What is the express image of God?

[Read]

Fresh eyes

Fresh eyes

Thankyou Keypurr for welcoming me to your thread and for saying that: "I am open for your thoughts."

Firstly let me say that you "walk in the truth" (3 Jn.1:3) saying: "I believe that only the Father is uncreated." For Romans 11:33-36 affirms of God that "all things" are "of him." "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!....For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen."

You say that: "Christ is a creation." Amen, you are a faithful and true witness, affirming that Jesus is: "the beginning of the creation of God" (Rev.3:14).

Now the question of your thread is: "What is the express image of God?" This English phrase "express image" is translated from the Greek CHARAKTER and the only New Testament use of the word is in Hebrews 1:3.

CHARAKTER has been variously translated as "the express image of his person" (KJV), "the exact representation of His being" (Weymouth), "the Emblem of His assumption"(Concordant), to be "stamped with God's own character" (Moffatt), "an exact Impress of his SUBSTANCE" (Diaglott) and "the exact imprint of his nature"(ESV).

However whatsoever translation you prefer (and you have chosen "the express image of God"), you must concede that the expression is limited to one scene only - and that is in the historical setting of Hebrews Chapter 1.

Now since the question of your thread has to do specifically with the unique word CHARAKTER in the first chapter of Hebrews, I must insist that we restrict our argument to the immediate context to which the expression is confined. For the truth is that the word CHARAKTER is not used anywhere else in the whole NT.

It is of vital importance to carefully look at the phrase "the express image of his person" within the context of its singular use. To this end I will use a different translation of the passage, that we may look with fresh eyes at Hebrews Chapter one - the 1903 New Testament in Modern Speech by Richard Francis Weymouth where our phrase in verse 3 is translated "the exact representation of His being."

Here now are the first four verses of Hebrews:
v.1 "God, who in ancient days spoke to our forefathers in many distinct messages and by various methods through the Prophets,
v.2 has at the end of these days spoken to us through a Son, who is the pre-destined Lord of the universe, and through whom He made the Ages.
v.3 He brightly reflects God's glory and is the exact representation of His being, and upholds the universe by His all-powerful word. After securing man's purification from sin He took His seat at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
v.4 having become as far superior to the angels as the Name He possesses by inheritance is more excellent than theirs" (Heb.1:1-4).

At this point I remind you of your declaration that: "I am open for your thoughts." With this in mind I implore you not to try to win an argument with me in support of your own Christology, but rather seek the truth about the phrase we are examining together.

Now read again a summary of the answer I gave to your question "What is the express image of God?"

It was that "The brightness of his glory and the express image of his person is related to the time when Jesus sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high."

To which you objected: "Amen, But he had that brightness before creation, it was restored to him after he paid the price for our sins."

Now using Weymouth's translation of Hebrews 1:1-4 and resorting to no other scripture whatsoever (remembering that the use of CHARAKTER is unique), I want you to try and convince me and the other readers of your thread, that the phrase the exact representation of His being, refers to a time "before creation."

Read!

 

[dave3712]

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:


Who or What is this EXPRESS image of God?

1. God is a spirit, so his image would be a spirit.
2. This is God's firstborn of every creature, a creation.
3. This spirit has deity for it has the fullness of the father.
4. This spirit was with God before the creation, creation was done through this spirit.
5. This spirit is a form of God

I use the term Christ spirit to discribe this image.

What do YOU think it is?

TRUTH.

Christ told you, "Iam the Truth."

Truth is an ideal which men can model inside their spirit-like mind.
Truth is the image of the invisible Reality we discern by making sense from the data of our sensory inputs.


Man HAS managed to form a mental IMAGE of "Father Nature" by understanding of His Laws and creation.



God is all there is, i.e.; Reality itself... the whole external existence beyond our mind is the almighty God to which all life must bow:

...Truth, inside our head, is the Holy Spirit, the image of God, is present inside our mind when our thinking correctly images the TRUTH, or the picture of Reality inside our mind.

 

[dave3712]

The word "Christ" is not in Hebrews 1 (KJV). Neither is the word "spirit" except "spirits" in verse 14 but that is not talking about the Son of God.I believe the Son of God is the express image of God. Not a spirit or a Christ spirit (Hebrews 1). Do you believe the Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit?

No and yes.

We think things which are called "thoughts."
Thoughts are intangible, weightless, vaporous entities which are what spirit means.
There are thougts that are sane, healthy, and correspond with the real world.

