various miraculous powers, intellectual and physical. These were conferred only upon a few individuals, while the gift of the Spirit is promised to all who repent and are immersed.�
BChristianK says:
No, it is absolutely necessary to read the word as it is written not as you add to it.
JustAChristian responds:
Sorry, I should have inserted a “not� between it and absolutely.
BChristianK says:
I don’t argue that they weren’t baptized, I am arguing that the passage shows the sufficiency of faith for salvation. In other words, salvation isn’t formulaic.
Good, now lets hope you don’t go footnoting Ephesians 1:13 anyway.
You just said you wouldn’t footnote it. Instead, you footnoted it with *�believe is all inclusive of faith, repentance, confession and baptism.� Actually, belief is just all inclusive of belief.
JustAChristian responds:
I didn’t say I was not going to comment on the verse, I said, I would agree that any “foot noting� that is not in harmony with the Word of God would be unscriptural.
BChristianK says:
Right ‘cause that’s always the formula for how salvation happens, unless of course you include the thief on the cross (you gotta deal with that whole John the Baptist and Jesus baptizing thing before you can explain this one away) and you still have yet to explain away the baptism of cornelius which was repentance from sin (even before Peter got there since he was told Cornelius was righteous and God fearing), then comes the sealing of the Holy Spirit and then water baptism.
JustAChristian responds:
Events prior to the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ are matters of the Law of Moses (Luke 16:16) “...After that the kingdom of God is preached and every man presseth into it.� After Christ’s resurrection and ascension to receive His Kingdom He had all power to commission and send his disciples into all the world with the eternal gospel of salvation. John’s baptism was a preparatory baptism for the remission of sin preparing a people for the coming of the Messiah (Mark 1:4). John 4:2 tells us that Jesus did not baptize but commissioned his disciples to do so. Again, McGarvey says, “Jesus, as divine Lawgiver, instituted baptism, and his disciples administered it. We nowhere hear of the disciples of John administering baptism. In fact, the Baptist, like the disciples of Jesus, baptized under a divine commission, and could not delegate the power to others. It was the office of Jesus to commission others to this work, not to perform it himself. Had he done so, those baptized by him might have foolishly claimed for themselves some peculiar honor by reason thereof (#1Co 1:14,15). Jesus was the spiritual baptizer, in which baptism the efficacy lies in the administrant; but water baptism, the efficacy of which lies rather in the spirit of the one baptized than in the virtues of the administrant, Jesus left to his disciples.�
Cornelius was told to send to Joppa to one Simon “...he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do; (Acts 10:6). Peter came and commanded him and his household that believed they must be baptized. You need to read Acts 10:22 on what Peter perceived of Cornelius. Nowhere does he say that Cornelius was righteous. Water baptism for the remission of sins will effect the gift of the Holy Spirit as an indwelling and sealing.
BChristianK says:
You see, your church has to explain away all these scriptures because it is founded on it being the only true church because it is the only church that does these things in the right order. The problem with this is that you can’t prove the order consistently throughout the scripture. All the elements are important: repentance, confession of faith, baptism, etc… But they are not formulaic.
JustAChristian responds:
To be consistent they must come in order. Hearing prompts faith (Romans 10:17). Repentance is essential and would be committed before one would be prompted to confess Christ as God’s Son. Philip said to the eunuch, “If you believe you can be baptized� and Jesus commissioned saying “...he that believes and is baptized� prompting us to accept that confession comes before baptism. Call it a formula if you wish. I see it as a God’s plan for salvation.
BChristianK says:
Now finally, in response to my question about the guy who got hit by a bus on his way into the church to be baptized, you said:
No idea what 2 Tim 2:1 has to do with hades..
JustAChristian responds:
I do not see any connection with 2 Tim 2:1 and the Hadean world. Perhaps you do not understand the Hadean world.
McGarvey says and I concur, “Hades (Greek), or Sheol (Hebrew), was the name given to the abode of the dead between death and the resurrection. In it the souls of the wicked are in torment, and those of the righteous enjoy a paradise(#Lu 23:43). The joys of Paradise were conceived of as those of a feast, and the expression "Abraham's bosom" is taken from the custom of reclining on couches at feasts. As a guest leaned upon his left arm, his neighbor on his left might easily lean upon his bosom. Such a position of respect to the master of the house was one of special honor, and indicated great intimacy(#Joh 1:18 13:23). What higher honor or joy could the Jew conceive of than such a condition of intimacy and fellowship with Abraham, the great founder of their race? (#Mt 8:11).�
BChristianK says:
1 Peter 4:5, the quick and the dead have already been evangelized.
JustAChristian responds:
I believe Peter is speaking of some who did receive the gospel, have since died and will be judged in the same manner as those who are alive at the coming of Christ.
BChristianK says:
I surely have, and will continue to do so. I have repented, believed, confessed, been baptized by immersion.
Oh, but you are about to tell me that it didn’t happen in your church by one of your pastors so it didn’t take, right?
I certainly hope not. That would tell me that you adhere to the cultic Boston Church of Christ movement which has more theological problems than one can count on one hand. What is more, they make the pretentious claim that they are the only true church. Honestly, that is really the most braggadocios, ignorant claim ever uttered. We should talk about their interpretation of Matthew 28:19 sometime, it is hilarious for its lack of understanding of the scripture.
JustAChristian responds:
It is apparent that regardless what I may reply to you that you have a preconceived notion that whatever I have to say is not going to be considered. If you wish to communicate with an open mind then I am willing to proceed....in the mean time, where does the Bible said if one will accept the Lord Jesus as their personal savior then they will be saved?
BChristianK says:
Grace and Peace
P.s, Your really gonna have to explain this one to me…
What do you know about “Fire Baptism?� Fire baptism is the eternal baptism of flames of Hell Fire and no one should seek that.
JustAChristian responds:
I believe it deals with the second death of Revelation 20:14. As John said, “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: (Matthew 3:11 AV). John is speaking of Jesus baptizing of some those that heard John with the baptism of fire which would come in disobedience to the gospel. Not all would be baptized as not all would be baptized with the Holy Spirit.
BChristianK says:
So you think that Peter and the 12 on Pentecost as well as the household of Cornelius were baptized into the flames of Hell fire?
JustAChristian responds:
No, that is not my thinking.
BChristianK says:
I suppose you think that Acts 2:39 means that the promise of HELLFIRE is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord will call to Himself.
JustAChristian responds:
The baptism of fire is reserved for the disobedient alone.
JustAChristian :angel:
BChristianK continues
BChristianK begins this extremely long post by saying:
Just a Christian,
Concerning the thief on the cross, I claimed that your judgment doesn’t follow the scriptures, clearly the thief was saved without baptism. Ah, so the law that was in affect while Jesus hung on the cross had nothing to do with baptism then?
JustAChristian responds:
Correct.
BChristianK says:
That doesn’t solve the problem either. John the Baptist came preaching baptism of repentance for the remission of sins (Mark 1:4). Jesus’ baptized more people than John long before He was crucified (John 4:1) do you think that these baptisms were unlawful?
JustAChristian responds:
No, they were during the dispensation of the Law of Moses, but was not within the confinds of the written law. John came preaching and baptizing in approval of Christ as a forerunner of Christ to prepare the way for the entrance of Christ (Mark 1:4).
BChristianK says:
So then explain to me both the ministries of John and Jesus as they relate to baptism.
JustAChristian responds:
John was a forerunner to prepare a people for the coming of Christ. Jesus came to proclaim the gospel of the Kingdom of God, the power of God unto salvation (Mark1:4; 1:14; Romans 1:16)
BChristianK says:
I do agree that the New Covenant was not inaugurated until the death of Christ, but we nonetheless see the gospel of the Kingdom being preached by Christ and baptism being carried out anticipating the new covenant.
JustAChristian responds:
Yes, and these people were cleansed of their sins (Luke 3:3), but only to prepare them to receive Christ and the gospel (Luke 8:1; Acts 10:36). When the law of Christ came into effect the message and baptism by John was no longer valid (Acts 19:1-6).
BChristianK says:
So before the cross baptism wasn’t for the forgiveness of sins?
Boy, I wish you were around to correct Mark when He wrote.
JustAChristian responds:
On the contrary, it is my understanding that baptism was for the remission of sins. However, the eternal gospel was not yet being preached for Christ had not died and been raised.
BChristianK says:
The thief was not baptized with the baptism of forgiveness of sins because he was not subject to that commandment at the time.
JustAChristian responds:
It can not be ascertained if this man was baptized under John’s baptism or if he was even a Jew. If he was a Jew and heard the message of John the baptizer, he should have obey the massage and been baptized. He would have then had his sins forgiven by God for obedience to John’s message and prepared for the coming of the Messiah. He would not have been subjected to the eternal gospel for Christ was not yet dead and raised for the dead.
BChristianK says:
I see, so a trip out to see John was just optional, and Jesus’ ministry of baptism was just for kicks and giggles right?
JustAChristian responds:
Your statement is not worthy of consideration.
BChristianK says:
Your theology has some holes here my friend.
