What is the express image of God?

[dave3712]

There is only ONE God.

God the Father is God the Son/Savior.


Our Lord Jesus told us that he and LORD the Father are ONE.

He told us that when anyone had SEEN HIM (the Son of flesh), they had SEEN THE Father.

Yeah,... that is what I am saying too.

I am saying that God is the ever unfolding Reality that creates the next frame of existence, and his image is Truth which he sires in His wake:


John 14:6 I am the Truth, and the way,and the life....

Anyone who sees Truth see the reality that has unfolded.

 

[Read]

Read, your a thinking person for sure. You want me to show you why I think he was created BEFORE creation itself, I assume yu mean before the world was created.

First, I never base my assumptions on one verse. So let me tell you why I believe that he had it before creation.

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

He had power to create BEFORE the world was created

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power,

This makes him a form of God. It would not be unreasonableto think that he had the power before creation if he used it to create.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Again, combined with Hebrews, this shows he is the image of God, He is also the firstborn of every creature. To my way of thinking it appears that Christ was God's first creation and second he is firstborn. Now I am aware most think that firstborn in this verse means first in rank, I agree, but it also means first born.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

He is the creator for his father. God was pleased that he had his fullness.

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Now that makes me wonder if the father was concerned that it might not have his fullness, or is that God's way of telling us that he created another God?

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

This image, which I see as spirit was IN Christ Jesus.

Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

More words to tell us that Christ (the image spirit) is a form of God.

That is how I came to the conclusions I have, I think they are correct but I am not a person of high education. God had other plans for me in my younger days.

Anyway Mr Read, that is my story. And I am open to your or any ones elses thoughts for this is all new to me. This is something that I think was given to me for a reason.

Peace and God Bless

Keypurr, you write,

"You want me to show you why I think he was created BEFORE creation itself, I assume yu mean before the world was created."

One of the most popular texts quoted in an attempt to prove that Christ was created before the world is the one you quoted lastly, that is Philippians 2:5-6.

There has been a lot of arguments about this passage epecially about the phrase "the form of God". Lets use Weymouth's translation of the text of Phil.2:5-8 which may allow us a new understanding.

Weymouth translates:

v.5 Let the same disposition be in you which was in Christ (Messiah)Jesus.
v.6 Although from the beginning He had the nature of God He did not reckon His equality with God a treasure to be tightly grasped.
v.7 Nay, He stripped Himself of His glory, and took on Him the nature of a bondservant by becoming a man like other men.
v.8 And being recognized as truly human, He humbled Himself and even stooped to die; yes, to die on a cross.

Now most people reading this passage, associate the word "glory" here with Christ's supposed "pre-incarnate" heavenly existence.

But what in context is the glory he stripped himself of? It is not that Jesus was God Almighty as some insist! The answer is given just two verses earlier which stresses the enormous status Jesus enjoyed as the man Messiah as verse 5 introduces him.

The Son of God did not empty himself of one form in order to take on another form, that of a servant. That is only read into the text!

"Nay, He stripped Himself of His glory that was his as the man Messiah, and took on Him the nature of a bondservant by becoming a man like other men (Phil.2:7). This explanation you can find in the text.

An example of Jesus stripping himself of his glory is found in the gospels when "...charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Messiah" (Mt.16:20).

So Keypurr, let the same disposition be in us which was in Jesus, who though he was the man Messiah, "the pre-destined Lord of the universe, the appointed heir of all things" (Heb.1:2); nevertheless "took on Him the nature of a bondservant by becoming a man like other men" (Phil.2:7).



Read!

 

[dave3712]

Posted by dave3712
John 8:58
Jesus replied, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, before Abraham was born, I AM.

///

:cheers:

Your observation, that Christ pre-existed Abraham,... clearly establishes that Jesus was merely the son-of-man.
While, what the gospels are telling us, is that Christ is a euphemism for the ideal of Truth.

It is Truth, as a concept, which, as a spirit, (holy, indeed), is the Christ an savior of mankind.

