What is the express image of God?

[keypurr]

Keypurr,

You say: "I see your point but I do not agree. No you have not resolved the conflict, in my heart, I wish you did."

The idea of yours expressed on post #376 that "Christ is...the son who God used to create everything", is identical to the teaching of the Watchtower organisation. Did you learn this from Jehovah Witness literature?

I am not a JW, but they are just like any kother faith, sometimes they get it right.

Your conflict therefore is between the belief of Isaiah that "the LORD God made all things alone, by himself" (Isa.44:24) and your own conclusion (or JW dogma)that though "...not God himself...Christ is...the son who God used to create everything (your post #376).

I guess my concerns are verses that say God did this or that and then the NT says Jesus did it for his God.

I agree with you that the Son is not God himself, but do not believe that Christ was involved in the original creation of Genesis but only in the setting up of " thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers" and that after his exaltation at the right hand of God; when these "things were created by him, and for him" (Col.1:16).

It seems to me that you may have been further confused by the conflicting translations of Colossians 1:16, some of which say that "Everything was created BY him" (CEV), while others say that "IN him all things in heaven and on earth were created" (NRSV).

There are a few posters on here that agree with you.

I believe Colossians 1:16 actually says: “For in him [Christ] [not “by” him as mistranslated in some versions] all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created through [not “by” him as mistranslated in some versions] him and for him.”

If your like me, you only understand English so we have to relay on the folks who do the translating. There are more "by" than "in"s, there is also through. John implies that Christ did the creating also.

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The creator is God, the Father. He made everything. He made man and woman. He rested at creation. Jesus came into being when Mary conceived supernaturally. The miraculous conception makes him the Son of God in a special sense (Luke 1:35).

Understand that Jesus was not at the creation of the world, but Christ was. Christ is a spirit friend. The express image of God, who is a spirit. This spirit was IN Jesus, thoes are my thoughts from the NT.

Jesus Christ was the reason for all creation, the occasion for creation, since as the firstborn he is to possess all authority over the universe under God. But God, the Father, the One God (1 Cor. 8:6) is the creator of all things.

Hebrews 3:4 states that: “God is the builder of everything.”

But how did God create, I believe he created THROUGH Christ (not Jesus)

However that may be let us leave Colossians for a moment and consider what Jesus himself said about the beginning creation:

"For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be"(Mark 13:19).

This still does not say that Christ was not God's tool for creation

Keypurr, you do not believe that the Son is God himself, but think that "Christ is...the son who God used to create everything" (your post #376). This idea of yours brings you into conflict with the very statement of Jesus that it was God who created from the beginning.

Keypurr, did Jesus claim to be "the son who God used to create everything" (your post #376), or did he speak about "the beginning of the creation which God created?"(Mk.13:19)

Christ was God's FIRST creation. This took place many yearts before the world exsisted. THe beginning starts at the creation. God himself had no beginning, but his spirit son did.

Your idea that "Christ is...the son who God used to create everything" also implies that Jesus Christ pre-existed his own birth in Bethlehem. This idea of preexistence implies that Christ was higher and more powerful than the angels at creation, which makes a mockery of his " Being made so much better than the angels... when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high" (Heb.1:3-4).

On this subject kindly read an article entitled PREEXISTENCE OR PREEMINENCE? by William M. Wachtel

http://focusonthekingdom.org/articles/colossians.htm

READ!

AMEN friend, Christ is the highest of all creaqtion. Much higher than the angels. Christ is a godlike spirit, a god. According to the NT, he created all for his God, including the Angles. His Father is the only true God, the most high God. That also is in the entier Bible. So I have no problem with considering Christ a god. Jesus was a man, Christ is a spirit, together you have a man with the Christ spirit IN him. Christ could die, for he is a creation, but God cannot. Jesus Christ died for our sins.

Peace friend, lets continue to explore.

 

[keypurr]

Christ always was the Living Temple [dwelling place] of the Living God. Although Christ is the firstborn of creation it is vital to remember that He was created in eternity.....now the human mind cannot comprehend eternity, if we say billions of years ago [like the stoopid evolutionists] it is not eternity.

TOTTON, WE JUST AGREED, Christ is a creation.

Your on the right track at last.

 

[Bright Raven]

TOTTON, WE JUST AGREED, Christ is a creation.

Your on the right track at last.

I don't believe Totten believes that Christ is created. I believe she misworded her response.

 

[keypurr]

Hello , hmmm if i am allowed to post... Image of God ? If talking about the visual image. no one can really guess. He's God ! but basically we should beleive He's like what He is described in devine scripts. and here we go , everyone sees Him according to his adopted Script. God is God just everyone sees Him using his own colored glasses. What matters is we beleive He Exisits. He is the Most Mercyfull .. He is good!

