What is the express image of God?

[dave3712]

dave3712
This is the perfect verse o understand what happened at te transfiguration.

Phil 2:6-8, "...although (Jesus), EXISTED IN THE FORM OF GOD, (morphing into the image of almighty reality as the personified Truth), He did not regard (Truth as) equality with God, (i.e., The Almighty Reality), a thing to be grasped (in that, one is but the mental image of the other),...


.... but EMPTIED Himself, (in a Ritual of Kenosis that did portray the evacuating of noxious and defiling effects leaving an ascetic form of behavior accompanied with austerities), taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of MEN.
And being found in appearance as a man, He HUMBLED Himself by becoming obedient to the point of DEATH, even death on a cross.
///


It is difficult for me to understand you.

.

It is difficult for people who have a psychologically set mind based upon the social or religious paradigm that they were raised in.
These people can not hear nor see things differently.

The tend to oppose ideas even irrationally, if need be.
Any answer back to a perplexing argument against the things they already believe is enough to allow them to continue in r=error.

The whole gospel is about that.
The whole of Israel, especially the Pharisees who insisted their own iunterpretation found Jesus wanting opposed what ever Christ said.

One must think oputside the box.
One ought be encouraged to think differently after 2000 years of arguing with the Jews, and not converting them even yet.



http://mb-soft.com/believe/txn/kenosis.htm

Rituals of Kenosis, or emptying; the other, as rituals of Plerosis, or filling.
Rituals of Kenosis portray the evacuating of the meaning of time as it approaches the end of a cycle. The wearing down of time at this moment produces noxious and defiling effects, and thus the appropriate response is an ascetic form of behavior accompanied with austerities.

In the rituals of Plerosis, the filling of time or the beginning again of the new time, dramas of excess and overabundance of power are portrayed in the rituals. Specific dramatic roles in these rituals imitate the power of deities in bringing about the renewal of the time of the cosmos. The interpenetration of the human imitation and cooperation with the deeds of the myth creates the dramatic character of the rituals.


Jesus "took on" the human form.
It was part of the kenosis, his emptying of himself.
Human form did not suddenly become the "image of God."

A key passage on this event is Philippians 2:6-7 (comments in [ ] are mine):

Philippians 2:6 who, [Christ], though he was in the form [Gk morphE] of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited,

Philippians 2:7 but emptied [Gk keno, from which English "kenosis" is derived] himself, taking the form of a slave (as Jesus, no longer The Christ), being born in human likeness [Gk homoiOma].
And being found in human form [Gk schEma], (returned to the son-of-man, again)

 

[Jacob]

It is difficult for people who have a psychologically set mind based upon the social or religious paradigm that they were raised in.
These people can not hear nor see things differently.

The tend to oppose ideas even irrationally, if need be.
Any answer back to a perplexing argument against the things they already believe is enough to allow them to continue in r=error.

The whole gospel is about that.
The whole of Israel, especially the Pharisees who insisted their own iunterpretation found Jesus wanting opposed what ever Christ said.

One must think oputside the box.
One ought be encouraged to think differently after 2000 years of arguing with the Jews, and not converting them even yet.



http://mb-soft.com/believe/txn/kenosis.htm

Rituals of Kenosis, or emptying; the other, as rituals of Plerosis, or filling.
Rituals of Kenosis portray the evacuating of the meaning of time as it approaches the end of a cycle. The wearing down of time at this moment produces noxious and defiling effects, and thus the appropriate response is an ascetic form of behavior accompanied with austerities.

In the rituals of Plerosis, the filling of time or the beginning again of the new time, dramas of excess and overabundance of power are portrayed in the rituals. Specific dramatic roles in these rituals imitate the power of deities in bringing about the renewal of the time of the cosmos. The interpenetration of the human imitation and cooperation with the deeds of the myth creates the dramatic character of the rituals.


Jesus "took on" the human form.
It was part of the kenosis, his emptying of himself.
Human form did not suddenly become the "image of God."

A key passage on this event is Philippians 2:6-7 (comments in [ ] are mine):

Philippians 2:6 who, [Christ], though he was in the form [Gk morphE] of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited,

Philippians 2:7 but emptied [Gk keno, from which English "kenosis" is derived] himself, taking the form of a slave (as Jesus, no longer The Christ), being born in human likeness [Gk homoiOma].
And being found in human form [Gk schEma], (returned to the son-of-man, again)

I'm not sure what you are saying.

I believe Jesus was born a human (man/baby). Not that Jesus became a human. As a man, Jesus did not regard equality something to be grasped, even though He existed in the form of God. But He emptied Himself, a servant to those around Him and to us.

 

[keypurr]

I'm not sure what you are saying.

I believe Jesus was born a human (man/baby). Not that Jesus became a human. As a man, Jesus did not regard equality something to be grasped, even though He existed in the form of God. But He emptied Himself, a servant to those around Him and to us.