Truth is the "son-of-the-creative-force" that unfolds the real world we are all both trapped within and nurtured by.

It was the spirit of Truth which came down from heaven and alighted upon jesus, transfiguring him into the Elijah, returned.
It was Elijah in 800BC who suddenly appeared at an age of @30, and did all the things Christ would do again in 32AD.

Both mere men were endowed with the spirit of truth and transfigured.
Both men were pre-dated by Truth that has always existed from the beginning.

 

[dave3712]

Posted by dave3712


1) John1:1
In the beginning was the Word, (i.e.; Truth: [John 14:6]), and the Word, ([John 14:9], Truth, itself), was (synonymous) with God, (i.e.; the ever unfolding Reality), and the Word, (Truth: [John 14:6]), was (for men,... indistinguishable from the ever unfolding Reality, i.e...), God, (almighty Reality for all men).

2 "He," (Truth, the symbolic Word to come: [Jud 1:3]) was with God, (i.e.; the ever unfolding Reality), in the beginning, (that is, in the initial unfolding of Reality in what was the Creation).

Jn 1:3 ALL (real) THINGS, (phenomenally, i.e.; mentally), came into existence (for men) through him, (i.e.; this concept of Truth), and apart from him, (this ideal of Truth), not even ONE (real) thing came into (actual) existence (as far as men are concerned).


/////

Christ, being an express image of God, is the only one who could ever fully understand just how great our God is.

Exactly.

Truth corresponds, one-to-one, with what is real.
As the ever unfolding Reality engulfs us, Truth is sired in its wake.
But mortal man must discern Truth and establish it as a concept in his mind.
When he does, his thoughts embody the holy kind of spirit that can save men, and work towards the everlasting life of our species.

But Truth, itself, is the expression of what is and has been Real, differentiating the fantasy worlds from the Reality all sane men accept and recognize.

 

[dave3712]

.... "the pre-destined Lord of the universe, the appointed heir of all things" (Heb.1:2); nevertheless "took on Him the nature of a bondservant by becoming a man like other men" (Phil.2:7).

.... the pre-destined Lord of the universe, (Truth), the appointed heir (in the wake) of all things (that have actually been created)... "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, (i.e.; the Truth sired in the wake of the unfolding Reality before us), whom he (almighty Reality, itself), hath appointed heir, ( or the express image) of all things,... by whom, (i.e.; this concept of what is true), also he made (the congruent image of) the worlds, (one external to man and one envisioned within, mentally) Heb.1:2;

...nevertheless "took on Him, (while in the State of the Christ), the nature of a bondservant by becoming (again, as before he was baptized), a man like other men".... who, [Christ], though he was in the form [Gk morphE] of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited,
but emptied [Gk keno, from which English "kenosis" is derived] himself, taking the form of a slave (i.e.; as Jesus, and no longer, The Christ), being born in human likeness [Gk homoima].
And being found, (again, as before his baptism: [Matt 3;16,17][), in human form [Gk schema], (returned to the son-of-man, again) hil.2:7.

 

[Jacob]

You seem to bow appreciate the idea that Christ is not actually Jesus, which has been my point.

Jesus, as the son-of-man did not pre-date Abraham, because we know Mary gave birth in 32AD.

But Christ, the Truth, clearly pre-dates that whole of the creation , following in the wake of the Reality that evermore unfolds at the time of the Big Bang Beginning of the heaven and the earth.

I believe Jesus to be the Christ, but I sensed that you are separating the concept of the Christ from Jesus.

 

[Ps82]

Yeah,... that is what I am saying too.

I am saying that God is the ever unfolding Reality that creates the next frame of existence, and his image is Truth which he sires in His wake:


John 14:6 I am the Truth, and the way,and the life....

Anyone who sees Truth see the reality that has unfolded.

Hi dave,
Some of the phrases and terms you use to describe the ONE God are not familiar to me, so I'm not sure of all you mean when you write.