JustAChristian responds:
Stay with me, friend, there is more to come...we’ll see if there are any real holes.
BChristianK says:
I thought Noah was saved by faith.
JustAChristian responds:
Wasn’t his works shown to be works of faith? Are you limiting the acts of faith? Have you never read James on the subject of faith? May I commend to you James 2:24?
BChristianK says:
Now, I agree totally that his faith was an active faith that didn’t just sit there when God told him to build an ark, but rather motivated him toward obedience to God’s commands, but he didn’t become heir of the righteousness that comes by faith because he built a boat, it was because he was faithful and building a boat just happened to be the way he expressed that.
JustAChristian responds:
Amazing, we see it in the same way!
BChristianK says:
Abraham was saved not by worshiping at his families alter, but by faith.
JustAChristian responds:
Wasn’t his works of faith? Are you limiting the acts of faith? Have you never read James on the subject of faith? May I commend to you again James 2:24?
BChristianK says:
It was an issue with the thief on the cross, John was baptizing with a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins, remember?
JustAChristian responds:
If he was a Jew it is given that he would have been in proximity of hearing and obeying the preaching of John. However Christ was not yet dead and risen for the dead and His covenant was not validated by the shedding of blood in His death.
BChristianK says:
Actually it was said that Israel was baptized into Moses (1 Cor 10:2), that Noah was a figure of baptism (1 Peter 3:20) which tells us that getting wet doesn’t save one person (a point you have yet to address) but what does save is the pledge of a good consciences toward God. And that Abraham was justified by faith alone apart from works (no baptism) and then Paul says we are saved by the faith of Abraham (Romans 4:16). So these figures’ salvific experiences aren’t as irrelevant to ours as you may be insinuating.
JustAChristian responds:
1. Baptized into Moses...while the cloud overshadowed the multitude in the wilderness. Another definition of baptism is “to be overwhelmed� which happened with the cloud.
2. Noah and his family were saved in the ark and the water separated them from the darkness of the sinful world. The like figure is found, Peter says, in our baptism. It separates us from sins in obedience of faith.
3. Getting “wet with water� will not save, but getting baptized for the remission of sin is obedient faith and will affect salvation from sins.
4. “...a good conscience toward God...� This is one’s answering the commandment to enter Christ by baptism (Gal. 3:26-27; cf. Rom. 6:4, 17). “Through the resurrection of Jesus Chris.� This salvation through obedience is made sure by the resurrection of Jesus from the dead (1 Cor. 15:17-18).
5. Abraham’s faith was an obedient faith. He did what God told him to do. God accepted his faith and extended to him grace. It is the same for us. When we obey God extends grace (Eph. 2:8-9).
BChristianK says:
Once again, in the time period you claim no such baptism was needed for the remission of sins, John came preaching a baptism for the remission of sins.
JustAChristian responds:
I believe I have clarified my position on this point, but if you feel I am not clear on it let me know.
BChristianK says:
Big theological oops here!
JustAChristian responds:
Not worthy of a statement!
BChristianK says:
Right, do you mind explaining to me how this negates anything I have said up to now?
JustAChristian responds:
It is not necessarily extended to negate anything you have said up to now, but to solidify my position. I preach and baptize because it is “in word� and in the name of the Lord Jesus.
BChristianK says:
Ok. I agree to that.
JAC's statement
quote:
I have no right to do an “afterthought� but only that which is authorized.
BChristianK says:
Agreed.
BChristianK says:
Ah, shouldn’t we include the other stuff in those passages too instead taking God’s word out of context?
JustAChristian responds:
“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.� (Acts 2:38 AV)
� Peter preached, they questioned “What shall we do?�
� “Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins.�
� As a result of being obedient to the command of the apostle, “...and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit...�
“Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?� (Acts 10:47 AV)
â—? Peter preached the gospel received from Christ (Matthew 28:18-20).
â—? While he was preaching the Holy Spirit came in a baptismal form over the household of Cornelius like it did on Pentecost over the apostles (Acts 11:15), not to save them but as a sign to Peter and his accompaniment from Joppa.
â—? Peter understood the baptismal measure of the Holy Spirit over the household of Cornelius to mean that what he was doing in being there and preaching was the will of God.
â—? Baptism was administered to those that believed.
BchristianK says:
And..
I’d like for you to point out for me if they received the spirit before or after they were baptized..
JustAChristian responds:
They received the baptismal measure over the household as a sign to the apostle and his company and the after baptism in water for the remission of sins an indwelling measure of the Spirit as a indication of salvation (Romans 8:9; Galatians 4:6; 1 Peter 1:11).
BChristianK says:
Hmmm? Interestingly, Peter often spoke of Repentance, Acts 3:19, Acts 8:22 ( and this to Simon who had already been baptized by Phillip), Paul tells the folks at the Aereopogus to repent (no baptism mentioned), Paul again before Agrippa, speaks of repentance (no call to baptism here either).
JustAChristian responds:
A mathematical axiom helps us to understand this better. “The whole of anything is the sum of its parts.� When you add up all the parts you see the whole. There is also a “figure of speech� called a “synecdoche.� The synecdoche is the exchange of one idea for an associated idea. While metonymy is an exchange between two related nouns, the synecdoche is an exchange made between two associated ideas. The synecdoche is a figure of speech where a part is put for a whole, and where a whole is put for a part. It involves putting a singular for a plural and a plural for a singular. The Bible abounds with this figure of speech. Jesus used this figure of speech when he taught the disciples to pray “...give us this day our daily bread...� Bread is a “synecdoche� which stand for all the physical needs one needs. Believe in the verse Acts 16:31 is a singular verb placed for a plural and as such it stands for the whole of that which is needed in order to be obedient. It includes, faith in Christ as God’s Son, repentance of sins, confession of Christ publically, and baptism for the remission of sins. Understanding the axiom that the whole of anything consist of the sums of its parts and the figure of speech “synecdoche� will help you to see that each picture of conversion does not necessarily have to express every need unto salvation each time.
BChristianK says:
I don’t think we have yet to agree, the Baptists (not all of them by the way) have erroneously assigned baptism into a diminutive role. I have already spoken of that. There are many Baptists who believe as I do that the way a person publicly professes Christ is through baptism. I don’t find it necessary to recount for Baptist doctrine, we should be looking to God’s word. A medical reason that a person cannot be immersion baptized would be a stoma from chemotherapy. Any water entry into this could complicate the persons health and I have heard of cases where it was fatal.
JustAChristian responds:
Are you saying that you there is no medically practical way to prevent the water from entering the stoma? What about a fully zipped body bag with an sealed air supply? Where there is a will there is a way!
BChristianK says:
So you think getting wet places one in Christ.
JustAChristian responds:
You make that statement based on one of two reasons. Either you are totally ignorant of the facts that I have presented or so prejudicial that you will not accept them. No where have I ever indicated that I believe just getting wet places one in Christ. Entrance comes when we are buried in like manner as the actual burial of Christ in the tomb (Romans 6:4; Romans 6:17-18)
BChristianK says:
Except, as I have pointed out, Epesians 1:13, just 10 verses later) Paul says that belief was sufficient for this.
JustAChristian responds:
Another synecdoche.
BChristianK says:
I’d agree that they weren’t “added to their number�, until they were baptized.
JustAChristian responds:
Good!
BChristianK says:
That’s not such an easy line to draw my friend. Was Cornelius hell bound before he was baptized (Acts 10)?
JustAChristian responds:
If a missionary shares information on God being our Creator with a unbeliever but does not have time during his sermon to where he talks about Christ and one of his listeners falls dead, will the person have eternal life in light of John 8:24 and Acts 4:12? What about repentance? What about confession? What about baptism? Has the gospel been obeyed? I would invite you to take a moment and study 2nd Thess. 1:8 and Rom. 2:8.
BChristianK says:
What about Lydia, did she have a one way ticket straight to hell before she was baptized? (Acts 16:14).
JustAChristian responds:
If I understand the purpose of the gospel of Jesus Christ, it is in order that mankind may know the good news of salvation through Jesus Christ the Messiah that was not before offered by the Law of Moses. Failure to obey this “power of God unto salvation� places one in jeopardy of condemnation. There will be no sins in heaven (Rev. 21:8). Do you not sense the need to preach the pure unadulterated gospel of Christ?
BChristianK says:
The scriptures pronounce Cornelius as righteous and God fearing, the word says Lydia was “a worshiper of God.� Shall we conclude that they were on their way to hell while fearing God and worshiping Him?
JustAChristian responds:
So was Paul who tells of his ignorance and unbelief (1 Tim. 1:13). He was a zealous and devoted Jew (Acts 26:5; Phil 3:5). The manner in which he worshiped was not according to the covenant then in effect. The law had changed. Cornelius was a devoted believer in God as was Lydia, but they did not know the gospel. They were in their sins. Sins separate us from God (Isaiah 59:1-2). When they came to know the gospel and became obedient to its commands from Christ, they were saved from their sins and in harmony with God. Morality has never been the means to salvation. It is good to be moral, but it will not affect forgiveness of sins (Matthew 13:23).
