What is the express image of God?

[WoundedEgo]

REFLECTION

REFLECTION

It does NOT say "reflection." The word means "radiance" or "effulgence." See the op to my thread about this.

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82384

Is the light from a flashlight identical to a flashlight? No. A flashlight could create a billion beams of light.

Get real..

ἀπαύγασμα, ατος, τό (s. αὐγάζω; Heliod. 5, 27, 4 φωτὸς ἀ.; TestAbr A 16 p. 97, 17 [Stone p. 42]; Philo; Wsd 7:26; Tat. 15, 3 τῆς … ὕλης καὶ πονηρίας [of hostile spirits]; Plut. has ἀπαυγασμός Mor. 83d and 934d; PGM 4, 1130 καταύγασμα) act. radiance, effulgence, in the sense of brightness from a source; pass., reflection, i.e. brightness shining back. The mng. cannot always be determined w. certainty. The pass. is prob. to be preferred in Plut. The act. seems preferable for Wsd and Philo (Op. Mundi 146, Spec. Leg. 4, 123, Plant. 50), corresp. to Hesychius: ἀ.=ἡλίου φέγγος. Philo uses the word of the relation of the Logos to God. Christ is described as ἀ. τῆς δόξης radiance of his glory Hb 1:3 (the act. mng. in the Gk. fathers Orig.; Gregory of Nyssa; Theodoret; Chrysostom: φῶς ἐκ φωτός. Likew. Theodore of Mopsu.; Severian of Gabala; Gennadius of Constantinople: KStaab, Pauluskommentare ’33, 201; 346; 421). For this ἀ. τῆς μεγαλωσύνης 1 Cl 36:2.—FDölger, Ac I 1929, 269ff. DELG s.v. αὐγή.



Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed.) (99). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

 

[keypurr]

The Bible NOWHERE says that Jesus was God's first creation. It says that He is the "Firstborn over creation." The word "Firstborn" means "Supreme." John said that He was in the beginnig with God and that ALL things were made by Him and that without Him "NOT ONE THING" was made.

You just woke up, I have been talking about it for about four months.
Christ was God's first creation, not Jesus. Most of the time firstborn means first to be born, it is also used to show rank. In Colossians 1 it means both. He is firstborn of all creatures.

 

[keypurr]

First of all, "express image" is something you get from Kinko's, not from Hebrews. All Hebrews says is that he is the "reflection". Think about the Moon, versus the Sun. The Sun emits the light and the Moon reflects one fifth of that toward the Earth. All the rest is the fantasy of the Trinity-worshipers.

For example, Moses could not behold God's glory, but Peter saw the glory of Jesus just fine.

The actual Koine Greek word does not mean "express image" (whatever the how-do-you-do that might mean), but rather, simply, "reflection".

And more germane to the actual discussion... Hebrew 1 explicitly denies that Jesus is "one substance with the father" since Jesus is merely the "caricature" of his substance!

Trinitarians have been praising the Emperor (Constantine) for his "fine clothes" ever since he first insisted that the Catholic Empire be built on his HOMOousia!

This express image had the fullness of the Father, deity. (col 1)
You won't get that at Kinko's.

 

[Bright Raven]

He was God FIRST creation, the world was created through him. He is firstborn of all creatures. Christ died, God cannot die so they are not of the same substance.

Peace my friend

Absolutely not a creation and the world (His creation) was created through Him.

You see Colossians in an improper context. The truth being that it shows a place of superiority.

Christ died-agreed
God cannot die-agreed

They are not of the same substance-disagree
See the following concerning the Hypostatic Union. http://carm.org/jesus-two-natures

 

[keypurr]

Absolutely not a creation and the world (His creation) was created through Him.

You see Colossians in an improper context. The truth being that it shows a place of superiority.

Christ died-agreed
God cannot die-agreed

They are not of the same substance-disagree
See the following concerning the Hypostatic Union. http://carm.org/jesus-two-natures

You have a right to disagree BR.

I have seen your site before. I have no problem with Jesus being a form of god and man. I understand the two natures of Jesus. But we both know God can not die, so Jesus was not God, he was a form of God, a created form that could die.