BUT, I will say this:
There is ONE God ... but he is able to reveal himself in ways that you and I cannot. He can be the ONE invisible Spiritual God, but reveal himself visually in multiples by the use of his created living image associated with him.

I know this because he has already revealed himself twice. Once as the super-natural Father ... then again as the natural fleshly Savior.

Therefore, the world / humanity recognizes him in two ways ... as the Father and the Son.

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses all knew him as Father ... and I think that many of them were aware that there was yet another ONE (presence of God on earth/ Emmanuel) to be revealed in the future.

We know God as our Lord, who was God in flesh, who died, and has risen to glorification.

They (the two of them) are HE ... or HE is they. That's one of the reasons that Jesus could reveal that he had shared the GLORY with the Father before the world was.

What was God's GLORY. Well, it was his presence. Read Exodus 33 and 34 and you will find that Moses wanted to see God's Glory and wanted God's presence to go before Israel into the promised Land; so, God agreed to reveal all of his goodness to Moses and came down and passed before Moses to reveal his glorious presence in all his glory. While the glory of God's presence passed by, God called out ITS name: The LORD, The LORD God ... and Moses was allowed to look upon the glory of God's presence as it departed away... so that Moses safely saw the back parts of the image of the LORD in all its goodness as he/IT retreated.

God only reveals himself by using the ONE same image ... whether it be manifested of the essence of dreams ... in visions of the day in angelic form ... or whether it be outright as it was with Moses to talked to God face to face.

Finally, our Lord has been revealed as the Lordly image in flesh, which no man had ever before seen until the day of Jesus.

You and I will one future day see him glorified as our risen Lord.

 

[keypurr]

There is only ONE God. God the Father is God the Son/Savior.
Isaiah 43:11
I (the ONE God), even I am the LORD, beside ME (as the ONE God and as the LORD ) there is no savior.

Our Lord Jesus told us that he and LORD the Father are ONE.
He told us that when anyone had SEEN HIM (the Son of flesh), they had SEEN THE Father.

That is because they are the ONE God, who were both revealed with the same visible bodily form.
God the Father was revealed within creation with a super-natural / body of heaven ... while God the Son was revealed with a natural / body of flesh in his day. But this bodily form was the same image... it was just the essence of which the body was manifested that was different between the Father and the Son.

John the Baptist declared the identity of God the Son to us. We read about what was revealed to us by John the B in John 1:18.

No man at any time hath seen, God, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he (John the B) hath declared him (God the Son)

The time of Jesus was the first time any man had ever seen God manifested as the Son of flesh... until that time God had never revealed himself with flesh!

It is in this way that I say the God the Father ... and God the Son shared the same likeness of a bodily form... After all Jesus explained that they did ... when he said, "When you have SEEN ME ... you HAVE SEEN the Father."

We have to agree to disagree friend. I do not see the father being the son or the son being the father. They are two beings. God made a copy of himself, that is Christ. One true God and one created god. Only Christ has seen God as only Christ is an express image of God. so if you have seen christ, you have seen what and who God is.
Peace Ps82

 

[Read]

Euphemism

Euphemism

.... the pre-destined Lord of the universe, (Truth), the appointed heir (in the wake) of all things (that have actually been created)... "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, (i.e.; the Truth sired in the wake of the unfolding Reality before us), whom he (almighty Reality, itself), hath appointed heir, ( or the express image) of all things,... by whom, (i.e.; this concept of what is true), also he made (the congruent image of) the worlds, (one external to man and one envisioned within, mentally) Heb.1:2;

...nevertheless "took on Him, (while in the State of the Christ), the nature of a bondservant by becoming (again, as before he was baptized), a man like other men".... who, [Christ], though he was in the form [Gk morphE] of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited,
but emptied [Gk keno, from which English "kenosis" is derived] himself, taking the form of a slave (i.e.; as Jesus, and no longer, The Christ), being born in human likeness [Gk homoima].
And being found, (again, as before his baptism: [Matt 3;16,17][), in human form [Gk schema], (returned to the son-of-man, again) hil.2:7.