BChristianK says:
No arguments. Personally, after my heart had turned and I had repented, I requested to be baptized during the very next service (4 days later to be exact).
JustAChristian responds:
Can you imagine Peter or Paul allowing such an behavior What about the Ethiopian nobleman (Acts 8). Don’t you sense he believe in the immediate importance of baptism?
BChristianK says:
He did. Have you heard their theological arguments for why they are not baptized?
JustAChristian responds:
Generally people are not baptized because of the way they have been taught. There are those who have not been taught. There are also those who will never be taught. God is a righteous judge on each situation and will judge righteously. Because you and I know what the Bible says on baptism we are without excuse to fail to obey it.
BChristianK says:
It does, when properly interpreted, but lets accept a measure of humility my friend, just because we subscribe to it doesn’t make it “rightly divided.�
JustAChristian responds:
Sorry, but I don’t follow you on this statement.
BChristianK says:
This argument may bite you back. We’ll see if it does.
JustAChristian responds:
We’ll see.
BChristianK says:
Right, and guess what? The organization you belong to is one of those 1,500 denominations or organizations teaching different doctrines….
JustAChristian responds:
“Prove all things...� 1 Thess. 5:21
BChristianK says:
Oh, but wait, your gonna tell me in your next post that your church is the only faithful church, huh?
JustAChristian responds:
I would rather not be debating churches at this time. Do you know what the gospel says on the matter of salvation? We know mutually that there are only Christians in the Lord’s church, don’t we? We need to be sure that we are worshiping “in spirit and in truth� (John 4:24) or it is vein worship (Mark 7:7). Can you give me the least bit of hint by verse that Christ will accept division of any sort?
BChristianK says:
I don’t know, why do you call Him Lord, Lord and yet do not do the things he says. Unless of course you have surpassed Paul who claimed only to be the chief of sinners and are about to tell us that you are perfect, as the Father is perfect (Matthew 5:48).
JustAChristian responds:
No, I am not perfect is any stretch of the imagination. I do say that I do not wish to compromise the scriptures, properly interpreted, and seek to do the will of the Father in Heaven. Find me doing otherwise and I am willing to change.
BChristianK says:
You talk about it like it is a ticket to a movie. Perhaps it is a bit more thoughtful than that…
JustAChristian responds:
Sorry for any grammatical errors .
BChristianK says:
Right, now of all of the well informed interpretations of this passage, tell me how you are absolutely sure your interpretation (that the water was baptism) is correct.
If you don’t mind, start with a Greek exegesis of the passage and show me how we must all logically conclude that water meant baptism here.
JustAChristian responds:
From Robertson Word Pictures (RWP) we read: {Of water and the Spirit} (ex udatos kai pneumatos). Nicodemus had failed utterly to grasp the idea of the spiritual birth as essential to entrance into the Kingdom of God. He knew only Jews as members of that kingdom, the political kingdom of Pharisaic hope which was to make all the world Jewish (Pharisaic) under the King Messiah. Why does Jesus add ex udatos here? In verse 3 we have "anwqen" (from above) which is repeated in verse#7, while in verse 8 we have only ek tou pneumatos (of the Spirit) in the best manuscripts. Many theories exist. One view makes baptism, referred to by ex udatoj (coming up out of water), essential to the birth of the Spirit, as the means of obtaining the new birth of the Spirit. If so, why is water mentioned only once in the three demands of Jesus(vv. 3,5,7)? Calvin makes water and Spirit refer to the one act (the cleansing work of the Spirit). Some insist on the language in verse 6 as meaning the birth of the flesh coming in a sac of water in contrast to the birth of the Spirit. One wonders after all what was the precise purpose of Jesus with Nicodemus, the Pharisaic ceremonialist, who had failed to grasp the idea of spiritual birth which is a commonplace to us. By using water (the symbol before the thing signified) first and adding Spirit, he may have hoped to turn the mind of Nicodemus away from mere physical birth and, by pointing to the baptism of John on confession of sin which the Pharisees had rejected, to turn his attention to the birth from above by the Spirit. That is to say the mention of "water" here may have been for the purpose of helping Nicodemus without laying down a fundamental principle of salvation as being by means of baptism. Here Jesus uses eiselqein (enter) instead of idein (see) of verse 3, but with the same essential idea (participation in the kingdom).
Now I believe of course that water can only be referring to water baptism. In the same chapter we read, “After these things came Jesus and his disciples inot the land of Judea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. “After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized� (John 3:22-23 AV). So water and baptism are firmly linked in this chapter. I will treat objections to this passage interpreted as talking of water baptism later. But it is obvious that Jesus is talking of a new birth. This new birth consists of water and a work of the Holy Spirit. The Bible reveals the Holy Spirit works in conviction, conversion and sanctification through the word of God. In Ephesians 6:17 it says, “And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.� Through the word of God the Spirit brings forth faith (Romans 10:17), and repentance (Acts 2:38), and he commands us to go into the waters of baptism for the remissions of sins. That’s the Spirit’s part in salvation. The water plays it’s part, for sins are washed away in baptism as is shown in Acts 22:16. Simply saying, the Spirit’s part in the new birth is truth and what it produces. The water’s part is baptism.
BChristianK says:
The Ethiopian was baptized as a profession of his faith, correct.
JustAChristian responds:
What does the scriptures say? Does it say “as a profession of his faith?� In context with the balance of the New Testament on baptism, can you find any statement “as a profession of his faith with respect to baptism. I believe the eunuch was baptized to wash away his sins and in order to obey the provisions of the new birth. Within the course of Philip preaching “Jesus� he no doubt speaks of baptism prompting the eunuch to quiz on the subject. Faith comes by hearing... (Romans 10:17). He heard like those on Pentecost the essentiality of baptism and was prompted by the presence of the water to answer the command and be added to the kingdom of God.
BChristianK says:
No, I see it as a public demonstration of repentance, faith and a public profession of Christ. I do see it as absolutely necessary and not unconnected to one’s salvific experience. I don’t say, as do you, that one cannot be saved until they are baptized. And I certainly don’t say, as I fear you will eventually say, that one is not saved unless they are baptized in your church.
JustAChristian responds:
I hope you will continue to study the subject and accept its essentiality unto salvation (Mark 16:16). I have no church. I believe I am a member of the church of Jesus Christ.
BChristianK says:
Agreed.
JustAChristian responds:
Then why do you question it scriptural usage? (1 Peter 3:21).
BChristianK says:
Right, God accepts us on the basis of Christ’s blood, not the baptismal waters.
JustAChristian responds:
In your understanding, how does on obtain the cleansing blood of Christ? Can you sustain your understanding by scripture?
BChristianK says:
Do you really need me to show you why Mark 16:16 is not a great place to hang your theological hat?
JustAChristian responds:
It is your duty to show me that water baptism for the remission of sins is not essential or effective in order to be saved. Thus far you have done a miserable labor in doing so.
BchristianK says:
Have you ever considered that disciples of Christ should only be called “Christians�?
You mean have I considered that those who learn from Christ should be called Christians?
JustAChristian responds:
Yes
BChristianK says:
Sure.
Now, as I said about acts 10, it is clear that the household of Cornelius received Holy Spirit before they were baptized. In fact, it was the very reception of Holy Spirit that brought about their baptism.
This doesn’t follow your formula.
Of:
1. Repent
2. Baptism
3. Receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Which is clearly evident that Peter wasn’t espousing a formula in Acts 2:38.
Yes, Cornelius and his household. Acts 10, I thought that was clear. Ah, but you are probably going to try to pull the ol’ “that wasn’t an indwelling of the Holy Spirit.�
There are a whole mess of problems with such a crazy argument.
First, there is no other place in scripture that refers to Cornelius or his household having a separate encounter with the Holy Spirit. Second, Peter says,
JustAChristian responds:
You are correct. That wasn’t an indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The manifestation of the Spirit at that time was as a witness to the event before the Jews that God has accepted Gentiles to be apart of the kingdom of God through the cleansing blood of Christ in baptism. Thus, Peter commanded those that believed to be baptized. After baptism comes the indwelling (Acts 2:38).
BChristianK says:
Are you going to argue that Peter and the 12 didn’t have an indwelling experience with the Holy Spirit? If not, then it would be pretty silly to say that Cornelius didn’t by virtue of this event based on Peter’s words, wouldn’t it?
JustAChristian responds:
I don’t argue that point at all. I am merely saying that the Spirit coming over the household of Cornelius was not an indwelling. There are only two displays of the manifestation as explained by Peter. The first was on Pentecost and the second was on the household of Cornelius. Neither was for the purpose of indwelling as the “gift of the Holy Spirit� (Acts 2:38). From J. W. McGarvey we read, “After commanding the inquirers to repent and be immersed for the remission of sins, Peter adds the promise, "and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." The gift of the Holy Spirit should not be confounded with the Holy Spirit's gifts, nor with the fruits of the Spirit. The fruits of the Holy Spirit are religious traits of character, and they result from the gift of the Holy Spirit. The latter expression means, the Holy Spirit as a gift. It is analogous to the expression, "promise of the Holy Spirit" in#Ac 2:33, above, where Peter says, "having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has shed forth this which you now see and hear." The gifts of the Holy Spirit were various miraculous powers, intellectual and physical. These were conferred only upon a few individuals, while the gift of the Spirit is promised to all who repent and are immersed.�
BChristianK says:
No, it is absolutely necessary to read the word as it is written not as you add to it.
