When Did the Disciples of Jesus Stop Observing the Old Testament Laws?

clefty

New member
It is clear in the Bible, it was some 14 years after DBR that the 12 found out about Paul's gospel, given to him first by the risen ascended Christ on the road to Damascus.

Galatians 2:1 KJV - Galatians 2:2 KJV -

What changed there was that Paul accepted what he had been persecuting.

Oh and slowly the joos realized it wasn't just about them...

But Sabbaths were still kept. As were the feasts, Paul even admonishes we keep the feast with the new unleavened bread. Oh and Peter kept kosher...
 

TweetyBird

New member
What changed there was that Paul accepted what he had been persecuting.

Oh and slowly the joos realized it wasn't just about them...

But Sabbaths were still kept. As were the feasts, Paul even admonishes we keep the feast with the new unleavened bread. Oh and Peter kept kosher...

Why are you writing "joos"? That is totally disrespectful.

Paul did not admonish anyone to keep Passover. You keep Passover by sacrificing a lamb and painting one's door posts and removing leaven from your dwelling place. Paul said to remove leaven from yourself. That is NOT Passover at all, in the least. He also said that Jesus was the Passover, which completely puts to death Passover according to the Mosaic Law Covenant.

Peter did not "keep kosher". But I will say, you have quite the sense of humor if you think so. Maybe he kept those extra dishes in his knapsack :rotfl:
 

clefty

New member
All of the Mosaic Law Covenant, yes, because it brought death, bondage, a yoke, and the desire to sin.

That's a long way from "O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day."

What you describe is not its fault. It just is.

As if we should detest gravity for our dropped and broken toys.
 
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TweetyBird

New member
That's a long way from "O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day."

What you describe is not it's fault. It just is.

As if we should detest gravity for our dropped and broken toys.

For David, at the time, yes being in the old covenant. For those in the New Covenant, no. Peter spoke of the yoke of the Law of Moses in Acts 15. Paul spoke of the death, bondage and desire to sin in Romans.
 

patrick jane

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Banned
Slow down there champ...

"Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord."

We are dead to sin, sin is not dead, it still exists.
Of course sin still exists, clefty chin !! Paul talks all about that -
 

patrick jane

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Banned
What changed there was that Paul accepted what he had been persecuting.

Oh and slowly the joos realized it wasn't just about them...

But Sabbaths were still kept. As were the feasts, Paul even admonishes we keep the feast with the new unleavened bread. Oh and Peter kept kosher...
It's Jews you anti-semite

Mark 7:15 KJV - Mark 7:18 KJV - Mark 7:19 KJV -
 

clefty

New member
I don't see that. What Acts says it that broke bread together daity, joined together as a community, shared all their common goods, prayed and worshiped together and then went to the Temple to preach the Gospel. That does not sound like the Mosaic Law to me. I will say the change in keeping the law was progressive. Changing 1500 years of practice takes time to change. That is why Jesus called Paul, and taught him Himself so that he could reveal the mystery of the Gospel.

The Law was changed gradually now? Because revelation of the mystery of the gospel alters the qualifications and terms to be saved from what came previously? These conditions and forms and practice are ended because His incarnation allows us a free pass?


How is Jesus saying "this is My Blood of the New Covenant which is shed for many for the forgiveness of sins", speaking from silence?

Until you have Him teaching and preaching that the Law was changed or even abolished then you have only silence. As you alluded, the greater part of the Torah was establishing this perfect Law both in function and form and in great detail. So any alteration would also be itemized and need clarification. It was FALSE testimony that claimed Paul taught there was a change in the law.

You are correct however in that change took time and was progressive. Much was added and removed by man's arrogance and traditions evolving into a most idolatrous counterfeit. Same thing happened in the OT.

But He taught think NOT He came to change or destroy the Law.

In fact, they killed Him because He was restoring the original.

He answered "What must I do to be saved?" with "keep the commandments".

He taught do what "if you love me"?

New covenant, new contract, but same terms--namely trust and obey.



Peter ate with the Gentiles. Jesus said what goes into the body cannot make one unclean and then God confirmed it to Peter when He let down the sheet full of unclean animals and told him to eat - 3 times.

And all 3 times Peter refused as it was unclean food. Troubled by the vision, he finally gets it. It has nothing to do with his finally being able to eat bacon, but as he explains, the Gentiles were no longer unclean and should be included.

Jesus died at Passover so of course the new covenant was not in effect until He died.
To keep the feast was His desire not to end it.

Sabbath and feast keeping is included in Paul's exhortation we follow him as he followed Him...in everything. What's that popular phrase? WWJD...certainly not eat Sunday ham.

Paul lived in many communities during his ministry and mostly with the Gentiles. Having written that "But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse" I hardly doubt that Paul was "kosher". You do understand that "kosher" is not the same thing as what is written in the Mosaic Law?

Had you bothered to read the article that starts this thread you would see not only did he keep the old law tradition but instructed Gentiles to come back the next Sabbath to hear more about the good news. He did not say come back tomorrow the "Lord's day".