Dave I understand from an earlier post of yours that you think that: "Christ is a euphemism for the ideal of Truth." "Jesus is the Christ" (1 Jn.5:1) and Jesus is "the truth" (Jn.14:6).

Christ (ancient Greek: Χριστός, Khristós, meaning 'anointed') is a translation of the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Māšîaḥ), the Messiah, and is used as a title for Jesus in the New Testament.

Andrew told Peter that " We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ" (Jn.1:41).

If Jesus then is the truth, and the phrase "the Christ" his title; how can his title be "a euphemism for the ideal of Truth?"

Read!


The M
( I believe that that the man Christ Jesus (the man Messiah) is the pre-destined Lord of the universe.

 

[Totton Linnet]

When keypurr read "He was in the form of God" it smote his conscience, he knew he was wrong....but he slyly changed it to "He being in a form of God"

How can he BE so sly?

 

[Ps82]

We have to agree to disagree friend. I do not see the father being the son or the son being the father. They are two beings. God made a copy of himself, that is Christ. One true God and one created god. Only Christ has seen God as only Christ is an express image of God. so if you have seen christ, you have seen what and who God is.
Peace Ps82

What nuance about the truth that there is only ONE God that you haven't yet seen?

What part of Christ's own words do you not accept?
quote: "The Father and I are ONE."

What truth from Isaiah 43:11 is escaping you?
quote: "I,(God) even I am the LORD, beside ME (as God and LORD) there is no Savior."

Now ... the Father and the Son ... being the ONE God ... can only become two personages by the use of God's created personal image of choice. God used the IMAGE he formed for himself to reveal himself unto being he created.

The world / human beings / were allowed to meet the ONE God manifested visually as the Super-natural Father and then again as the natural fleshly Son. We comprehend them as two visual individuals ... but we are told often the truth that - there is only one God.

HE (The ONE God) is they ... and they are HE.
This miracle is out of the ability for a mere man ... but with God all things are possible.

 

[dave3712]

Posted by dave3712
You seem to bow appreciate the idea that Christ is not actually Jesus, which has been my point.

Jesus, as the son-of-man did not pre-date Abraham, because we know Mary gave birth in 32AD.

But Christ, the Truth, clearly pre-dates that whole of the creation , following in the wake of the Reality that evermore unfolds at the time of the Big Bang Beginning of the heaven and the earth.


///


I believe Jesus to be the Christ, but I sensed that you are separating the concept of the Christ from Jesus.

Yes, I am.

I see Jesus as the messiah ben Joseph, the suffering messiah.
I see The Christ as the Spirit of God indwelling him.
God is a spirit.

I support this by noting that scripture separates the physcial Jesus by referring to him as the son-of-man.
Bu,t the Christ is always called the son-of-God, which was indwelling Jesus until the transfiguration, when that spirit, (Elijah), left him to suffer the cross and death as any mortal might.

I also interpret the resurrection as the work of Elijah and Moses who brought the dead Jesus back to life.

John 20:12
And she saw two angels in white sitting there, one at the head and one at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.

 

[dave3712]

We have to agree to disagree friend. I do not see the father being the son or the son being the father. They are two beings. God made a copy of himself, that is Christ. One true God and one created god. Only Christ has seen God as only Christ is an express image of God. so if you have seen christ, you have seen what and who God is.
Peace Ps82

I reduce the sum of the New Testament to a word, i.e.; Truth.
Christ is the Ideal we know as Truth.
He said he is the personified ideal of that concept.

Christ identified himself, further, as the son-of-God, and de facto, he claimed to be his image the the Father.
But this then logically defines the once ineffable God of the Jews as the ever chnaging and evolving Reality which we live in from moment to moment.

The logic is simple.
Since Christ is Truth, he is the express image of what is and has been and will be Reality.

If you know the Truth, you know the Reality of the matter.