Sure you can post, thats what we are all here for. WELCOME to TOL.

We all see his as we were first taught until we read scripture for ourselves. The most important thing to see about him is his love for mankind. He wants us to love like he does. But we should stilkl study to find out more about him.

Peace

 

[keypurr]

No. The Spirit that moved over the waters was the Holy Spirit, this one;

John 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

The thing you need to do friend is get away from Christ being a created being. Nowhere in scripture is there a place that it specifically says that Christ is created. He is not a created deity. Deity is eternal and cannot die.

In Genesis what does it say? God spoke. Spoke what? The Word. Who created all things; Christ did. Do you see the link between the word and Christ? Think about that for a while.

My mind is not set on that statement about the water, but it is in my thoughts.

 

[Bright Raven]

My mind is not set on that statement about the water, but it is in my thoughts.

Don't let your thoughts get you in trouble.

 

[keypurr]

Yes, in the form of man, He is an image of God like we all are (see Genesis) but as Deity He is God, not an image.

I see a hugh difference between man being in the image of God and the express image of God. The express image has the fullness ofthe Father, deity. And it has to be a spirit for God is a spirit. Christ is a created form of God, this was in Jesus. God sent his son (Christ) to die for us, not himself. God cannot die, but his created son could.

These are all my thoughts from what I see in the NT. They seem to fit scripture quite well. Even John 1.

Peace Angel

 

[keypurr]

Don't let your thoughts get you in trouble.

Your to late friend, why didn't you tell me that before?

 

[Ps82]

Christ always was the Living Temple [dwelling place] of the Living God. Although Christ is the firstborn of creation it is vital to remember that He was created in eternity.....now the human mind cannot comprehend eternity, if we say billions of years ago [like the stoopid evolutionists] it is not eternity.

Read my post 391.

God has stated:
I (the ONE invisible God Almighty), even I am the LORD (the ONE God who appeared as the God of Israel), beside ME (as God Almighty appearing in the form of the LORD) there is no Savior.

This is the definition of The Christ ... The Savior!

Our savior is the ONE God who manifested His own presence within the world through a bodily form, which he named JEHOVAH or (KJV) LORD.
Exodus 6:3 KJV; Exodus 24:8,9,10,11KJV; Exodus 34:5,6,9

It is the bodily form that was created.

In Genesis 2:26,28 IT is called an image.
In Exodus 24:8,9,10,11 IT is called "body of heaven in HIS clearness."
In Colossians 1:15 IT is referred to as the image of the invisible God, ... who was the first born of all creatures.

The spirit of God is the nature of the Christ - the Savior ... The LORD is the bodily form of the Christ - the Savior ... and together the two identified parts form The CHRIST-The Savior.

All of God's invisible power and nature was associated with the bodily form of our savior... because God gave of His spirit unto IT WITHOUT MEASURE... the Father God gave ALL of His nature unto his begotten son our LORD and savior. The bodily form named LORD even only spoke the very words of God.

John 3:34,35
For he (the Savior - Christ) whom God (Almighty) hath sent speaks the words of God: for God giveth NOT the Spirit by measure unto him.
The Father (God Almighty) loveth the Son, and hath given ALL THINGS into his hand.

The created bodily form of our Lord Jesus was associated with ALL of God Almighty's own nature itself!

And this is the promised Christ - Savior.

 

[Ps82]

Hello , hmmm if i am allowed to post... Image of God ? If talking about the visual image. no one can really guess. He's God ! but basically we should beleive He's like what He is described in devine scripts. and here we go , everyone sees Him according to his adopted Script. God is God just everyone sees Him using his own colored glasses. What matters is we beleive He Exisits. He is the Most Mercyfull .. He is good!

Helo Theo,
Glad to see you joining in on this thread.
Yes, God is good ... He alone is Good ... and in Exodus 34:5,6,7,8 is found a quote that tells us how HE describes Himself... in His own words:

God, when speaking to Moses in verses 6-7, gave Moses a list of descriptive words about himself.
5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him (Moses) there, and proclaimed the NAME of The LORD.
6 And the LORD, passed by before him (Moses), and proclaimed, 'The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth.
7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
8 And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshiped.

I've never studied the divine co-existence of God's mercy and forgiveness ... and His visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the fourth generation... but have simply concluded that what we do in these bodies while on earth ... matters ... but that God predestined himself to one day come unto humanity on a mission to be merciful and to forgive.

That DAY when God came to be our merciful forgiving savior was the time of my Lord Jesus.

