I don't follow what you are saying.
What is the express image of God?
- Thread starter keypurr
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keypurr
Well-known member
The father is not the son, the son is not the Father.
Mar 5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
If the Father is the Most High God, and Jesus is his son, what is Jesus? God? a god? Questions ....
Christ is the express image of the father, this spirit had the fullness of the father, he is a form of God. If his is an image of god, he can not be God. But he can be a form or type of God. For we have a "most holy God" which means that there is more than one God, or the scriptures are wrong.
In Hebrews 1, God calls his image Oh God.
Paul says we have one God and one Lord. Our Lord is a form of God.
Peace
keypurr
Well-known member
My slyness comes from the spirit that is in me Totton.
Dave,
I have given my answers to your philosophical ideas.
The spirit without the body is dead too, isn't?
Answer No! "...the spirit shall return unto God who gave it" (Eccles.12:7)
Some people have been known to lose the spirit to live, and their body gave out.
Answer No! During the Korean Warome American POW's lost the WILL to live - it was known as Give-up-itis (Read abot it at http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-05-27-korean-war-pow-buried_n.htm
The real matter you must explain concerns the immortality of the body, as a requirement for a god.
Immortality is the defining requirement for a god.
Gods don't die, because that is why we call them Gods.
Answer The god of this age (2 Cor.4:4) is regarded to be the devil who is cast into the lake of fire (Rev.20:10) . The lake of fire is the second death. (Rev.20:14)
In the case of Jesus, dying as a mere son-of-man, a mortal, makes sense only if we understand that, Elijah, the son-of-God, had left the body of Jesus on the mount, during the transfiguration.
Answer The appearance of Moses and Elijah was a VISION.
Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the VISION to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
They coudn't kill Elijah.
He was the son-of God.
He had been in heaven with God for 800 years before 32AD.
Answer God tells us through scripture in John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. Elijah was taken up into the air, the atmosphere of this very planet earth and about 20 years later wrote a letter to King Jehoram in 2 Chron.21:12. Read about it at: http://www.truthontheweb.org/elijah.htm
It was Elijah who came down as a dove at the baptism and alighted upn te shoukder of Jesus, indwelling him until the Cross.
Where is your scripture?
It was Elijah Jesus called for from the Cross and queried him about foresakening him to death.
Answer Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
It was Elijah and Moses at the tomb who had raised up the dead body of Jesus. Where is your scripture?
Read!
You said it.
I agree with the logic.
What confuses people about the Trinitt is trhat they just can not stop anthropomorphuzing the concepts of an ever unfolding Almighty Reality and it correspondence with the Ideal of Truth.
They still try to think of their God as a person.
Though they will even accept the statement that God is a spirit, because that is what scripture specifically states, the will not apply th meaning of spirit to the matter.
God is a spirit, like a thought the enters one's mind.
They can not separate this from the body of the person within whom that thought resides.
They laugh when they say, "The devil made me do it," but that is exactly the case.
The devil is a spirit, one associated with their Freudian comoonents.
That spirit can gain infkuence over them and dominate the way they think.
Then, from that set mentality which resides inside their mind, the devil will have been the responsible factor for their actions thereafter:
Hi Mr Read,
I appreciate your considerate and polite responses very much.
I would like to respond to this set of issue separately at first, since this is the basis for stating that Jesus was a man but that Spirit in him is our God and his.
The verse you recommended to me seems to clearly support what I say about the Devil, dominating our mind, while the verse also confirms that Truth is the ideal we call the son-of-God.
2 Corinthians 4:4
Amplified Bible (AMP)
4 For the god of this world (the devil) has blinded the unbelievers’ minds [that they should not discern the truth], preventing them from seeing the illuminating light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ (the Truth), Who is the (immaterial, weightless, abstract) Image and Likeness of God.
That "all men have the power to become the sons of God" supports the idea that same spirit which indwelled Jesus can do so in us.
That is the teaching of the Church, that we can accept Christ.
Christ can become the a personal relationship with us because Christ is a mentality.
It is this mentality that we can take on even as millions of others at the same time do likewise.
The mentality is a concept, then.
The menality is a "body" of thought, but not matrial or phtsical or concrete in itself.
It is a vision in, and of, our mind.
Basically, I am saying Jesus died onthe cross which could never happen to a real God by definition.
The spirit of Elijah who had left the mind of Jesus, and had returned to the company of Moses, retruned to the Tomb where the dead body of Jesus lay.
They were still there when Mary came, (John 20:12), after having raised the son-of-man from the dead.
I believe your words are false.
Hi keypurr,
You believe:
and you give this as part of your evidence:
Do you realize that you are paying attention to the voices of demons found in that scripture. Do you wonder whether or not demons understood the plans of God any more than men. I've read once (somewhere - can't remember verse) that angels watch men on earth to learn about the secret plans of God.
The words of the demons in Mar 5:7 are not the end all to truth. Listen to God the Father and Jesus.
Isaiah 43:11
John 10:30, 38
John 12:44, 45
Johhn 13:13
And here is an OT passages of which you may never have studied.
Genesis 15:1 (The Lord God is speaking)
After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision saying, "Fear not, Abram: I AM thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward."
Abram knew that this shield and great reward included an heir... so Abram immediately questioned:
Genesis 15:2
And Abram said, "Lord God, whiat wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?"
Genesis 15:4 (And God explained about a promised son to come from Abram's own line reproduction.)
And, behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This shall not be your heir; but HE that shall come forth out of your own bowels shall be thine heir."
So, I ask: Who was the ultimate promised great reward in the form of a son that was to come through Isaac that would bring many sons unto Abraham?
ANS: It was to be the promises Messiah
According to Genesis 15:1 The LORD God (I AM) said that HE was the "exceeding great reward" promised to Abram.
If you accept Jesus as the fulfillment of the PROMISED SON that was to come into the world through the lineage of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob ... to be our Lord Jesus... and if you believe scripture ... then you must realize that these passages also reveal that The LORD God is our LORD Jesus ... Emmanuel among men.
You also wrote:
One more time:
There is ONE invisible spiritual God ... who created an image for his personal use. The ONE God literally manifested his presence visually unto men and angels as the presence of the Father in OT times. Then the ONE God literally manifested his presence visually unto men and angels and demons as the presence of the Son in NT times. HE had John the Baptist to introduce his identity to us by calling him the WORD of God, who was God and was with God all along."
God came as his own Son ... as the Savior. Isaiah 43:11.
Also notice within Genesis 15:1,2,4 that it was literally THE WORD of God that came to Abram and said unto Abram, "I AM your exceeding great reward."
Keypurr, you wrote:
When ever you read about the image of God or the image of the Father ... then you need to begin to include in your thinking the logical idea that IMAGE means a form that someone can SEE.
Why, people SAW JESUS's form/image when he walked upon the earth ...
And Jesus revealed that men in the past had heard the voice of the Father and SEEN HIS SHAPE. It was just the religious leaders of his day that were clueless. John 5:37
So, why didn't these NT men know who Jesus was?
They had never had the privilege of seeing the Father's shape nor hearing HIS voice... nor did they have his word abiding in them. John 5:38
so, what is so difficult about understanding the spelled-out facts - that the invisible God had a visible image and a audible voice ... and that God used them both? With his WORD/voice HE created everything that is ... and then he sent HIS VOICE/word into the world bearing an image of flesh ... who is our LORD Jesus ... Emmanuel among us.
Isaiah 43:11
You believe:
and you give this as part of your evidence:
Do you realize that you are paying attention to the voices of demons found in that scripture. Do you wonder whether or not demons understood the plans of God any more than men. I've read once (somewhere - can't remember verse) that angels watch men on earth to learn about the secret plans of God.
The words of the demons in Mar 5:7 are not the end all to truth. Listen to God the Father and Jesus.
Isaiah 43:11
John 10:30, 38
John 12:44, 45
Johhn 13:13
And here is an OT passages of which you may never have studied.
Genesis 15:1 (The Lord God is speaking)
After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision saying, "Fear not, Abram: I AM thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward."
Abram knew that this shield and great reward included an heir... so Abram immediately questioned:
Genesis 15:2
And Abram said, "Lord God, whiat wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?"
Genesis 15:4 (And God explained about a promised son to come from Abram's own line reproduction.)
And, behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This shall not be your heir; but HE that shall come forth out of your own bowels shall be thine heir."
So, I ask: Who was the ultimate promised great reward in the form of a son that was to come through Isaac that would bring many sons unto Abraham?
ANS: It was to be the promises Messiah
According to Genesis 15:1 The LORD God (I AM) said that HE was the "exceeding great reward" promised to Abram.
If you accept Jesus as the fulfillment of the PROMISED SON that was to come into the world through the lineage of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob ... to be our Lord Jesus... and if you believe scripture ... then you must realize that these passages also reveal that The LORD God is our LORD Jesus ... Emmanuel among men.
You also wrote:
One more time:
There is ONE invisible spiritual God ... who created an image for his personal use. The ONE God literally manifested his presence visually unto men and angels as the presence of the Father in OT times. Then the ONE God literally manifested his presence visually unto men and angels and demons as the presence of the Son in NT times. HE had John the Baptist to introduce his identity to us by calling him the WORD of God, who was God and was with God all along."
God came as his own Son ... as the Savior. Isaiah 43:11.
Also notice within Genesis 15:1,2,4 that it was literally THE WORD of God that came to Abram and said unto Abram, "I AM your exceeding great reward."
Keypurr, you wrote:
When ever you read about the image of God or the image of the Father ... then you need to begin to include in your thinking the logical idea that IMAGE means a form that someone can SEE.
Why, people SAW JESUS's form/image when he walked upon the earth ...
And Jesus revealed that men in the past had heard the voice of the Father and SEEN HIS SHAPE. It was just the religious leaders of his day that were clueless. John 5:37
So, why didn't these NT men know who Jesus was?
They had never had the privilege of seeing the Father's shape nor hearing HIS voice... nor did they have his word abiding in them. John 5:38
so, what is so difficult about understanding the spelled-out facts - that the invisible God had a visible image and a audible voice ... and that God used them both? With his WORD/voice HE created everything that is ... and then he sent HIS VOICE/word into the world bearing an image of flesh ... who is our LORD Jesus ... Emmanuel among us.
Isaiah 43:11
keypurr
Well-known member
No friend, the image of God is a spirit like God is. You cannot see it. This image was filled with the person of the Father and the power of the Father. The only difference is one is a creation of the other. The Father created this image. Now the Father was no longer alone, he had a spiritual son. Christ is firstborn of all creatures. He was made first and higher than any other created being. God, through his son Christ, created all things.
Peace
Wrong friend.
Isaiah 43
10 “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
11 I, even I, am the Lord,
And besides Me there is no savior.
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
image, substance and form.........
image, substance and form.........
Semantics.
An 'image' is a 'representation' of someone or something however it is reflected, or by whatever substance it is made out of, if you choose to get 'techinical' over it,....but in any or all cases,....an 'image' is something that arises in consciousness to be recognized, consisting of some 'definitive form'. See...now matter how you describe, articulate or qualify how 'Jesus' is the 'express image' of 'God'....you come back to semantics, how one defines terms...further coloured by one's own doctrinal bias or philosophical preference. Back to 'point of view'.
Of course I bring this up, only for a more critical 'smack' to our standard assumptions.
All personalities, forms, images, creations emerge from One Source, a matrix of Consciousness and Energy, a womb of primordial substance, which we call 'God', so that Jesus being 'of' God...is naturally in substance and form.... an 'image' of Deity just as Man is, since Jesus is both Son of Man & Son of God in archetypal form, function and potential. In all these purviews...he is always a 'Son', the progeny or offspring of an eternal Ancestor...the Universal Father (The One Original Presence). You can further put your own Christological trimmings on the cake and eat it too.
If Jesus helps you to see 'God', then good and well, but splitting hairs over how Jesus is seperate from or like 'God' is a dovetail into metaphysics and language, while it may be useful, it can also complicate matters and get into trifles that are unnecessary, petty or unprofitable. Dialogue and debate can be enjoyable, constructive and thought-provoking, but after awhile....the 'hamster wheel' comes to an exhaustion point.
pj
image, substance and form.........
Semantics.
An 'image' is a 'representation' of someone or something however it is reflected, or by whatever substance it is made out of, if you choose to get 'techinical' over it,....but in any or all cases,....an 'image' is something that arises in consciousness to be recognized, consisting of some 'definitive form'. See...now matter how you describe, articulate or qualify how 'Jesus' is the 'express image' of 'God'....you come back to semantics, how one defines terms...further coloured by one's own doctrinal bias or philosophical preference. Back to 'point of view'.
Of course I bring this up, only for a more critical 'smack' to our standard assumptions.
All personalities, forms, images, creations emerge from One Source, a matrix of Consciousness and Energy, a womb of primordial substance, which we call 'God', so that Jesus being 'of' God...is naturally in substance and form.... an 'image' of Deity just as Man is, since Jesus is both Son of Man & Son of God in archetypal form, function and potential. In all these purviews...he is always a 'Son', the progeny or offspring of an eternal Ancestor...the Universal Father (The One Original Presence). You can further put your own Christological trimmings on the cake and eat it too.
If Jesus helps you to see 'God', then good and well, but splitting hairs over how Jesus is seperate from or like 'God' is a dovetail into metaphysics and language, while it may be useful, it can also complicate matters and get into trifles that are unnecessary, petty or unprofitable. Dialogue and debate can be enjoyable, constructive and thought-provoking, but after awhile....the 'hamster wheel' comes to an exhaustion point.
pj
My words sum to an explanation of the story which in just a perspective.
You may have another iudea concerning whohese two angels might be.
I would probablynthink you were wrong.
In support of my own interpeartion I equate these two to Moses and Elijah who we saw travelling together right after the Transfiguration.
It would seem appropriate in any case, that these two WOULD attednd tehe greatest moment in Judaism, the resurrection.
(I mean, we KNOW they were in town. it seems reasonable they would have shown up.)
I know there is a difference between an angel and a man.
What is te difference and why is this important to our discussion????
Moses and Elijah are not angels, but men.
Psalm 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Moses died.
In the resurrection we are like angels:
30 For in the resurrected state neither do [men] marry nor are [women] given in marriage, but they are like the angels in heaven.
elisabeth e
New member
"Like angels" is different than "are angels."
Please show me just how you explain away this OT truth in:
Exodus 24:9,10,11,12
BTW, the KJV states ... that they saw "the body of heaven in HIS clearness."
How other versions erase the "HIS clear appearing" phrase from this text and spins it as to say that it was the sapphire stone under HIS feet that was clearly seen ... I'll never understand!
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