 

[dave3712]

What nuance about the truth that there is only ONE God that you haven't yet seen?

What part of Christ's own words do you not accept?
quote: "The Father and I are ONE."

What truth from Isaiah 43:11 is escaping you?
quote: "I,(God) even I am the LORD, beside ME (as God and LORD) there is no Savior."

Now ... the Father and the Son ... being the ONE God ... can only become two personages by the use of God's created personal image of choice. God used the IMAGE he formed for himself to reveal himself unto being he created.

The world / human beings / were allowed to meet the ONE God manifested visually as the Super-natural Father and then again as the natural fleshly Son. We comprehend them as two visual individuals ... but we are told often the truth that - there is only one God.

HE (The ONE God) is they ... and they are HE.
This miracle is out of the ability for a mere man ... but with God all things are possible.

You cannot distinguish what you conceive as Truth from the Reality that Truth shows you.
In fact, you can only use your seven senses to form your opinion of what seems True.

You guess from the input from your senses that Reality must actually be as you think it is according to the way you have envisioned it to be.

Christ is saying, when you are correct, and actually do envision thoughts about the Reality of a matter, then those thoughts are Holy.
They, that vison in your mind, are the Holy Spirit.

Thi is like when you finally see that "Separate but Equal" is a lie.

You are shocked by the assassination of Martin Luther King into being intellectually honest.
You then face the Truth, as it forms in your mind, and seeing the Facts-of-Life, as the Reality of unfairness in Civil Rights.

Then you change the Laws.

 

[dave3712]

Dave I understand from an earlier post of yours that you think that: "Christ is a euphemism for the ideal of Truth." "Jesus is the Christ" (1 Jn.5:1) and Jesus is "the truth" (Jn.14:6).

Christ (ancient Greek: Χριστός, Khristós, meaning 'anointed') is a translation of the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Māšîaḥ), the Messiah, and is used as a title for Jesus in the New Testament.

Andrew told Peter that " We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ" (Jn.1:41).

If Jesus then is the truth, and the phrase "the Christ" his title; how can his title be "a euphemism for the ideal of Truth?"

Read!


The M
( I believe that that the man Christ Jesus (the man Messiah) is the pre-destined Lord of the universe.

I totally agree that Christ is the Truth, personified in the presence of Jesus in 32AD.
I am merely separating the body from the mind here.

Jesus was the bodily son-of-man.
But his spirit of mind was that Holy state of mind that envision Truth and refutes the lies.

 

[Read]

Jesus was the bodily son-of-man?

Jesus was the bodily son-of-man?

I totally agree that Christ is the Truth, personified in the presence of Jesus in 32AD.
I am merely separating the body from the mind here.

Jesus was the bodily son-of-man.
But his spirit of mind was that Holy state of mind that envision Truth and refutes the lies.

Dave I think your idea that "Jesus was the bodily son-of-man" is questionable. But I am open.

Jesus was/is "the Son of man" however I find your terminology "Jesus was the bodily son-of-man" most confusing. The more especially so because you also say that "I am merely separating the body from the mind here."

Dave you cannot separate the body from the mind! Have you not read that "the body without the spirit is dead?" "Out of body experiences are illusions!" The person is hallucinating that is all.

Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The Son of man was "dust" animated by "spirit" the same as we are for Eccl.12:7 says: "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

When Jesus commended his spirit to his Father - he died. For Luke 23:46 says: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost." (Luke 23:4)

So I don't accept your idea of: "separating the body from the mind."

However I can agree with this statement of your: "But his spirit of mind was that Holy state of mind that envision Truth and refutes the lies."

For Eph.4:23-24 says: "And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."



If I am misunderstanding you in anything, please explain.

Thankyou,


Read!

 

[dave3712]

Dave I think your idea that "Jesus was the bodily son-of-man" is questionable. But I am open.

Jesus was/is "the Son of man" however I find your terminology "Jesus was the bodily son-of-man" most confusing. The more especially so because you also say that "I am merely separating the body from the mind here."