These are holy or as that word means, "separated,"... i.e.; from the lies and fantasies men can and do replace the Truth with.

The "spirit of God" is that whole network we try to understand as The Natural Laws that form the ever unfolding Reality which is almighty God.

The difficulty in separatingthese three concepts from one another is the foundation for Trinity, as far as men are concerned.
Man can not tell Truth from Reality, because man uses that Natural Laws he conceives to guide his understanding of the Data in-coming from his senses.

When man constructs the actual IMAGE in his own head, one that corrrsponds one-to-one with what is the Reality, external to himself, he envisions God thru that intermediator, Truth.

At no time can men tell Truth from Reality becaus they utilize the one to imagine the other.

This expalins how Christ, meaning Truth, creates all things andwithout Truth is there nothing created in reality.

 

[Jacob]

I am still learning about this to friend, but lets look at it in Hebrews:

This express image is another God. And if God is a spirit, this has to be a spirit. I see it as the Christ spirit because it has deity and God used it to create the world.

You are creating another God, another spirit, and to cause yourself to continue thinking of a Christ spirit, so that there is a difference between Jesus and Christ. That is how I am seeing what you are doing.

If you are learning about this, does that mean you know what you are talking about from some other source, or that you are still unsure about what you are saying yourself?

 

[Jacob]

He is syaing what he always says that we ought not worship Christ as God.

I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

What I am not sure about is how I should look at the concept of His pre-existence.

I know Jesus was born, and I believe He was born "the Christ".

I don't believe there could have been a Christ spirit that pre-existed that was given to Jesus at His baptism.

 

[Jacob]

No and yes.

We think things which are called "thoughts."
Thoughts are intangible, weightless, vaporous entities which are what spirit means.
There are thougts that are sane, healthy, and correspond with the real world.

These are holy or as that word means, "separated,"... i.e.; from the lies and fantasies men can and do replace the Truth with.

The "spirit of God" is that whole network we try to understand as The Natural Laws that form the ever unfolding Reality which is almighty God.

The difficulty in separatingthese three concepts from one another is the foundation for Trinity, as far as men are concerned.
Man can not tell Truth from Reality, because man uses that Natural Laws he conceives to guide his understanding of the Data in-coming from his senses.

When man constructs the actual IMAGE in his own head, one that corrrsponds one-to-one with what is the Reality, external to himself, he envisions God thru that intermediator, Truth.

At no time can men tell Truth from Reality becaus they utilize the one to imagine the other.

This expalins how Christ, meaning Truth, creates all things andwithout Truth is there nothing created in reality.

Truth does correspond to reality.

But Jesus is not about philosophy and empty deception, so we need to be careful and willing to have our hearts weighed by God and Jesus Christ.

 

[dave3712]

Truth does correspond to reality.

But Jesus is not about philosophy and empty deception, so we need to be careful and willing to have our hearts weighed by God and Jesus Christ.

That's the Truth.


TRINITY:
Our (1) Lord is Truth, in whose (2) Spirit of mind we must commit our lives, in order to face (3) Father Nature, the Almighty Reality, within which we all exist.

 

[dave3712]

I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

What I am not sure about is how I should look at the concept of His pre-existence.

I know Jesus was born, and I believe He was born "the Christ".

I don't believe there could have been a Christ spirit that pre-existed that was given to Jesus at His baptism.

Truth existed before Abraham, before Moses, and before Jesus.

The spirit of Truth came down upon Jesus, a man, and transfigured him into The Christ, (son-of-God).

The Spirit of Truth did come upon Rev Martin Luther King, too.

 

[Bright Raven]

Truth existed before Abraham, before Moses, and before Jesus.

The spirit of Truth came down upon Jesus, a man, and transfigured him into The Christ, (son-of-God).

The Spirit of Truth did come upon Rev Martin Luther King, too.

Unh....................?

 

[Jacob]

That's the Truth.


TRINITY:
Our (1) Lord is Truth, in whose (2) Spirit of mind we must commit our lives, in order to face (3) Father Nature, the Almighty Reality, within which we all exist.

We are not God, even if we have the Spirit of God inside us by faith.

 

[Jacob]

Truth existed before Abraham, before Moses, and before Jesus.

The spirit of Truth came down upon Jesus, a man, and transfigured him into The Christ, (son-of-God).

The Spirit of Truth did come upon Rev Martin Luther King, too.

Was Jesus born the Son of God?

If (someone says) not,

Matthew 6:23 "But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!