JustAChristian responds:
Sorry, I should have inserted a “not� between it and absolutely.
BChristianK says:
I don’t argue that they weren’t baptized, I am arguing that the passage shows the sufficiency of faith for salvation. In other words, salvation isn’t formulaic.
Good, now lets hope you don’t go footnoting Ephesians 1:13 anyway.
You just said you wouldn’t footnote it. Instead, you footnoted it with *�believe is all inclusive of faith, repentance, confession and baptism.� Actually, belief is just all inclusive of belief.
JustAChristian responds:
I didn’t say I was not going to comment on the verse, I said, I would agree that any “foot noting� that is not in harmony with the Word of God would be unscriptural.
BChristianK says:
Right ‘cause that’s always the formula for how salvation happens, unless of course you include the thief on the cross (you gotta deal with that whole John the Baptist and Jesus baptizing thing before you can explain this one away) and you still have yet to explain away the baptism of cornelius which was repentance from sin (even before Peter got there since he was told Cornelius was righteous and God fearing), then comes the sealing of the Holy Spirit and then water baptism.
JustAChristian responds:
Events prior to the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ are matters of the Law of Moses (Luke 16:16) “...After that the kingdom of God is preached and every man presseth into it.� After Christ’s resurrection and ascension to receive His Kingdom He had all power to commission and send his disciples into all the world with the eternal gospel of salvation. John’s baptism was a preparatory baptism for the remission of sin preparing a people for the coming of the Messiah (Mark 1:4). John 4:2 tells us that Jesus did not baptize but commissioned his disciples to do so. Again, McGarvey says, “Jesus, as divine Lawgiver, instituted baptism, and his disciples administered it. We nowhere hear of the disciples of John administering baptism. In fact, the Baptist, like the disciples of Jesus, baptized under a divine commission, and could not delegate the power to others. It was the office of Jesus to commission others to this work, not to perform it himself. Had he done so, those baptized by him might have foolishly claimed for themselves some peculiar honor by reason thereof (#1Co 1:14,15). Jesus was the spiritual baptizer, in which baptism the efficacy lies in the administrant; but water baptism, the efficacy of which lies rather in the spirit of the one baptized than in the virtues of the administrant, Jesus left to his disciples.�
Cornelius was told to send to Joppa to one Simon “...he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do; (Acts 10:6). Peter came and commanded him and his household that believed they must be baptized. You need to read Acts 10:22 on what Peter perceived of Cornelius. Nowhere does he say that Cornelius was righteous. Water baptism for the remission of sins will effect the gift of the Holy Spirit as an indwelling and sealing.
BChristianK says:
You see, your church has to explain away all these scriptures because it is founded on it being the only true church because it is the only church that does these things in the right order. The problem with this is that you can’t prove the order consistently throughout the scripture. All the elements are important: repentance, confession of faith, baptism, etc… But they are not formulaic.
JustAChristian responds:
To be consistent they must come in order. Hearing prompts faith (Romans 10:17). Repentance is essential and would be committed before one would be prompted to confess Christ as God’s Son. Philip said to the eunuch, “If you believe you can be baptized� and Jesus commissioned saying “...he that believes and is baptized� prompting us to accept that confession comes before baptism. Call it a formula if you wish. I see it as a God’s plan for salvation.
BChristianK says:
Now finally, in response to my question about the guy who got hit by a bus on his way into the church to be baptized, you said:
No idea what 2 Tim 2:1 has to do with hades..
JustAChristian responds:
I do not see any connection with 2 Tim 2:1 and the Hadean world. Perhaps you do not understand the Hadean world.
McGarvey says and I concur, “Hades (Greek), or Sheol (Hebrew), was the name given to the abode of the dead between death and the resurrection. In it the souls of the wicked are in torment, and those of the righteous enjoy a paradise(#Lu 23:43). The joys of Paradise were conceived of as those of a feast, and the expression "Abraham's bosom" is taken from the custom of reclining on couches at feasts. As a guest leaned upon his left arm, his neighbor on his left might easily lean upon his bosom. Such a position of respect to the master of the house was one of special honor, and indicated great intimacy(#Joh 1:18 13:23). What higher honor or joy could the Jew conceive of than such a condition of intimacy and fellowship with Abraham, the great founder of their race? (#Mt 8:11).�
BChristianK says:
1 Peter 4:5, the quick and the dead have already been evangelized.
JustAChristian responds:
I believe Peter is speaking of some who did receive the gospel, have since died and will be judged in the same manner as those who are alive at the coming of Christ.
BChristianK says:
I surely have, and will continue to do so. I have repented, believed, confessed, been baptized by immersion.
Oh, but you are about to tell me that it didn’t happen in your church by one of your pastors so it didn’t take, right?
I certainly hope not. That would tell me that you adhere to the cultic Boston Church of Christ movement which has more theological problems than one can count on one hand. What is more, they make the pretentious claim that they are the only true church. Honestly, that is really the most braggadocios, ignorant claim ever uttered. We should talk about their interpretation of Matthew 28:19 sometime, it is hilarious for its lack of understanding of the scripture.
JustAChristian responds:
It is apparent that regardless what I may reply to you that you have a preconceived notion that whatever I have to say is not going to be considered. If you wish to communicate with an open mind then I am willing to proceed....in the mean time, where does the Bible said if one will accept the Lord Jesus as their personal savior then they will be saved?
BChristianK says:
Grace and Peace
P.s, Your really gonna have to explain this one to me…
What do you know about “Fire Baptism?� Fire baptism is the eternal baptism of flames of Hell Fire and no one should seek that.
JustAChristian responds:
I believe it deals with the second death of Revelation 20:14. As John said, “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: (Matthew 3:11 AV). John is speaking of Jesus baptizing of some those that heard John with the baptism of fire which would come in disobedience to the gospel. Not all would be baptized as not all would be baptized with the Holy Spirit.
BChristianK says:
So you think that Peter and the 12 on Pentecost as well as the household of Cornelius were baptized into the flames of Hell fire?
JustAChristian responds:
No, that is not my thinking.
BChristianK says:
I suppose you think that Acts 2:39 means that the promise of HELLFIRE is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord will call to Himself.
JustAChristian responds:
The baptism of fire is reserved for the disobedient alone.
JustAChristian :angel:
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JustAChristian
New member
The Holy Spirit In Conversion...
The Holy Spirit In Conversion...
The Bible teaches that God dwells in his people. "And what agreement hath a temple of God with idols? for we are a temple of the living God; even as God said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people" (2 Cor. 6:16). This says that not only does God dwell in us, it is also true that he walks in us. It is also clearly taught that Christ dwells in Christians. "That Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; to the end that ye, being rooted and grounded in love" (Eph. 3:17). The same language is used to teach us that the Holy Spirit dwells in Christians. In Gal. 3:2, Paul asks the Galatians: "Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" Rom. 8:9 says, "But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Thus the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit dwells in Christians and this is repeatedly taught. The same Greek words are used of the three. The manner in which the Holy Spirit dwells in Christians is not explained in the scriptures. George Washington said, "United we stand, divided we fall." As long as the American people are true to the words, the spirit of George Washington will live in them. When our children follow our principles it is to that extent that we are dwelling in our children. Christ dwells in us to the extent that we follow the teaching of Christ (Gal. 2:20). The Holy Spirit dwells in us to the extent that we follow the teachings of the Spirit (Eph. 5:17,18; Col. 3:16). Most of us can understand how Christ can dwell in us by faith through the word but when it comes to the Holy Spirit people get some weird ideas. As God and Christ dwell in us through the word, so the Holy Spirit dwells in us through his word.
There is a difference between what the Holy Spirit does to us, and what he does in behalf of, or for us. We read, for example, that "The Spirit also helpeth our infirmity: for we know not how to pray as we ought; but the Spirit himself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered; and he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is in the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God" (Rom. 8:26,27). The groaning here is the burdened soul who, not knowing in his distress what to pray for, can only groan in spirit, and say, "Lord, Lord" and the Holy Spirit picks up these groanings and interprets them to the Father in terms of the soul's need. We note that the intercession which the Spirit does is an operation for us before the throne of grace, and not upon us. It is, of course, true, that people are prepared through circumstances, to listen to the gospel. This may be because of an accident, the death of a loved one, the realization of approaching death and other things of life. But no one will know what the will of God unto salvation is until he hears the word of God.
In Matt. 12:31,32 we read about blaspheming the Holy Spirit; Heb. 6:4-6 speaks of despising the Holy Spirit; Acts 5:3 speaks of lying to the Holy Spirit; Acts 7:51 speaks of resisting the Holy Spirit; 1 Cor. 6:19,20; 1 Cor. 3:16,17 speaks of defiling the temple of the body and the church which is against the Holy Spirit; 1 Thess. 5:19 speaks of quenching the Holy Spirit; and, Eph. 4:30 speaks of grieving the Holy Spirit. When we fail to heed the message of the Holy Spirit through the word we are resisting the Holy Spirit and if we persist in this action we will be lost eternally.