You would have also read how Acts 15 establishes 4 things required of Gentiles crowding the synagogues on Sabbaths to hear the Law, 3 of these dealt with dietary restrictions.

Ironically these restriction were less about being saved and more about "social manners". You see, even before that crises, true believers have always known trying to keep the Law does not save you but you wish to try and keep the Law because you believe you are saved. It's out of gratitude for what was done.

Noah believed first then obeyed building an ark. Abraham had faith and then was obedient even to circumcision. Moses too was already in route to carry out his mission when he was circumcised.

Faith incites obedience, a rebellion from a lawless world.

Passover could not be maintained. It was completely satisfied in Christ. You don't "maintain" the shadows when the Light casts no shadows.

Tell that to Paul who maintained it and Pentecost as well which depends on a count from Passover.

Oh, and well, he did write there ARE shadows and not the past tense WERE.
 
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clefty

New member
Peter did not "keep kosher". But I will say, you have quite the sense of humor if you think so. Maybe he kept those extra dishes in his knapsack :rotfl:

Ha...so do you, thinking Paul would forsake Yah's Law, calendar, and tradition to take up man's. He even shaved his head to prove he wasn't teaching a change of the Law.

Your joke is especially funny as the rabbinic tradition for two sets of plates was developed centuries after Paul hurried to Jerusalem with his knapsack for the Passover.

http://seedofabraham.net/Kosher-Biblical-vs-Jewish.pdf
 

TweetyBird

New member
Until you have Him teaching and preaching that the Law was changed or even abolished then you have only silence. As you alluded, the greater part of the Torah was establishing this perfect Law both in function and form and in great detail. So any alteration would also be itemized and need clarification. It was FALSE testimony that claimed Paul taught there was a change in the law.

Jesus taught a new covenant law - all through the Gospels. There was a change in the Law, when Jesus died for the sins of mankind. The Mosaic Law Covenant was founded upon the shed blood of animals. We are no longer under that Covenant.

You are correct however in that change took time and was progressive. Much was added and removed by man's arrogance and traditions evolving into a most idolatrous counterfeit. Same thing happened in the OT.

The Gospel of Christ was founded upon Him, the apostles and prophets. All throughout the NT, the New Covenant is taught - a brand new law, never heard before. The count of commandments is over 1000.

But He taught think NOT He came to change or destroy the Law.

He did change it. He became the High Priest of Melchizedek, replacing the Levitical Priesthood. He replaced the sacrificial system upon which the entire Mosaic Law rested.

In fact, they killed Him because He was restoring the original.

No, they killed Him because He taught a new commandments, called Himself God, and called out the wickedness and hypocrisy of the religious leaders. Then they found false witnesses to bring charges of sedition against Rome to the Roman authorities. That is why Rome eventually took Him to the cross.

He answered "What must I do to be saved?" with "keep the commandments".

It wasn't enough was it? Because Jesus told him to sell everything and follow Him. That is not "Torah".

He taught do what "if you love me"?

New covenant, new contract, but same terms--namely trust and obey.

No, not the same terms at all. The terms of the old covenant was to sacrifice animals for the atonement of sin.




And all 3 times Peter refused as it was unclean food.

Which is why God told him 3 times. He was a blockhead :bang: He finally got it though, because we know later he ate and hung with the Gentiles.

Troubled by the vision, he finally gets it. It has nothing to do with his finally being able to eat bacon, but as he explains, the Gentiles were no longer unclean and should be included.

Do you think God was telling Peter to eat the Gentiles for din-din? :nori::TomO:

To keep the feast was His desire not to end it.

No, not to keep the feast. That is not what He said at all. He said to take wine and bread to celebrate His death till He comes. That is not Passover.

Sabbath and feast keeping is included in Paul's exhortation we follow him as he followed Him...in everything. What's that popular phrase? WWJD...certainly not eat Sunday ham.

Food has nothing to do with the Kingdom of Heaven. As Jesus said, nothing is unclean that goes into the body, but what comes out the other end. What is unclean are the thoughts and evil intents found in the heart.


Had you bothered to read the article that starts this thread you would see not only did he keep the old law tradition but instructed Gentiles to come back the next Sabbath to hear more about the good news. He did not say come back tomorrow the "Lord's day".

Believers did not go back to the synagogue on the Sabbath to hear Moses. They went to preach the Gospel. And just like today, if you go into a synagogue and attempt to preach Jesus they will kick you out.

You would have also read how Acts 15 establishes 4 things required of Gentiles crowding the synagogues on Sabbaths to hear the Law, 3 of these dealt with dietary restrictions.

Nope - believing Gentiles were not "crowding into the synagogues to hear Moses". The Gentiles were considered UNCLEAN, remember? Acts 15 says nothing about a requirement for Gentiles to attend synagogues or observing the Sabbath. Nothing like that is listed in the four commandments given. Around 15 years later it is again confirmed that the Gentile believers were ONLY given those FOUR commandments [Acts 21].