Dave you cannot separate the body from the mind! Have you not read that "the body without the spirit is dead?"
!

You seem pretty mind set in ways that are opinionated about rather philosophical ideas like the mnid/body relationship, so I am just stating my own opinionated and psycholgoically set prespective right back, but not as an argument.

The spirit without the body is dead too, isn't?
Some people have been known to lose the spirit to live, and their body gave out.

The real matter you must explain concerns the immortality of the body, as a requirement for a god.
Immortality is the defining requirement for a god.
Gods don't die, because that is why we call them Gods.

In the case of Jesus, dying as a mere son-of-man, a mortal, makes sense only if we understand that, Elijah, the son-of-God, had left the body of Jesus on the mount, during the transfiguration.
They coudn't kill Elijah.

He was the son-of God.
He hadbeen in heaven with God for 800 years before 32AD.
It was Elijah who came down as a dove at the baptism and alighted upn te shoukder of Jesus, indwelling him until the Cross.

It was Elijah Jesus called for from the Cross and queried him about foresakening him to death.

It was Elijah and Moses at the tomb who had raised up the dead body of Jesus.

 

[keypurr]

Dave I think your idea that "Jesus was the bodily son-of-man" is questionable. But I am open.

Jesus was/is "the Son of man" however I find your terminology "Jesus was the bodily son-of-man" most confusing. The more especially so because you also say that "I am merely separating the body from the mind here."

Dave you cannot separate the body from the mind! Have you not read that "the body without the spirit is dead?" "Out of body experiences are illusions!" The person is hallucinating that is all.

Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The Son of man was "dust" animated by "spirit" the same as we are for Eccl.12:7 says: "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

When Jesus commended his spirit to his Father - he died. For Luke 23:46 says: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost." (Luke 23:4)

So I don't accept your idea of: "separating the body from the mind."

However I can agree with this statement of your: "But his spirit of mind was that Holy state of mind that envision Truth and refutes the lies."

For Eph.4:23-24 says: "And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."



If I am misunderstanding you in anything, please explain.

Thankyou,


Read!

I disagree somewhat. True the body needs the spirit for life. But I see that demons (spirits) can enter bodies so why could not a holy Christ spirit enter a body? I think that Jesus had his own spirit as well as the express image spirit in him. This is how God spoke through him. I realize that i'm applying human logic to scripture, but why would it not be possible?

Peace friend.

 

[dave3712]

I disagree somewhat. True the body needs the spirit for life. But I see that demons (spirits) can enter bodies so why could not a holy Christ spirit enter a body? I think that Jesus had his own spirit as well as the express image spirit in him. This is how God spoke through him. I realize that i'm applying human logic to scripture, but why would it not be possible?

Peace friend.

Yes, i wanted to add what you say here but reserved it in the name of brevity.

Jesus had a soirit in the days when he came eating and drinking, a wine bibber and a glutton.
When he was indwelled by The Elijah whom had come back at the moment of baptism by John, the Holy Spirit possessed Jesus and over rode the other mentalies which would have normally controlled his behavior and thoughts.

In fact, it was exactly those more cardinal and Freudian spirits of mind that Christ thereafter cast out of people, and in many case, replaced withthe same spirit of Truth, albeit for a short moment, as Christ himself was experiencing.

 

[keypurr]

Yes, i wanted to add what you say here but reserved it in the name of brevity.

Jesus had a soirit in the days when he came eating and drinking, a wine bibber and a glutton.
When he was indwelled by The Elijah whom had come back at the moment of baptism by John, the Holy Spirit possessed Jesus and over rode the other mentalies which would have normally controlled his behavior and thoughts.

In fact, it was exactly those more cardinal and Freudian spirits of mind that Christ thereafter cast out of people, and in many case, replaced withthe same spirit of Truth, albeit for a short moment, as Christ himself was experiencing.

There has to be different words that have been translated as spirit.
One kind gives life and one controls the mind. This is when I wish I knew Hebrew and Greek.