Let us submit to the will of the Lord and fill our life with the fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, self-control (Gal. 5:22,23). If we thus sow to the Spirit we shall of the Spirit reap eternal life (Gal. 6:8).
JustAChristian
The Holy Spirit In Conversion...
The Bible teaches that God dwells in his people. "And what agreement hath a temple of God with idols? for we are a temple of the living God; even as God said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people" (2 Cor. 6:16). This says that not only does God dwell in us, it is also true that he walks in us. It is also clearly taught that Christ dwells in Christians. "That Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; to the end that ye, being rooted and grounded in love" (Eph. 3:17). The same language is used to teach us that the Holy Spirit dwells in Christians. In Gal. 3:2, Paul asks the Galatians: "Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" Rom. 8:9 says, "But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Thus the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit dwells in Christians and this is repeatedly taught. The same Greek words are used of the three. The manner in which the Holy Spirit dwells in Christians is not explained in the scriptures. George Washington said, "United we stand, divided we fall." As long as the American people are true to the words, the spirit of George Washington will live in them. When our children follow our principles it is to that extent that we are dwelling in our children. Christ dwells in us to the extent that we follow the teaching of Christ (Gal. 2:20). The Holy Spirit dwells in us to the extent that we follow the teachings of the Spirit (Eph. 5:17,18; Col. 3:16). Most of us can understand how Christ can dwell in us by faith through the word but when it comes to the Holy Spirit people get some weird ideas. As God and Christ dwell in us through the word, so the Holy Spirit dwells in us through his word.
There is a difference between what the Holy Spirit does to us, and what he does in behalf of, or for us. We read, for example, that "The Spirit also helpeth our infirmity: for we know not how to pray as we ought; but the Spirit himself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered; and he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is in the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God" (Rom. 8:26,27). The groaning here is the burdened soul who, not knowing in his distress what to pray for, can only groan in spirit, and say, "Lord, Lord" and the Holy Spirit picks up these groanings and interprets them to the Father in terms of the soul's need. We note that the intercession which the Spirit does is an operation for us before the throne of grace, and not upon us. It is, of course, true, that people are prepared through circumstances, to listen to the gospel. This may be because of an accident, the death of a loved one, the realization of approaching death and other things of life. But no one will know what the will of God unto salvation is until he hears the word of God.
In Matt. 12:31,32 we read about blaspheming the Holy Spirit; Heb. 6:4-6 speaks of despising the Holy Spirit; Acts 5:3 speaks of lying to the Holy Spirit; Acts 7:51 speaks of resisting the Holy Spirit; 1 Cor. 6:19,20; 1 Cor. 3:16,17 speaks of defiling the temple of the body and the church which is against the Holy Spirit; 1 Thess. 5:19 speaks of quenching the Holy Spirit; and, Eph. 4:30 speaks of grieving the Holy Spirit. When we fail to heed the message of the Holy Spirit through the word we are resisting the Holy Spirit and if we persist in this action we will be lost eternally.
Let us submit to the will of the Lord and fill our life with the fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, self-control (Gal. 5:22,23). If we thus sow to the Spirit we shall of the Spirit reap eternal life (Gal. 6:8).
JustAChristian
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Aimiel
Well-known member
There is also groaning that intercessors do, which is to pray for those they know nothing about. It occurs when you pray under the guidance of The Holy Spirit. He often reveals the burden, and sometimes even the circumstances that one is praying for. Mainly, knowing the deep heart-felt burden that The Lord has for His children, wherever they might be is reassurace, no matter how painful or how long the burden lasts, there is always the release, which comes when The Holy Spirit gives release, "Enough," He says. And you know that The Victory belongs to Him, and that you had a part in it, along with Him.
JustAChristian
New member
The Holy Spirit's Work In Prayer
The Holy Spirit's Work In Prayer
There is a difference between what the Holy Spirit does to us, and what he does in behalf of, or for us. We read, for example, that "The Spirit also helpeth our infirmity: for we know not how to pray as we ought; but the Spirit himself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered; and he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is in the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God" (Rom. 8:26,27). The groaning here is the burdened soul who, not knowing in his distress what to pray for, can only groan in spirit, and say, "Lord, Lord" and the Holy Spirit picks up these groanings and interprets them to the Father in terms of the soul's need. We note that the intercession which the Spirit does is an operation for us before the throne of grace, and not upon us.
Let us submit to the will of the Lord and fill our life with the fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, self-control (Gal. 5:22,23). If we thus sow to the Spirit we shall of the Spirit reap eternal life (Gal. 6:8).
JustAChristian
The Holy Spirit's Work In Prayer
There is a difference between what the Holy Spirit does to us, and what he does in behalf of, or for us. We read, for example, that "The Spirit also helpeth our infirmity: for we know not how to pray as we ought; but the Spirit himself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered; and he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is in the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God" (Rom. 8:26,27). The groaning here is the burdened soul who, not knowing in his distress what to pray for, can only groan in spirit, and say, "Lord, Lord" and the Holy Spirit picks up these groanings and interprets them to the Father in terms of the soul's need. We note that the intercession which the Spirit does is an operation for us before the throne of grace, and not upon us.
Let us submit to the will of the Lord and fill our life with the fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, meekness, self-control (Gal. 5:22,23). If we thus sow to the Spirit we shall of the Spirit reap eternal life (Gal. 6:8).
JustAChristian
JustAChristian
New member
Some people bold, bolf, and some italicize . Some even color their text. Truth comes in many styles but unless it is real TRUTH we know "it's not worth a hill of beans." We should be careful what we always post because we are subject to answer for it.
JustAChristian :angel:
JustAChristian
New member
God Would Have All Men To Be Saved...
God Would Have All Men To Be Saved...
With the Reformation came the challenge to promote the need to study and understand Holy Writ. God had provided the perfect tool for life and mankind needed that tool. Bibles and Testaments of all sizes began to be seen and sold in the bookstores and libraries in every “Christian� country. Daily, man was coming to the knowledge of the Almighty and His Son Jesus Christ in such a manner not seen since the earliest of times. Till this present time, thousands of books and article have been written expressing the nature and manner of God and of His salvation for all to possess (1 Timothy 2:4). Yet, even with the surmounting mounds of information and clarification, there is that element that will not come to accept the true meaning of God’s word. They will not humble themselves to accept anything beyond their closed presumptions. They will not go against interpretations of those whom they esteem and appreciate. Even with reasonable effort on the part of others to present the truth that can not be denied, they will not abase themselves and give in. The Bible is correct to say they will never come to a correct and proper understanding, and have “become dull of hearing�(Hebrews 5:11). Even these Paul loved and with concern for their souls was “In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; (2 Timothy 2:25 AV) With a concern so dedicated so as to desire God to intervene in some miraculous manner to cause man to understand that they might be saved. This is how important the scriptures are to knowing.
Under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Paul once wrote Timothy saying, “...from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God might be perfect; thoroughly furnished unto every good work� (2 Timothy 3:15-17 AV). With this inspired message Timothy could be assured of benefits of knowing the scriptures and we can also know today if we will but humble ourselves and esteem the Bible far above any other book in the world, learn it and use it correctly in our lives. To this extent may we ever be grateful. God would have all men to be saved.
JustAChristian
God Would Have All Men To Be Saved...
With the Reformation came the challenge to promote the need to study and understand Holy Writ. God had provided the perfect tool for life and mankind needed that tool. Bibles and Testaments of all sizes began to be seen and sold in the bookstores and libraries in every “Christian� country. Daily, man was coming to the knowledge of the Almighty and His Son Jesus Christ in such a manner not seen since the earliest of times. Till this present time, thousands of books and article have been written expressing the nature and manner of God and of His salvation for all to possess (1 Timothy 2:4). Yet, even with the surmounting mounds of information and clarification, there is that element that will not come to accept the true meaning of God’s word. They will not humble themselves to accept anything beyond their closed presumptions. They will not go against interpretations of those whom they esteem and appreciate. Even with reasonable effort on the part of others to present the truth that can not be denied, they will not abase themselves and give in. The Bible is correct to say they will never come to a correct and proper understanding, and have “become dull of hearing�(Hebrews 5:11). Even these Paul loved and with concern for their souls was “In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; (2 Timothy 2:25 AV) With a concern so dedicated so as to desire God to intervene in some miraculous manner to cause man to understand that they might be saved. This is how important the scriptures are to knowing.
Under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Paul once wrote Timothy saying, “...from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God might be perfect; thoroughly furnished unto every good work� (2 Timothy 3:15-17 AV). With this inspired message Timothy could be assured of benefits of knowing the scriptures and we can also know today if we will but humble ourselves and esteem the Bible far above any other book in the world, learn it and use it correctly in our lives. To this extent may we ever be grateful. God would have all men to be saved.