He speaks more of the mind of Jesus and the spirit that spoke through him. Jesus was a human in all ways, but the spirit in him was with God before the worlds were created. We must see that Christ is much more than a man. Man was created higher than other creatures by giving it more intellgents and the ability to reason to a high degree. Wisdom and power is not in the body but in the mind.

 

[Jacob]

He speaks more of the mind of Jesus and the spirit that spoke through him. Jesus was a human in all ways, but the spirit in him was with God before the worlds were created. We must see that Christ is much more than a man. Man was created higher than other creatures by giving it more intellgents and the ability to reason to a high degree. Wisdom and power is not in the body but in the mind.

I remember from John 1 that the word was with God and the word was God.

I don't understand if you are getting "spirit" out of that.

 

[keypurr]

I remember from John 1 that the word was with God and the word was God.

I don't understand if you are getting "spirit" out of that.

I think the logos most likely is the express image of God, Christ.

Christ is a spirit like his God is. Christ is more than a man. It is God's greatest creation.

In the beginning was the logos. Christ was in the beginning, God created all through him.
The logos was with God. Christ was with God, before cretion Christ was the only one with God
The logos was God. Christ is a god, form of god. Yet he has a God. He tells us that his father is the only true God.

Logic tells us that there are two gods mentioned in the Bible.
The most high God is the Father. Now if there is a most high there has to be lesser god. Christ is that lesser god, he is a creation.

Peace friend

 

[Jacob]

I think the logos most likely is the express image of God, Christ.

Christ is a spirit like his God is. Christ is more than a man. It is God's greatest creation.

In the beginning was the logos. Christ was in the beginning, God created all through him.
The logos was with God. Christ was with God, before cretion Christ was the only one with God
The logos was God. Christ is a god, form of god. Yet he has a God. He tells us that his father is the only true God.

Logic tells us that there are two gods mentioned in the Bible.
The most high God is the Father. Now if there is a most high there has to be lesser god. Christ is that lesser god, he is a creation.

Peace friend

What evidence would you submit from the Bible of a Christ in scripture before Jesus?

 

[keypurr]

What evidence would you submit from the Bible of a Christ in scripture before Jesus?

How about Hebrews 1 or Colossiians 1' if God used Christ to create the world, he had to be before Jesus. Christ is a spirit, like God. Christ is much more than a man.

 

[dave3712]

Jesus "took on" the human form.
It was part of the kenosis, his emptying of himself.
Human form did not suddenly become the "image of God."

A key passage on this event is Philippians 2:6-7 (comments in [ ] are mine):

Philippians 2:6 who, [Christ], though he was in the form [Gk morphE] of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited,

Philippians 2:7 but emptied [Gk keno, from which English "kenosis" is derived] himself, taking the form of a slave (as Jesus, no longer The Christ), being born in human likeness [Gk homoiOma].
And being found in human form [Gk schEma], (returned to the son-of-man, again)


///


I'm not sure what you are saying.

I believe Jesus was born a human (man/baby). Not that Jesus became a human. As a man, Jesus did not regard equality something to be grasped, even though He existed in the form of God. But He emptied Himself, a servant to those around Him and to us.

Yes, that was a little confusing since it referred to the Transfihuration, when The Christ left Jesus who then had taken on his initial human form.

What I am saying must be seen as both the taking on of the spiritual form at his baptism and the return to his human form again at the transfiguration, just before he died at the cross.

God, the previous State before the Transfiguration, had left and certainly, by definition, God can not die, since god's are immortal.

 

[Jacob]

How about Hebrews 1 or Colossiians 1' if God used Christ to create the world, he had to be before Jesus. Christ is a spirit, like God. Christ is much more than a man.

Which verses are you looking at in Hebrews 1 and Colossians 1? The word "Christ" appears in Colossians 1, but not in Hebrews 1.

You are saying "God used Christ to create the world." You say that because of this, Christ "had to be before Jesus".

You also say, "Christ is a spirit, like God." Did we say that the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ refer to the same thing? This remains to be shown/proven.

And you say, "Christ is much more than a man." I believe Jesus to be the only begotten Son of God.

 

[Ps82]

Hi keypurr
Remember me. We've discussed this before.
You wrote:

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:


Who or What is this EXPRESS image of God?

Some great scripture BTW.

Then you drew some conclusions, which I would like to address one by one:

1. God is a spirit, so his image would be a spirit.

If you mean by saying that his "image would be a spirit" that the image would be invisible ... well, wrong. An image is something that can be seen. You are correct if you are meaning that his visible presence is "more spiritual" in nature than our fleshly presence. The OT called IT a "body of heaven in HIS clearness." IOW, the correct conclusion is that God has an image that he created before the world was ... being the first born of all creature, which is super-natural, ... "Angelic" is another good word that comes to mind when describing a super-natural bodily form.