Peace

 

[Bright Raven]

I understand the two natures of Jesus. But we both know God can not die, so Jesus was not God, he was a form of God, a created form that could die.

If you understand it, which nature of Jesus died? His God Nature or His Human Nature.

 

[keypurr]

If you understand it, which nature of Jesus died? His God Nature or His Human Nature.

Scripture says that CHRIST DIED. Christ is the godlike spirit that was IN him. Jesus was the Christ of God, he was given that image spirit that I have been trying to explain to you. When Jesus died, this spirit must have died also.

2+2=4

 

[Bright Raven]

Scripture says that CHRIST DIED. Christ is the godlike spirit that was IN him. Jesus was the Christ of God, he was given that image spirit that I have been trying to explain to you. When Jesus died, this spirit must have died also.

2+2=4

You did not answer the question. Hint: It's one or the other.

 

[keypurr]

You did not answer the question. Hint: It's one or the other.

I did answer, BOTH.

You were one who pointed it out when Read posted it. Christ died. Jesus died also. Christ was IN Jesus, Christ lowered himself to be in the form of man. So he could die. God on the other hand could not die, but Christ is the image of God, not God, so he could.

Makes sense to me. Why else would God create an express image of himself and give it his fullness?

We have a awsum God my friend.

 

[WoundedEgo]

KARAKTHR

KARAKTHR

This express image had the fullness of the Father, deity. (col 1)
You won't get that at Kinko's.

The word translated was used of the image of Caesar that appeared on a coin. It was a symbol, not a replication. Think of an "avatar" and you are on track. Now, notice the context...

Heb 1:3 Who being the reflection of his [God's] glory, and avatar of his [God's] person, and bearing all things by the word of his [God's] power, when he [God's son] had by made purification of [his] sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high [God];

So this speaks of Jesus as completely dependent on God for his being, his design and his authority. His position was a promotion from God for his obedience.

As to Colossians, again, note that it at no time suggests that God and Jesus are the same, only that the fulness of "theology" resides in Jesus as a "corpus":

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead [theology] bodily [as a corpus].

In other words, "don't look to philosophy based on worldly principles, instead look to Jesus, because God was pleased to deposit all of his theology in Jesus as a single 'book'"....

As John says:

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [exegeted] him.

 

[Totton Linnet]

If he is the express image of God he would have the same thoughts and feelings, but still would not be what he is the image of.

You can't get it keypurr

He IS the visible form of the invisible God

"He being in the form of God...."

He is one with the Father.

 

[WoundedEgo]

You can't get it keypurr

He IS the visible form of the invisible God

"He being in the form of God...."

He is one with the Father.

Adam was also in the form of God, as are you (assuming you are a male).

 

[Totton Linnet]

Adam was also in the form of God, as are you (assuming you are a male).

God has a willy?

 

[WoundedEgo]

Willy

Willy

God has a willy?

Yes, which is why Adam had one even before God realized that he had failed to provide him a sex partner.

Of course, the angels had not yet left their first estate in sky and descended to pursue the American Dream (two giant kids and a house with A/C and carpeting)...

 

[Letsargue]

Its the way eternal is defined Paul. Eternal does not have to include past. We hope for eternal life also, but we had a start. Christ exsisted before all worlds and creatures, but he himself was the first creation. God explained to you in the books of Colossians and Hebrews how Christ came to be.

Peace Paul

Quit saying ( Peace ) when there is no ( Peace )!!!!!!!

*
That’s your “definition”, and not ((( God’s ))). ((( Read the Book )))!!! – “Eternity”, or that which is “Eternal”, ((( Has “No” Beginning, Or Ending )))!!!!!! – Hebrews 7:3-4 KJV – “To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by (( Interpretation )) - King of Righteousness, (((( and after that also )))) King of Salem, which is, King of Peace; 3- ((( Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life ))); - ((( But made like unto the Son of God; ((( Abideth a Priest -- “Continually” -- )))”. -----//--- That’s God’s “definition” of (( Eternal, or Eternity )) – Maybe not for ((( You )))!! --- (( You have No Argument at all ))!! – God ( Interpreted ) that whole verse as ((( Eternal )))!!! -- ((((( Now prove me wrong ))))) - (( Again ))???????