JustAChristian
*cough*
If Peter wanted those who were already filled with the Spirit to be baptized, how were those people filled with the Spirit, unless they were already saved? Salvation came before baptism, which shows that it comes without baptism...
If Peter wanted those who were already filled with the Spirit to be baptized, how were those people filled with the Spirit, unless they were already saved? Salvation came before baptism, which shows that it comes without baptism...
JustAChristian
New member
Filled With The Spirit?
Filled With The Spirit?
lighthouse,
Tell us who were already filled with the Spirit that Peter wanted to be baptized. You'd have to also have to tell us how they were filled with the Spirit since you are assigning them to that status. To whom do you find salvation coming before baptism?
JustAChristian :angel:
Filled With The Spirit?
lighthouse,
Tell us who were already filled with the Spirit that Peter wanted to be baptized. You'd have to also have to tell us how they were filled with the Spirit since you are assigning them to that status. To whom do you find salvation coming before baptism?
JustAChristian :angel:
JustAChristian
New member
A Short Study On The Holy Spirit...
A Short Study On The Holy Spirit...
When we study the baptism with the Holy Spirit in its entirety, we see that the Bible only records two occasions when there was a baptism of the Holy Ghost or Spirit. The first is when the apostles were baptized of the Holy Ghost on the first Pentecost after the resurrection of Jesus Christ (Acts 2:1-4). The second occasion was as Peter was preaching to the household of Cornelius (Acts 10:44-45). The Spirit descended upon this household as He did upon the apostles. In both cases it was not in order to save or cleanse of sins. There have been many manifestations of the Spirit in the New Testament, but none like these two events. The apostles were baptized in the Holy Ghost that they might be guided into all truth and be able to remember everything which Jesus taught them (John 14:26; 16:30). Cornelius and his family (household) were baptized in the Holy Ghost to demonstrate that the Gentiles had been accepted by God just the same as the Jews--through the Gospel--separate and apart from the Law of Moses (Acts 10:1-48: 11:1-18: 15:7-11).
Truly, you will notice that the apostles of Christ were guided into all truth, and we have this very same truth in the Bible, the Holy book of God. As it was demonstrated long age that Gentiles are accepted by God the same as Jews, we still have this same evidence in our Bible. Because of this, the work of the baptism of the Spirit was fulfilled, and there is no such baptism in these days. Paul wrote that there is "one baptism" (Eph. 4:5). , and that baptism is in water "in the name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Ghost unto the forgiveness of sins" (Acts 2:38; 8:36-38). That baptism must be preached to all nations unto the end of this present age (Mt. 28:19-20; Mk. 16:15,16; Eph 5:26; 1 Ptr. 3:20,21). All Christians have the Holy Spirit in them, being the temple of God , but they are not baptized in the Holy Spirit as the Apostles and Cornelius were. If you believe that you have been baptized in the Holy Ghost, lets for a moment consider that point. Were you also water baptized? If you were water baptized, is this not two baptisms? At a later time the apostle Paul says to the Ephesian church, a time long after the household of Cornelius was baptized, that there is "one baptism?" (Eph.4:5). The Ephesian church obeyed the one baptism and was added to the church just like the church at Jerusalem in the beginning (Acts 2:41; Rom 6:4-6,17,18; Eph, 4;22,24).
The three thousand souls at Jerusalem that were obedient to the gospel Peter preached never experienced Holy Ghost baptism, yet the Bible tells us, "...such as should be saved..." were being added to the church.(Acts. 2:47). How do you explain this? You can only explain it rationally by accepting that water baptism is commanded for all while Holy Ghost was not. By the Spirit’s intervention the apostles would be guided into all truth, as Jesus promised, and to the Gentiles would the gospel be preached..
Please note that spiritual gifts, and distribution of gifts is shown earlier in Acts 8:14-17 to be through the laying on of the apostle’s hands. Philip the evangelist, preaching to the Samaritans, could not impart the spiritual gifts to them. This could only be done by the apostles. Paul wanted to soon visit the Roman church as he was at Corinth, and told them in his letter to the church saying, “For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established" (Rom. 1:11). Why didn't the preacher who converted those Romans impart the needed spiritual gift. We reason that he was not an apostle, and thus could not do it.
We should be able to clearly see how the Holy Spirit functions. He does not cause anyone to react separate and apart from the word of God. We need to study for ourselves in order to "rightly divide the way of truth" (2 Tim. 2:15). Keep studying your Bible. It’s the perfect tool for happiness and eternal life (2 Timothy 3:16,17).
JustAChristian
A Short Study On The Holy Spirit...
When we study the baptism with the Holy Spirit in its entirety, we see that the Bible only records two occasions when there was a baptism of the Holy Ghost or Spirit. The first is when the apostles were baptized of the Holy Ghost on the first Pentecost after the resurrection of Jesus Christ (Acts 2:1-4). The second occasion was as Peter was preaching to the household of Cornelius (Acts 10:44-45). The Spirit descended upon this household as He did upon the apostles. In both cases it was not in order to save or cleanse of sins. There have been many manifestations of the Spirit in the New Testament, but none like these two events. The apostles were baptized in the Holy Ghost that they might be guided into all truth and be able to remember everything which Jesus taught them (John 14:26; 16:30). Cornelius and his family (household) were baptized in the Holy Ghost to demonstrate that the Gentiles had been accepted by God just the same as the Jews--through the Gospel--separate and apart from the Law of Moses (Acts 10:1-48: 11:1-18: 15:7-11).
Truly, you will notice that the apostles of Christ were guided into all truth, and we have this very same truth in the Bible, the Holy book of God. As it was demonstrated long age that Gentiles are accepted by God the same as Jews, we still have this same evidence in our Bible. Because of this, the work of the baptism of the Spirit was fulfilled, and there is no such baptism in these days. Paul wrote that there is "one baptism" (Eph. 4:5). , and that baptism is in water "in the name of the Father and the Son and of the Holy Ghost unto the forgiveness of sins" (Acts 2:38; 8:36-38). That baptism must be preached to all nations unto the end of this present age (Mt. 28:19-20; Mk. 16:15,16; Eph 5:26; 1 Ptr. 3:20,21). All Christians have the Holy Spirit in them, being the temple of God , but they are not baptized in the Holy Spirit as the Apostles and Cornelius were. If you believe that you have been baptized in the Holy Ghost, lets for a moment consider that point. Were you also water baptized? If you were water baptized, is this not two baptisms? At a later time the apostle Paul says to the Ephesian church, a time long after the household of Cornelius was baptized, that there is "one baptism?" (Eph.4:5). The Ephesian church obeyed the one baptism and was added to the church just like the church at Jerusalem in the beginning (Acts 2:41; Rom 6:4-6,17,18; Eph, 4;22,24).
The three thousand souls at Jerusalem that were obedient to the gospel Peter preached never experienced Holy Ghost baptism, yet the Bible tells us, "...such as should be saved..." were being added to the church.(Acts. 2:47). How do you explain this? You can only explain it rationally by accepting that water baptism is commanded for all while Holy Ghost was not. By the Spirit’s intervention the apostles would be guided into all truth, as Jesus promised, and to the Gentiles would the gospel be preached..
Please note that spiritual gifts, and distribution of gifts is shown earlier in Acts 8:14-17 to be through the laying on of the apostle’s hands. Philip the evangelist, preaching to the Samaritans, could not impart the spiritual gifts to them. This could only be done by the apostles. Paul wanted to soon visit the Roman church as he was at Corinth, and told them in his letter to the church saying, “For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established" (Rom. 1:11). Why didn't the preacher who converted those Romans impart the needed spiritual gift. We reason that he was not an apostle, and thus could not do it.
We should be able to clearly see how the Holy Spirit functions. He does not cause anyone to react separate and apart from the word of God. We need to study for ourselves in order to "rightly divide the way of truth" (2 Tim. 2:15). Keep studying your Bible. It’s the perfect tool for happiness and eternal life (2 Timothy 3:16,17).
JustAChristian
Aimiel
Well-known member
Inside Info from The Holy Spirit of The Lord!!!
Inside Info from The Holy Spirit of The Lord!!!
JustASpritFilledBeliever
Inside Info from The Holy Spirit of The Lord!!!
Not quite 'all truth,' as you have quipped, but that which The Lord chose to reveal to them. His Mystery will continue until He brings It to an end, as He has declared to His Servents, the Prophets.
Says you. The Word of God says differently. God doesn't give gifts that He then takes back, or changes His Mind about. Jesus said that The Father would give The Holy Spirit to them that ask for Him, not to them that say, "He's 'passed away,' " or, "That's not for today."
Yes, there is One Baptism, but being sprinkled, dunked or spritzed isn't it; The Baptism by Fire that he was speaking of is the same Presnece of God that is present when one gets convicted of sin, righteousness and judgement by The Holy Ghost, becomes convinced that Jesus is The Only Salvation by The Holy Ghost and enters into The Presence of The Lord, in the Holy of Holies, which is inside the heart of true believers, everywhere.