You concluded:

2. This is God's firstborn of every creature, a creation.

Oh YES. God created a visible presence for his use ... IT is first mentioned in Gen. 1:26-27 where is was called "image." IOW, a visible presence.

You wrote:

3. This spirit has deity for it has the fullness of the father.

I would express the same thing this way: This super-natural bodily form has associated with IT the fulness of the Father.

I just don't believe you can put an infinite, eternal, all-powerful, omni-everything invisible God inside a finite body box. But, God can create a body ... impart unto it life ... and use it to represent himself visually within his own creation for men to see.

You said:

4. This spirit was with God before the creation, creation was done through this spirit.

I'd write this: This especially created living visible bodily form was created before the world was. We first read about God working through his bodily conduit on earth is found in Genesis 2... on the day when the LORD God worked to create a bodily form for Adam.,, etc.

You say:

5. This spirit is a form of God

I'd agree this way:
This heavenly body is a form that represents ALL of God manifested in heaven ... and on earth ... as Emmanuel (God among us.)

You asked:

I use the term Christ spirit to discribe this image.

What do YOU think it is?

My favorite topic for years.
God was able to manifest his living super-natural body in times of old ... but during the time of the Messiah ... God was able to manifest his same image again ... but this time it brought IT into the world through the natural doorway of woman's womb and of natural flesh ... which had a measure of life ... but which could also die for a purpose.

Christ, the WORD, told us the truth about the Father and himself and this image in OT times.
It is written in John 17:4,5
I(Lord Jesus) have glorified YOU (God who appeared in times past) on the earth: I have finished the work which YOU (God) gavest me to do.
And now, O (Super-natural) Father, glorify YOU me with YOUR own self with the glory which I had with YOU before the world was.

IOW, John 1:1 is true:
In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was WITH GOD, and the WORD WAS GOD.

And the manifested WORD of God shared the glorious presence with the Father before the world was.

When anyone saw the "body of heaven" in the OT ... IT represent the Father, of course, ... but the identity of the WORD was kept secret hidden within the GLORY. I'd say: When anyone saw the heavenly presence of the Father, then they had also seen the future image of the Son of flesh.

Very much like what Jesus said in his day:
When you have SEEN ME (in flesh), then you have SEEN the (presence of the) Father.

 

[unknown]

I see Christ as a copy of the Father. It was given the fullness of the Father, in other words, it is a God or form of God. God is a spirit so his image is a spirit. There is one true God, the Father, and one Lord, Christ.

Reading the entire thread is well worth you time friend. Its a theory that was given to me this spring. I believe it as truth.

Thank you for the invitation but I will pass on this discussion.

Best Wishes....

 

[dave3712]

How about Hebrews 1 or Colossiians 1' if God used Christ to create the world, he had to be before Jesus. Christ is a spirit, like God. Christ is much more than a man.

Wow...

That is a great observation.

Christ was before Abaham, but clearly, Jesus was long after Abraham.
If Jesus, the physical man, was also the spirit f God, Teh Christ, then this could not be.


What you say here makes the point very clearly.

At birth, even we have to define ourselves, as we discover our toes and hands are actually part of us.
As we create in our mind our own self, the Truth forms in our mind about the real world around us, including us.
The Truth, i.e., the Christ, is the image we are forming in our mind.

This is was Jesus said, "Leave the children alone! Allow the little ones to come to Me, and do not forbid or restrain or hinder them, for of such [as these] is the kingdom of heaven composed," Matthew 19:14.

 

[dave3712]

Hi keypurr
Remember me. We've discussed this before.


1) John 1:1 is true:
In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was WITH GOD, and the WORD WAS GOD.

2) And the manifested WORD of God shared the glorious presence with the Father before the world was..

Hmmm,...

2) Your addition of "shared" replacing "with" is unwarranted when we consider that Christ is Truth.
Truth exists with the ever unfolding Reality which father's it, but does no "sharing" at all.


1) John1:1
In the beginning was the Word, (i.e.; Truth: [John 14:6]), and the Word, ([John 14:9], Truth, itself), was (synonymous) with God, (i.e.; the ever unfolding Reality), and the Word, (Truth: [John 14:6]), was (for men, indistinguishable from the ever unfolding Reality), God, (almighty for all men).

2 "He," (Truth, the symbolic Word to come: [Jud 1:3]) was with God, (the ever unfolding Reality), in the beginning, (that is, the initial unfolding of Reality is what as the Creation).

Jn 1:3 ALL (real) THINGS, (phenomenally, i.e.; mentally), came into existence through him, (this concept of Truth), and apart from him, (this ideal of Truth), not even ONE (real) thing came into (actual) existence.

 

[dave3712]

What evidence would you submit from the Bible of a Christ in scripture before Jesus?