Paul 083012

 

[keypurr]

The word translated was used of the image of Caesar that appeared on a coin. It was a symbol, not a replication. Think of an "avatar" and you are on track. Now, notice the context...



So this speaks of Jesus as completely dependent on God for his being, his design and his authority. His position was a promotion from God for his obedience.

As to Colossians, again, note that it at no time suggests that God and Jesus are the same, only that the fulness of "theology" resides in Jesus as a "corpus":



In other words, "don't look to philosophy based on worldly principles, instead look to Jesus, because God was pleased to deposit all of his theology in Jesus as a single 'book'"....

As John says:

I suggest you look at the verse that says the Father was pleased that it had his fullness. Then read the verse where it say God created through him. Then go to Hebrews and read chapter 1. God calls him a god. He is said to be the express image of God, not an inprint. And not something you can get at Kinko's.

Keep in mind that I am not a Trin, yet Christ is a form of God. christ is a spirit that was IN Jesus.

 

[keypurr]

You can't get it keypurr

He IS the visible form of the invisible God

"He being in the form of God...."

He is one with the Father.

I understand you Tott, I just do not agree. I think your reading it wrong. So are most folks.

 

[keypurr]

Quit saying ( Peace ) when there is no ( Peace )!!!!!!!

*
That’s your “definition”, and not ((( God’s ))). ((( Read the Book )))!!! – “Eternity”, or that which is “Eternal”, ((( Has “No” Beginning, Or Ending )))!!!!!! – Hebrews 7:3-4 KJV – “To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by (( Interpretation )) - King of Righteousness, (((( and after that also )))) King of Salem, which is, King of Peace; 3- ((( Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life ))); - ((( But made like unto the Son of God; ((( Abideth a Priest -- “Continually” -- )))”. -----//--- That’s God’s “definition” of (( Eternal, or Eternity )) – Maybe not for ((( You )))!! --- (( You have No Argument at all ))!! – God ( Interpreted ) that whole verse as ((( Eternal )))!!! -- ((((( Now prove me wrong ))))) - (( Again ))???????

Paul 083012

I wish you peace Paul for I have peace. If you do not understand that, I suggest you keep on reading the scriptures til you do. God is love, love is only good when you share and display it.

You have your views, I do not agree with all of them.

 

[Totton Linnet]

I understand you Tott, I just do not agree. I think your reading it wrong. So are most folks.

The usual interpretation that I have seen of the term "express image of God" is nearer to your understanding than mine. The tension of the term is in "the express image of the invisible God" between what is invisible and what is visible, He IS what is invisible but now given visibility in a form, more a living Person. This why He is able to say "I and the Father are one" and "he who has seen Me has seen the Father."

 

[WoundedEgo]

Suggestions

Suggestions

I suggest you look at the verse that says the Father was pleased that it had his fullness.

Um, you are twisting the words. There is no verse that says what you are trying to impose on it.

Then read the verse where it say God created through him.

The word translated "created" is KTIZW which means to "establish" as one would "establish a government". This is both what the Greek word means and is also obvious from context. And it is not referring to Gen 1 but rather "to the kingdom of God's dear son".

Then go to Hebrews and read chapter 1. God calls him a god.

The quote in Hebrews was originally written about Solomon, and is not a reference to being almighty God. In the scriptures, God calls men "gods" from time to time:

Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

But Jesus says his claim is more modest... he only claims to be the *son of* God.

He is said to be the express image of God, not an inprint. And not something you can get at Kinko's.

Only because the derelict translators opted to make it say that in the English. Losers.

Keep in mind that I am not a Trin, yet Christ is a form of God. christ is a spirit that was IN Jesus.

As I pointed out before, Adam was a "form" of God, but he tried to "seize" equality with God by eating the fruit, while Jesus, also in the form of God...:

Php 2:6b ...thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Paul was preaching humility, not upending the Shema...