Yes, but memorization of truths is not the end. That is a step, just as believing for salvation is a step, and being filled with The Holy Spirit is a step. The goal is to be conformed to His Image and Likeness, and that doesn't come about by reading, memorizing or reciting dogma. It only comes to pass as we seek The Lord with all of our heart, and only those who endure unto the end shall ever achieve that goal.
He is 'with' them, but shall be 'in' them, if they will but invite Him in. He doesn't go where He's not invited.
Well, have you ever had an Apostle's hands laid upon you?
There were other Apostles mentioned in The Bible, other than the original twelve. You, at least, have to count Paul as the thirteenth.
God didn't say that His Mystery would be divulged to those who reason among themselves. That's spiritual incest. He wants us to come together with Him, and reason together with Him. He is Spirit. He is alive, forevermore. Jesus is seated at The Right Hand of The Father because He is done. His Work is finished, until His Bride stands up and does the job committed to her, that of evangelizing this earth. Once we've done that, putting all His Enemies under His Feet, He will come back for a bride without spot or wrinkle, or any such thing.
Why? Because you say so? Don't you realize that men lost the knowledge of God, slowly, over the centuries, after the fall. The Lord spoke, and Israel listened. They trembled, He spoke so loud. Then, they lost what light He had given. Then, His Son came, to demonstrate His Father's Love for us, and give us The Spark, The Gospel. We ignited The Fire that lights the world. Now, as that fire dies down, The Holy Ghost must re-kindle our love for The Lord into the burning passionate desire to see His Bride walk down that aisle with a yearning more strong than our desire for our next breath. When we get that hungry for a move of The Lord, He will answer our prayers, and move upon us like no other generation has ever dreamed of. We are the 'dead bones' that Ezekiel spoke of. We are the 'dead' that his prophecies will breathe new life back into. We are spiritual corpses, walking around on a dead mission among dead parishoners, listening to dead hymns and dry, dead sermons preached by zombie preachers. We will live, because The Lord told Ezekiel to speak The Words of Life to us, by faith. He did. He didn't even think that it would happen, but because he obeyed The Lord, it did (that's future perfect tense, by the way, prophets (such as myself) can use that tense, because The Lord has given us leave to.
No, but He does know how to get His Mission accomplished. He knows how to move upon people that believe that He can't do so, and cause them to rise up from their grave and call others to life, out of their graves, as well.
Not me, thanks, I'll go right along studying for The Lord; because I study to show myself approved of Him, not myself or others. I don't want to be ashamed of the way that I tried to please myself or others, I'd much rather please The Lord, and His Approval does not come by understanding or by study, only by seeking. He is Who we seek, not 'knowledge about Him.'
True, It is, but only if you're seeking to meet and to come to know It's Author. He said He will be found by those who seek Him with their whole hearts, and He hasn't been proven wrong yet, in one single instance. He isn't found in dead words about death or how He (or His Spirit) is 'passed away' or 'not for today,' but only in the faith inside the heart of those who love Him, those who believe (especially when it 'looks' like His Promises just aren't so) His Word, not those who find new and different ways to doubt It. :thumb:
JustASpritFilledBeliever
JustAChristian
New member
Re: Inside Info from The Holy Spirit of The Lord!!!
Re: Inside Info from The Holy Spirit of The Lord!!!
Aimiel,
You are confused with the work of the Holy Spirit. I wish you would pay more attention to what I post and search it out. You will find the work of the Spirit is through the word of God. He does not come over people today as in the 1st century. His work is completed in that realm. I am sending you another lesson. Please read it completely.
The most misunderstood person in the Bible, I believe, is the Holy Spirit. I want you to understand for sure that the Holy Spirit is a person. He is not an "it" or a "thing", He is a person of Deity, and is called the Holy Ghost in the King James Version (Mt. 3:11), and "Spirit" in the first letter to Timothy (1 Tim 4:1). We see him called "the Spirit of God" in (1 Cor 6:11). Likewise he is called the "Spirit of Christ" (Rom. 8:9). Each name depicts a characteristic at the time expressed, and should not be construed to be different Spirits. The American Standard and other translations almost exclusively use the term "Spirit" instead of "Ghost" which I am told is an old English term for guest, as a guest we would have at our homes. The Holy Ghost would then be a guest within us as we are or become the temple of the Holy Ghost ( 1 Cor. 6:19)
.
As a Spirit person, he has the ability to do things that a person, as we know it, can do. Among these is the ability to know, "...even so, the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God (1 Cor. 2:11). He can know because He has a mind, "And He that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit..."( Rom. 8:27). The Bible says that the Holy Spirit did things as He wished. He had the ability to dispense various gifts as He willed" (1 Cor 12: 4-11). He has the characteristic of love (Rom. 15:30). The Bible says that " the Spirit speaketh expressly. He spoke on one occasion to Philip the evangelist (Act 8:29).He bears witness. Jesus, on one occasion said that "...he shall testify of me" (Jn.15:26). He has the ability to intercede in prayer for us, for the Bible says, "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself (himself; the better translation), maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered" (Rom.26). Some hold that the Holy Spirit is but a force, but let me further assure you that He is not just a force, but a person that can be grieved (Eph 4:30). People try to deceive the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:30). He can be blasphemed (Mk 3:29), and He may be insulted (Heb. 10:29). These are things which a force cannot do or receive.
In the building up of the church in the first century, the work of the Holy Spirit was to lead the apostles and preachers of Christ to prevent them from going astray in their preaching and writing. The Bible says, "But when they deliver you up take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you (Mt. 10:19,20). The apostle John in his gospel relays what Jesus taught saying, "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself: but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come" (Jn. 16:13).
The Bible speaks of the “Baptism of the Holy Spirit,� and a lot of misunderstanding comes for a lack of proper study on this subject. John the Baptist, on an occasion addressed an audience saying "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire" (Mt. 3:11) We see in the Bible, that the Apostles on the first Pentecost after Christ's resurrection, (Acts 2:1-4), and the household of Cornelius (Acts 10:44-47) were the only ones to be baptized with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the agent in cleansing or salvation but the servant of God in effecting the work of God through the Word of God. Today, there is but one baptism, in water for the remission of sin for us to obey (Acts 2:38; 10: 47; Eph 4:4-5).
What do you know about “Fire Baptism?� One commenting of this subject says, ““Many learned commentators regard the expression "in fire" as a mere amplification of the spiritual baptism added to express the purging and purifying effects of that baptism, but the context forbids this, for, in Mt 3:10, casting the unfruitful trees into the fire represents the punishment of the wicked, and, in Mt 3:12 the burning of the chaff with fire does the same, and consequently the baptizing in fire of the intervening verse must, according to the force of the context have the same reference. True, the expression "he will baptize you in the Holy Spirit and with fire," does not separate the persons addressed into two parties, and, if the context is disregarded, might be understood as meaning that the same persons were to be baptized in both; yet the context must not be disregarded, and it clearly separates them.� (J.W. McGarvey).
Fire baptism is the eternal baptism of flames of Hell Fire and no one should seek that. It will be rendered at the Judgement of the Lord (2 Thess. 1:8-10). How did Christians manifest the Spirit? The Spirit was manifested many times in the scriptures, but only at the laying on of hands of the Apostles was He dispensed to the people (Acts 8:14-17; Acts 19:6) The Holy Spirit baptism is a wonderful subject but must be understood properly. Continue to seek the Lord, and have a great day.
JustAChristian :angel:
Re: Inside Info from The Holy Spirit of The Lord!!!
Aimiel,
You are confused with the work of the Holy Spirit. I wish you would pay more attention to what I post and search it out. You will find the work of the Spirit is through the word of God. He does not come over people today as in the 1st century. His work is completed in that realm. I am sending you another lesson. Please read it completely.
The most misunderstood person in the Bible, I believe, is the Holy Spirit. I want you to understand for sure that the Holy Spirit is a person. He is not an "it" or a "thing", He is a person of Deity, and is called the Holy Ghost in the King James Version (Mt. 3:11), and "Spirit" in the first letter to Timothy (1 Tim 4:1). We see him called "the Spirit of God" in (1 Cor 6:11). Likewise he is called the "Spirit of Christ" (Rom. 8:9). Each name depicts a characteristic at the time expressed, and should not be construed to be different Spirits. The American Standard and other translations almost exclusively use the term "Spirit" instead of "Ghost" which I am told is an old English term for guest, as a guest we would have at our homes. The Holy Ghost would then be a guest within us as we are or become the temple of the Holy Ghost ( 1 Cor. 6:19)
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As a Spirit person, he has the ability to do things that a person, as we know it, can do. Among these is the ability to know, "...even so, the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God (1 Cor. 2:11). He can know because He has a mind, "And He that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit..."( Rom. 8:27). The Bible says that the Holy Spirit did things as He wished. He had the ability to dispense various gifts as He willed" (1 Cor 12: 4-11). He has the characteristic of love (Rom. 15:30). The Bible says that " the Spirit speaketh expressly. He spoke on one occasion to Philip the evangelist (Act 8:29).He bears witness. Jesus, on one occasion said that "...he shall testify of me" (Jn.15:26). He has the ability to intercede in prayer for us, for the Bible says, "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself (himself; the better translation), maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered" (Rom.26). Some hold that the Holy Spirit is but a force, but let me further assure you that He is not just a force, but a person that can be grieved (Eph 4:30). People try to deceive the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:30). He can be blasphemed (Mk 3:29), and He may be insulted (Heb. 10:29). These are things which a force cannot do or receive.