(only begotten)

 

[Jacob]

keypurr,

Have you seen this verse? Just came across it so sharing it:

2 Corinthians 1:21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us [is] God,

Untellectual

 

[dave3712]

Originally Posted by dave3712
Truth existed before Abraham, before Moses, and before Jesus.

The spirit of Truth came down upon Jesus, a man, and transfigured him into The Christ, (son-of-God).

The Spirit of Truth did come upon Rev Martin Luther King, too.


///

Unh....................?

?

John 1:12
But as many as received him, (Truth), to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name, (Truth : john 14:6):

 

[unknown]

Who or What is this EXPRESS image of God?

keypurr,
Way back when ('78-'80), I had a photography studio in Long Beach (CA), I called it "Imagery".

The words "express image" mean this (to me), A true image, not one that has had areas of the photo "dodged", "burned in", "cropped" or otherwise manipulated. The first prints are called "proofs" or "contact sheets" and taken directly from the negative (we used to use film in cameras). We laid the exposed and processed film directly on the paper and exposed it to light. It was a positive copy of the negative.

I think that's what was meant by "express image", I know it's not a biblical answer, but really I don't think it's explained in the bible. Maybe something in my words will stir a thought in you. I'm sure you will find what you seek.

An example on TOL would be all those people who add to and take away from the truth (yer on you own naming those), they present a false image of God not the "express image".

 

[keypurr]

*
Nothing can be proven eh?

So after all this time you admit that you do not worship the Father as the one true God....those of us who believe the word knew it for know one knows the Father or has at any time seen His form....the Son who is in the bosom of the Father has revealed Him.

God can only be known through Christ.

I see the ol' "friend" malarky is slipping away and you are becoming your usual angry self.

Totton, can you prove that the Bible is the word of God?

Did you have to learn something about it before you built your faith?

A line of reason must be crossed before a person can accept anything as truth. I crossed that line many years ago. I did not swallow every little thing that told me. I tested it and proved it to be reasonable sound before I took it as truth to build my faith. At 76 I am still open to what God is telling us in his words. I pray that you do not feel that you know it all so that you can not see more of God and his son.

 

[dave3712]

Totton, can you prove that the Bible is the word of God?

Did you have to learn something about it before you built your faith?

A line of reason must be crossed before a person can accept anything as truth. I crossed that line many years ago. I did not swallow every little thing that told me. I tested it and proved it to be reasonable sound before I took it as truth to build my faith. At 76 I am still open to what God is telling us in his words. I pray that you do not feel that you know it all so that you can not see more of God and his son.

Gen. 1:26 And God, (Father Nature, Reality), said, Let us, (i.e., his Natural Laws, together, in pan-en-theistic expression of the Spirit of God: [Gen 1:2]), make man, (through the process of gradual evolution ending in the finished Adam i.e.; Jesus),... Let us ((i.e., his Natural Laws) make man, (as a reflection of Reality, in his mind, able, through Truth, to imminently reflect the "I am" of this existence: [John 14:6]), IN OUR IMAGE, (after the spirit of our orderly panentheistic organization): and let them, (men as the Dominant species on earth to this day), have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.



God is all there is, Reality itself...

... the Holy Spirit is present inside our mind when our thinking images the TRUTH, or the picture of Reality inside our mind.

 

[keypurr]

Thankyou Keypurr for welcoming me to your thread and for saying that: "I am open for your thoughts."

Firstly let me say that you "walk in the truth" (3 Jn.1:3) saying: "I believe that only the Father is uncreated." For Romans 11:33-36 affirms of God that "all things" are "of him." "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!....For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen."

You say that: "Christ is a creation." Amen, you are a faithful and true witness, affirming that Jesus is: "the beginning of the creation of God" (Rev.3:14).

Now the question of your thread is: "What is the express image of God?" This English phrase "express image" is translated from the Greek CHARAKTER and the only New Testament use of the word is in Hebrews 1:3.

CHARAKTER has been variously translated as "the express image of his person" (KJV), "the exact representation of His being" (Weymouth), "the Emblem of His assumption"(Concordant), to be "stamped with God's own character" (Moffatt), "an exact Impress of his SUBSTANCE" (Diaglott) and "the exact imprint of his nature"(ESV).

However whatsoever translation you prefer (and you have chosen "the express image of God"), you must concede that the expression is limited to one scene only - and that is in the historical setting of Hebrews Chapter 1.

Now since the question of your thread has to do specifically with the unique word CHARAKTER in the first chapter of Hebrews, I must insist that we restrict our argument to the immediate context to which the expression is confined. For the truth is that the word CHARAKTER is not used anywhere else in the whole NT.

It is of vital importance to carefully look at the phrase "the express image of his person" within the context of its singular use. To this end I will use a different translation of the passage, that we may look with fresh eyes at Hebrews Chapter one - the 1903 New Testament in Modern Speech by Richard Francis Weymouth where our phrase in verse 3 is translated "the exact representation of His being."

Here now are the first four verses of Hebrews:
v.1 "God, who in ancient days spoke to our forefathers in many distinct messages and by various methods through the Prophets,
v.2 has at the end of these days spoken to us through a Son, who is the pre-destined Lord of the universe, and through whom He made the Ages.
v.3 He brightly reflects God's glory and is the exact representation of His being, and upholds the universe by His all-powerful word. After securing man's purification from sin He took His seat at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
v.4 having become as far superior to the angels as the Name He possesses by inheritance is more excellent than theirs" (Heb.1:1-4).

At this point I remind you of your declaration that: "I am open for your thoughts." With this in mind I implore you not to try to win an argument with me in support of your own Christology, but rather seek the truth about the phrase we are examining together.

Now read again a summary of the answer I gave to your question "What is the express image of God?"

It was that "The brightness of his glory and the express image of his person is related to the time when Jesus sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high."

To which you objected: "Amen, But he had that brightness before creation, it was restored to him after he paid the price for our sins."

Now using Weymouth's translation of Hebrews 1:1-4 and resorting to no other scripture whatsoever (remembering that the use of CHARAKTER is unique), I want you to try and convince me and the other readers of your thread, that the phrase the exact representation of His being, refers to a time "before creation."

Read!

Read, your a thinking person for sure. You want me to show you why I think he was created BEFORE creation itself, I assume yu mean before the world was created.

First, I never base my assumptions on one verse. So let me tell you why I believe that he had it before creation.

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

He had power to create BEFORE the world was created

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power,

This makes him a form of God. It would not be unreasonableto think that he had the power before creation if he used it to create.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Again, combined with Hebrews, this shows he is the image of God, He is also the firstborn of every creature. To my way of thinking it appears that Christ was God's first creation and second he is firstborn. Now I am aware most think that firstborn in this verse means first in rank, I agree, but it also means first born.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

He is the creator for his father. God was pleased that he had his fullness.

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Now that makes me wonder if the father was concerned that it might not have his fullness, or is that God's way of telling us that he created another God?

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

This image, which I see as spirit was IN Christ Jesus.

Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

More words to tell us that Christ (the image spirit) is a form of God.

That is how I came to the conclusions I have, I think they are correct but I am not a person of high education. God had other plans for me in my younger days.

Anyway Mr Read, that is my story. And I am open to your or any ones elses thoughts for this is all new to me. This is something that I think was given to me for a reason.

Peace and God Bless

 

[keypurr]

TRUTH.

Christ told you, "Iam the Truth."

Truth is an ideal which men can model inside their spirit-like mind.
Truth is the image of the invisible Reality we discern by making sense from the data of our sensory inputs.


Man HAS managed to form a mental IMAGE of "Father Nature" by understanding of His Laws and creation.



God is all there is, i.e.; Reality itself... the whole external existence beyond our mind is the almighty God to which all life must bow:

...Truth, inside our head, is the Holy Spirit, the image of God, is present inside our mind when our thinking correctly images the TRUTH, or the picture of Reality inside our mind.

Interesting thoughts friend.

 

[keypurr]

You are creating another God, another spirit, and to cause yourself to continue thinking of a Christ spirit, so that there is a difference between Jesus and Christ. That is how I am seeing what you are doing.

If you are learning about this, does that mean you know what you are talking about from some other source, or that you are still unsure about what you are saying yourself?

Friend these thoughts are new to me, I never have seen these words jump up at me before this year. They go against a lot of things that I had set in my mind. but sometime we have to see things as they are, not as we want them to be.

God seems to have created his express image, a god. YOu can find verses that say that there is only one God or God created the world, but then you see that he created things through his son, who seems to be a God. Then you also see terms like "most high God", that makes you wonder what that is telling you. If there is a "most high God" then there has to be lesser a God. Maybe a created God. Truth will not come to a closed mind that puts limits of what our great God can do friend.

Peace

 

[keypurr]

Unh....................?

Subsitute the word "word" in the place of "thuth" and see what it says.