Ironically these restriction were less about being saved and more about "social manners". You see, even before that crises, true believers have always known trying to keep the Law does not save you but you wish to try and keep the Law because you believe you are saved. It's out of gratitude for what was done.

As early at the second century, people actually believed Paul and Jesus, that the Mosaic Law was done away with and the new covenant Law of Christ was in place - the Gospel of Christ and living for Him, without the observance of the Mosaic Law. It had vanished away per 2 Cor 3.

Noah believed first then obeyed building an ark. Abraham had faith and then was obedient even to circumcision. Moses too was already in route to carry out his mission when he was circumcised.

Moses even refused to circumcise his sons, and an angel was sent to kill him. His wife, Zipporah, stepped in and did it herself and called him a bloody husband.

Tell that to Paul who maintained it and Pentecost as well which depends on a count from Passover.

No, Paul did not maintain Passover. He taught the Passover was fulfilled/satisfied in Christ. Jesus is the Passover Lamb. One cannot keep Passover until they take literal leaven out of their dwelling place, and kill a lamb for the atonement for sin.

Paul stated clearly that when he was with the Jews He kept the Law to win them to Christ, but when he was with the Gentiles, he did not keep the Law to win them to Christ. That is defintely rebellion according to the Mosaic Law, so in reality, he was not keeping the Law at all.

Deuteronomy 16:2
Thou shalt therefore sacrifice the passover unto the Lord thy God, of the flock and the herd, in the place which the Lord shall choose to place his name there.

1 Corinthians 5:7
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

Oh, and well, he did write there ARE shadows and not the past tense WERE.

From the perspective of the Mosaic Law. Paul uses future tense from the past looking forward often in reference to the Mosaic Law.

Jesus is the Light of the World, in Him there is no shadow. He accomplished and satisfied the Law of Moses Covenant 100% and freed all who are in Him from the death, bondage, yoke, and curse of the Law for all eternity. It is over. Done. Accomplished. It is Finished. The veil of the Temple was torn in two, exposing the Holy of Holies, pulling down the partition and reconciling us to God through His blood. We are free from the Law in Him.
 

jamie

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LIFETIME MEMBER
Paul did not admonish anyone to keep Passover. You keep Passover by sacrificing a lamb and painting one's door posts and removing leaven from your dwelling place. Paul said to remove leaven from yourself. That is NOT Passover at all, in the least. He also said that Jesus was the Passover, which completely puts to death Passover according to the Mosaic Law Covenant.

A new Passover had to be instituted because the Mosaic Passover required males to be circumcised which is done away with in the NT.

Luke 22:14-20 When the hour had come, He sat down and the twelve apostles with Him. Then He said to them, “With fervent desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer for I say to you, I will no longer eat of it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.”

Then He took the cup and gave thanks and said, “Take this and divide it among yourselves for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”

And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it and gave it to them saying, “This is My body which is given for you, do this in remembrance of Me.”

Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1 Corinthians 11:26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.

The Lord has not yet come for the kingdom.
 

TweetyBird

New member
A new Passover had to be instituted because the Mosaic Passover required males to be circumcised which is done away with in the NT.

Luke 22:14-20 When the hour had come, He sat down and the twelve apostles with Him. Then He said to them, “With fervent desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer for I say to you, I will no longer eat of it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.”

Then He took the cup and gave thanks and said, “Take this and divide it among yourselves for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”

And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it and gave it to them saying, “This is My body which is given for you, do this in remembrance of Me.”

Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1 Corinthians 11:26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.

The Lord has not yet come for the kingdom.

The word pesach, translated as Passover - means sacrifice aka the lamb. So unless you are going to redo Christ's sacrifice every spring, then there is no "new passover".

Exodus 12:21
Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover.

Mark 14:12
And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover.

Luke 22:7
Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.

1 Corinthians 5:7
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Exodus 12:21
Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover.

Was there a Lamb of God?

1 Corinthians 5:7-8 For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast.

The feast of Passover is seven days during which unleavened bread is to be eaten.

Revelation 5:12 Worthy is the Lamb who was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom,
and strength and honor and glory and blessing!
 

TweetyBird

New member
Was there a Lamb of God?
You don't know?

1 Corinthians 5:7-8 For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast.

That is not what Paul said. He said to "keep the feast" by taking the leaven out of ones self. He was not referring to the Passover as literal, but instead of Passover proper - with the slaying of a lamb and other commandments, one keeps Passover in their hearts by keeping the leaven out of it and remembering that Jesus was our Passover Lamb. He was not suggesting that they keep a literal Passover. I am sorry you are having a hard time understanding this. We are supposed to be remembering Jesus death with bread and wine till He comes. That is His commandment, not keeping the Mosaic Passover.

The feast of Passover is seven days during which unleavened bread is to be eaten.

Paul was not referring to that was he? He said, "Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth." ---- That is not the literal Passover of the Mosaic Law.

Revelation 5:12 Worthy is the Lamb who was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom,
and strength and honor and glory and blessing!

Great verse, but what this has to do with you wanting to celebrate Passover with a slain lamb and take all leaven out of your bread and your house, is incomprehensible.
 
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