John 8:58
Jesus replied, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, before Abraham was born, I AM.

 

[Jacob]

John 8:58
Jesus replied, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, before Abraham was born, I AM.

This verse doesn't answer my question, but I will comment on it as best as I can at this time.

I can see it meaning, that the prophets spoke of the coming of Jesus even before Abraham.

I can see it meaning, that Jesus is God and preexisted.

What I don't see it saying, is that Christ is separate from Jesus.

The verse does not mention Christ. So though it does speak of Jesus, it cannot mean that Christ preexisted Jesus.

 

[keypurr]

Thank you for the invitation but I will pass on this discussion.

Best Wishes....

If you change your mind my hand of friendship is waiting for you.

Peace

 

[keypurr]

Hmmm,...

2) Your addition of "shared" replacing "with" is unwarranted when we consider that Christ is Truth.
Truth exists with the ever unfolding Reality which father's it, but does no "sharing" at all.


1) John1:1
In the beginning was the Word, (i.e.; Truth: [John 14:6]), and the Word, ([John 14:9], Truth, itself), was (synonymous) with God, (i.e.; the ever unfolding Reality), and the Word, (Truth: [John 14:6]), was (for men, indistinguishable from the ever unfolding Reality), God, (almighty for all men).

2 "He," (Truth, the symbolic Word to come: [Jud 1:3]) was with God, (the ever unfolding Reality), in the beginning, (that is, the initial unfolding of Reality is what as the Creation).

Jn 1:3 ALL (real) THINGS, (phenomenally, i.e.; mentally), came into existence through him, (this concept of Truth), and apart from him, (this ideal of Truth), not even ONE (real) thing came into (actual) existence.

Christ, being an express image of God, is the only one who could ever fully understand just how great our God is.

 

[keypurr]

John 8:58
Jesus replied, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, before Abraham was born, I AM.

:cheers:

 

[Ps82]

Hmmm,...

2) Your addition of "shared" replacing "with" is unwarranted when we consider that Christ is Truth.
Truth exists with the ever unfolding Reality which father's it, but does no "sharing" at all.


1) John1:1
In the beginning was the Word, (i.e.; Truth: [John 14:6]), and the Word, ([John 14:9], Truth, itself), was (synonymous) with God, (i.e.; the ever unfolding Reality), and the Word, (Truth: [John 14:6]), was (for men, indistinguishable from the ever unfolding Reality), God, (almighty for all men).

2 "He," (Truth, the symbolic Word to come: [Jud 1:3]) was with God, (the ever unfolding Reality), in the beginning, (that is, the initial unfolding of Reality is what as the Creation).

Jn 1:3 ALL (real) THINGS, (phenomenally, i.e.; mentally), came into existence through him, (this concept of Truth), and apart from him, (this ideal of Truth), not even ONE (real) thing came into (actual) existence.

There is only ONE God. God the Father is God the Son/Savior.
Isaiah 43:11
I (the ONE God), even I am the LORD, beside ME (as the ONE God and as the LORD ) there is no savior.

Our Lord Jesus told us that he and LORD the Father are ONE.
He told us that when anyone had SEEN HIM (the Son of flesh), they had SEEN THE Father.

That is because they are the ONE God, who were both revealed with the same visible bodily form.
God the Father was revealed within creation with a super-natural / body of heaven ... while God the Son was revealed with a natural / body of flesh in his day. But this bodily form was the same image... it was just the essence of which the body was manifested that was different between the Father and the Son.

John the Baptist declared the identity of God the Son to us. We read about what was revealed to us by John the B in John 1:18.

No man at any time hath seen, God, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he (John the B) hath declared him (God the Son)

The time of Jesus was the first time any man had ever seen God manifested as the Son of flesh... until that time God had never revealed himself with flesh!

It is in this way that I say the God the Father ... and God the Son shared the same likeness of a bodily form... After all Jesus explained that they did ... when he said, "When you have SEEN ME ... you HAVE SEEN the Father."

 

[dave3712]

Posted by dave3712
John 8:58
Jesus replied, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, before Abraham was born, I AM.

///

This verse doesn't answer my question, but I will comment on it as best as I can at this time.

I can see it meaning, that the prophets spoke of the coming of Jesus even before Abraham.

I can see it meaning, that Jesus is God and preexisted.

What I don't see it saying, is that Christ is separate from Jesus.

The verse does not mention Christ. So though it does speak of Jesus, it cannot mean that Christ preexisted Jesus.

You seem to bow appreciate the idea that Christ is not actually Jesus, which has been my point.

Jesus, as the son-of-man did not pre-date Abraham, because we know Mary gave birth in 32AD.

But Christ, the Truth, clearly pre-dates that whole of the creation , following in the wake of the Reality that evermore unfolds at the time of the Big Bang Beginning of the heaven and the earth.