In the building up of the church in the first century, the work of the Holy Spirit was to lead the apostles and preachers of Christ to prevent them from going astray in their preaching and writing. The Bible says, "But when they deliver you up take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you (Mt. 10:19,20). The apostle John in his gospel relays what Jesus taught saying, "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself: but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come" (Jn. 16:13).
The Bible speaks of the “Baptism of the Holy Spirit,� and a lot of misunderstanding comes for a lack of proper study on this subject. John the Baptist, on an occasion addressed an audience saying "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire" (Mt. 3:11) We see in the Bible, that the Apostles on the first Pentecost after Christ's resurrection, (Acts 2:1-4), and the household of Cornelius (Acts 10:44-47) were the only ones to be baptized with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the agent in cleansing or salvation but the servant of God in effecting the work of God through the Word of God. Today, there is but one baptism, in water for the remission of sin for us to obey (Acts 2:38; 10: 47; Eph 4:4-5).
What do you know about “Fire Baptism?� One commenting of this subject says, ““Many learned commentators regard the expression "in fire" as a mere amplification of the spiritual baptism added to express the purging and purifying effects of that baptism, but the context forbids this, for, in Mt 3:10, casting the unfruitful trees into the fire represents the punishment of the wicked, and, in Mt 3:12 the burning of the chaff with fire does the same, and consequently the baptizing in fire of the intervening verse must, according to the force of the context have the same reference. True, the expression "he will baptize you in the Holy Spirit and with fire," does not separate the persons addressed into two parties, and, if the context is disregarded, might be understood as meaning that the same persons were to be baptized in both; yet the context must not be disregarded, and it clearly separates them.� (J.W. McGarvey).
Fire baptism is the eternal baptism of flames of Hell Fire and no one should seek that. It will be rendered at the Judgement of the Lord (2 Thess. 1:8-10). How did Christians manifest the Spirit? The Spirit was manifested many times in the scriptures, but only at the laying on of hands of the Apostles was He dispensed to the people (Acts 8:14-17; Acts 19:6) The Holy Spirit baptism is a wonderful subject but must be understood properly. Continue to seek the Lord, and have a great day.
JustAChristian :angel:
Aimiel
Well-known member
Re: Re: Inside Info from The Holy Spirit of The Lord!!!
Re: Re: Inside Info from The Holy Spirit of The Lord!!!
Re: Re: Inside Info from The Holy Spirit of The Lord!!!
This from someone who will admit that he's never even met The Holy Spirit? Makes no sense.
Yup, I've met Him, and He has a home inside of me.
As Jesus said, He is 'with' those who believe, and comes to live 'within' those who invite Him to do so.
Who took away that 'ability' that you say He HAD? In your mind, is He only God of the past?
He does. He has spoken to me countless times, and, many times, to others, through me.
Precisely. It is His 'witness' that gives us a 'more sure word of prophecy,' as The Scripture says, than any eyewitness account of those who heard God's Voice when Jesus was baptized, saying, "This is My Beloved Son, hear ye Him." We have The Holy Spirit inside of us (Spirit-Filled believers do) which gives us His Word and His Presence whenever we seek and allow Him to do so, as He wills. It is This Living Word, The Spirit of The Lord, that speaks His Will to others, in prophecy, words of wisdom, words of knowledge, and in many other ways, which have yet to be counted.
If He didn't, then we'd know that He is NOT The Holy Spirit, but an imposter.
As I said (see above) He does exactly as I have described, which is pure passion to see His Will in the life of someone that The Lord has desired for someone to pray for, and when we do, we are never rewarded (in this life) for what takes place, but God knows who travails in prayer, and who recites worthless dogma designed to make them appear religious.
You'd better believe it. I believe that there is one thing that grieves God more than anything else, and that is those who pretend to know Him, who really only know 'about' Him, that then do their best to prevent others from ever coming into contact with Him, by confusing them with dogma and religious hogwash. Jesus said of those in His 'day' that they were whitewashed empty vessels, and that they made the outside of the cup clean, but the inside was full of dead men's bones.
Anyone who has the least bit of knowledge of The Lord ought to know that there is nothing that is hidden from His Sight. Only those who love and reverence His Presence will ever find His Presence, or desire Him enough to stay there, or to seek Him out again and again. He said that He would be found by those who seek for Him with their whole heart. Don't you believe Him? What's holding you back?
He's been doing that since the dawn of time. In this, the Church age, He has been given, unto believers who ask for Him, and He cannot be taken away.
These things are true, and He is able to do even more than these few verses describe.
Not as much as what comes from one with a 'skewed' viewpoint, trying to prove that He doesn't do what He does every single day, all day long.
Do you believe that John was preaching to twelve disciples only? I believe that he was speaking to anyone who would be saved, and seek The Lord for baptism in The Holy Spirit.
Again, the 'skewed' point of view. Those who were called apostles or propehts in The New Testament weren't only twelve men, and The Lord is able to give any gifts that He wishes to anyone that He wishes.
Amen.
There is One Baptism, which is God's Presence, which is typified by immersion, sprinkling or spritzing; but is complete when God comes to dwell inside of temples not made with hands. He doesn't do so with anyone who has not invited Him to.
I believe it to be a burning, yearning and longing desire for more and more of His Presence and His Truth. The longer one remains in His Presence, the more one becomes 'like' Him, desiring Him increases, as does hunger. That 'fire' that I have experienced has kindled me and still does, in many areas of my life, as well as touching others through me.
That's WHACKED. If that were the case, John would have said, "...baptize you with The Holy Ghost, and send the goats to hell."
So, the twelve layed hands on the other 108 in the upper room? They also layed hands on thousands, the same day? I don't think so. He does fill people who have prayed for His Baptism through the laying on of hands by the presbytry, but He also fills those who seek Him with their whole heart, however He pleases. He is God, and is not subject to your knowledge 'about' Him, which is conjecture, invented by the mind of someone who has never met Him, reading about His Exploits done through those who did.
Now you're missing the point. The Holy Spirit Baptism is The Lord's Gift to His Children, and is how He is able to write His Laws upon our hearts. It is only through His Presence and His Love that we are able to fulfill His Will for us, which is to no longer live, but to allow Christ to live, inside of us, The Hope of Glory. He is The Earnest of our inheritance. He is The Down Payment. The problem with being scholarly or religious is that these things become goals within themselve. Too many, yes, even too many so-called 'spirit-filled' believers, miss the mark and allow their ideas and their conjecture to become their god or their goal. We need to carefully keep our eyes upon Jesus, and let Him be our goal. Seek His Face, and let everything else take a 'back seat' to Him. When we seek Him, He said that He would be found by us, if we seek Him with our whole heart. He wasn't joking. He didn't mean that we would find Him when we die, either. That would be foolish. He is able to be found, but only by those who seek Him with their whole heart.
When you find Him, is when you realize how little you truly know about Him, and first become aware that He really exists. Everything before becomes like a dream, because we were trying to prove whether He existed or not, while we attempted to walk by faith. When we meet Him is when we realize that He is calling us up higher and higher all the time, that He wants us to increase in faith, not rest on our laurels.
Re: Filled With The Spirit?
Re: Filled With The Spirit?
And, Paul constantly states that there is no differentiation between Jew and Gentile in the Body of Christ. And Paul did not preach the law. James stated that we are justified by works, and not faith only. Paul said the completel opposite. They did contradict, each other, yet they saw each other as preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ. Why is that?
Re: Filled With The Spirit?
You're kidding, right? Read Acts 10:47. You quoted it in post #206.
And, Paul constantly states that there is no differentiation between Jew and Gentile in the Body of Christ. And Paul did not preach the law. James stated that we are justified by works, and not faith only. Paul said the completel opposite. They did contradict, each other, yet they saw each other as preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ. Why is that?
JustAChristian
New member
Re: Inside Info from The Holy Spirit of The Lord!!!
Re: Inside Info from The Holy Spirit of The Lord!!!
Aimiel,
I scanned your posting but I did not see ONE scriptural referance. I am sorry but you can't be your own authority. Paul said, "And whatsoever ye do in WORD or DEED, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him." (Col. 3:17). Go back and give me some scripture on what you believe. I can't answer to your opinions, feelings or supositions. Opinions are like noses; everyone has one!
JustAChristian :angel:
Re: Inside Info from The Holy Spirit of The Lord!!!
Aimiel,
I scanned your posting but I did not see ONE scriptural referance. I am sorry but you can't be your own authority. Paul said, "And whatsoever ye do in WORD or DEED, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him." (Col. 3:17). Go back and give me some scripture on what you believe. I can't answer to your opinions, feelings or supositions. Opinions are like noses; everyone has one!
JustAChristian :angel: