ECT What is the true root objection to MAD?

[heir]

God's Will is to bring mankind into closer relationship with Him, wanting none of us to perish.

How much closer can we in the Body get than complete in Him? (Colossians 2:10 KJV)?

 

[IMJerusha]

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

You think he was writing to non-Christians?...because in Yeshua there is no Jew or Gentile.

Not to us!

I'm not the judge of that.

 

[IMJerusha]

How much closer can we in the Body get than complete in Him? (Colossians 2:10 KJV)?

Key words, "in Him!" John 15:1-11 ( close attention to verse 11). Are you now including me in the Body? :chuckle:

 

[Stripe]

Ah, there it is.

Salvation is a relationship.

Can a relationship not have rules?

Instructions are not rules. Not necessarily.

I would use the two words interchangeably here. Why would you do otherwise?

Every relationship and every situation is different.

Which means there can never be any rules as part of a relationship?

Rules in a household imply that those subject to them have become objects rather than family members.

So a rule that says "No shoes in the house" turns everyone into an object?

The rules treat each person the same whereas in family we like to each have our own identity and to contribute to family life as the individuals we are.

Why can you not have both?

Rules do not contribute to self-discipline.

Why not?

And they create a lot of tension. If someone does something wrong in our household s/he is had words with that are directed to the person and the situation. This causes growth. Rules only make you feel a failure.

How does someone do something wrong without rules?

Rules are not helpful.

Have you ever played sport?

I see two contradictory attitudes here.

What are they?

If rules are merely a tool, then it doesn't matter if they are not adhered to.

A tool for what?

Surely a good reason to follow rules is if rules are good in themselves, not because someone else has bad rules.

OK.

This depends on the context and the implications. The law of Moses was and is good. But this doesn't mean that it is binding or that anyone should follow it slavishly. The children of the king are exempt from the law because they are family. The law is for the masses who have no direct relationship with the king and who need to be kept in order. The law is good for things like that. But for those who are family, who already work according to a different principle, the law is unnecessary.

So you do see a need for rules?

I just wondered why you thought that believing plays no part in salvation?

It does play a part in salvation in that you can't accept what you do not believe. It plays no part in that having a belief does not contribute toward salvation. Belief is a road along which you can walk to the cross. However, just walking down the road will not justify you if when you come to the cross, you turn and walk away.



I think the crux of our disagreement is this: You live free in the liberty of Jesus Christ. However, your liberty does not mean the law has passed away or is of no value.

And I think you've missed the vital point: The rules regarding salvation have changed. Whatever is taught nowadays about salvation has to be different from what was taught before Jesus died.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Sorry...sheesh!

Well, that was accomplished with Yeshua's presence on earth unless you believe He could have/would have backed out of the deal; been disobedient. But then, He would not have been spotless.

Again, this becomes pedantic from almost every nuanced perspective.

You don't think the intangible realm is creation as well? I do but I guess I'm just weird like that.

My statement was specifically that the intangible IS created. Please reread.

 

[Cross Reference]

Yes, but the Gospel wasn't in effect until after His ascension and Pentecost.

Then how was it that 500+disciples were with Jesus when He ascended? How come 120 of them hung around till Pentecost? You might won't to also wonder why 380 didn't?

 

[heir]

Key words, "in Him!" John 15:1-11 ( close attention to verse 11). Are you now including me in the Body? :chuckle:

John wrote to Israel, not the Body of Christ. Why not trust the Lord believing the gospel of Christ that is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth then when I speak of those of us in the Body, you'll be included in that.

 

[IMJerusha]

:cheers:

Again, this becomes pedantic from almost every nuanced perspective.

I don't think so. I think it just disagrees with your perspective.

My statement was specifically that the intangible IS created. Please reread.

When I say universe, I think that applies to all of creation, tangible as well as intangible.

 

[andyc]

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Not to us!

If you want to take it that literally, nothing Paul said was to you, but to the churches he was writing to.

 

[heir]

If you want to take that literally, nothing Paul said was to you, but to the churches he was writing to.

Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

 

[andyc]

Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Paul is talking to gentiles grafted into the olive tree. Is that you?

 

[IMJerusha]

John wrote to Israel, not the Body of Christ.

That is what your doctrine teaches. Most scholars believe John's purpose was evangelistic but it was also to edify and instruct the Body.

Why not trust the Lord believing the gospel of Christ that is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth.

I do. I just don't buy your doctrine.

 

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

:cheers:

I don't think so. I think it just disagrees with your perspective.

Nope. Lot's of pedanticism from many perspectives.

When I say universe, I think that applies to all of creation, tangible as well as intangible.

Fair enough. Most distinguish and omit. Proceed.

 

[IMJerusha]

Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

You would be a very old Gentile at this time, Heir. :chuckle:
And the funny thing is that you don't really know if you are a Gentile or a Jew courtesy of the diaspora. The blessing is that it doesn't matter because in Yeshua there are no Jews or Gentiles.

 

[heir]

Paul is talking to gentiles grafted into the olive tree. Is that you?

Paul is the apostle of the Gentiles and was later a prisoner of Jesus Christ for us Gentiles, given a dispensation of the grace of God to give to us Gentiles, if you want to get technical. Gentiles, nonetheless.

Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

Ephesians 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Ephesians 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

 

[heir]

Furthermore, Paul filled up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in his flesh for His body's sake, which is the church

Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

Colossians 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

Colossians 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Colossians 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Colossians 1:29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.


That's us!

 

[IMJerusha]

Nope. Lot's of pedanticism from many perspectives.

But not from mine! :chuckle:

Fair enough. Most distinguish and omit. Proceed.

Whew!...thanks!

 

[heir]

We're to follow Paul!

1 Corinthians 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

1 Corinthians 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.



We're to hold fast the form of sound words that we have heard of Paul (that's Romans through Philemon!).


2 Timothy 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

Commit what we've heard of Paul to faithful men that they can teach others also!

2 Timothy 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.


Consider what Paul says and the Lord give thee understanding!



2 Timothy 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

2 Timothy 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

2 Timothy 2:9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.

 

[andyc]

Paul is the apostle of the Gentiles and was later a prisoner of Jesus Christ for us Gentiles, given a dispensation of the grace of God to give to us Gentiles, if you want to get technical. Gentiles, nonetheless.

Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Ephesians 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

Ephesians 3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Ephesians 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Ephesians 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

You're wanting to be literal. Therefore the gentiles Paul was talking to were grafted into the olive tree, and he explained that God would not spare these gentiles if they fell into unbelief.

Now I know you will refuse to accept that this is talking about you.

 

[andyc]

Furthermore, Paul filled up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in his flesh for His body's sake, which is the church

Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

Colossians 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

Colossians 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Colossians 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Colossians 1:29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.


That's us!

John 14:20 "At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

At the day of Pentecost, Christ would be in his disciples. The hope of glory?