In the same text we've just read in Exodus 34 where The LORD God passed before Moses and called out His NAME... then Moses made a personal request of the LORD God by asking for this:
And he (Moses) requested, "If now I have found grace in Thy sight, O LORD, let my Lord, I pray thee, go among us; ..."

The My Lord Moses was requesting to go among them in his day ... matches Psalms 110:1 when the Psalmist wrote: The LORD said unto my Lord, "Sit you at my right hand, until I make your enemies your foot stool."

This "My Lord" that the Father God could and did send among the people was the one who became known as "My Lord and savior Jesus the Christ".

When the my Lord Jesus asked the rich ruler: "Why do you call me GOOD teacher? Only God is GOOD."

The rich ruler should have answered: "I call you GOOD teacher, because I understand that you are the ONE and only GOOD God.

Sadly, the rich man did not understand who our / my Lord Jesus really was.
My Lord Jesus, being God and LORD[Isaiah 43:11), held all power to be merciful and forgive sins.

 

[Ps82]

Hi keypurr,
You wrote:

I am just a disagreeable old man today. I believe that the express image of God is a creation, a created spirit. Being a created godlike spirit IT could die. Christ died, God could not...

My emphasis is highlighted in your paragraph.

Yes! the image is a living created creature.

Yes! The image was a super-natural more spirit-like presence... IT was called "a body of heaven ... OR heavenly body in His clearness."
Yes! The created bodily form could die ... at the point when IT was manifested as mortal flesh. Before IT was manifested as mortal flesh ... IT could NOT die.
Yes! The created bodily form we recognized as The manifested Christ of flesh - our Lord Jesus could die BODILY!!!

But the divine nature (God's invisible nature) associated with the fleshly body of the Christ did not die ... ONLY the created BODY died! It was the body that God raised from death and wore back to heaven when He ascended in the eyes of his followers as the risen Lord!!!

You are right!!! God cannot die!!!
Why, even the spirit of God's saved ones do not die when their bodies die physically. Our inner invisible spiritual nature is taken to be with the LORD ... where we appear with him in a body that is awaiting us as the rescued saints. II Corinthians 5:1-11...

The ONE invisible eternal God tasted death upon a cross when the form of His LORD that was manifested of mortal flesh died.

God had to permit his created mortal bodily form to die ... so that he could raise it again ... showing us the example that we would experience in order to follow our Lord into his kingdom in preparation for the bestowing of our glorified eternal bodies.

You also wrote:

... but a created deity can and did. I think this is the same spirit that moved across the face of the waters in Genesis 1. God created through this spirit.

This is the only place I would say: No!

The Christ was not a created deity (little god). The Christ was God seen in a created bodily form manifested the second time of FLESH.

Now this describes the Son of flesh ... who no man had ever seen until John the Baptist told us that he had arrived... John 1:18 KJV

But when it comes to the Father ... the LORD God in Moses's day ... then the created bodily form was not able to die because if was created of a different essence. IT was created of an essence that could/can live within unapproachable light... or within a fiery furnace ...or in the midst of the flames within a bush that seemed to burn without being consumed. God as the Father - could NOT die nor his image ... only God as the Son of manifested mortal flesh could taste death in this world.

You concluded:

Oh dear friend, I have indeed opened a Pandora's box.

No. This is a wonderful topic!

 

[dave3712]

Hello , hmmm if i am allowed to post... Image of God ? If talking about the visual image. no one can really guess. He's God ! but basically we should beleive He's like what He is described in devine scripts. and here we go , everyone sees Him according to his adopted Script. God is God just everyone sees Him using his own colored glasses. What matters is we beleive He Exisits. He is the Most Mercyfull .. He is good!

But if His son is Truth, then logically He must be the corresponding Realities that exist and define Existence.


(John 14:6 "I am the truth,"...

 

[Ps82]

~*~*~

As shared previously, 'God' who is LIGHT can create or reflect any image that his own nature and consciousness can conceive or formulate, which gives rise to the manifold creation, vareity of creatures and all forms existing in the visible realm. All is reflected within the Omni-consciousness of 'God' pointing back to the Source which is the 'I Am', the origin of all substance and form. Jesus points us to worship that Spirit-Presence Alone, which is the Father of all.


pj​

Yes he can ... as thunder and a loud sound of mountains quaking ... or as a still small voice within the wind... as pillars of smoke by day or columns of fire by night ... as a "body of heaven in His clearness" ... which is a super-natural angelic sort of image belonging to God ... BUT there was ONE express image he chose above all others ... and he chose to give that particular visible presence a NAME.
Exodus 6:3 tells us that the particular image that He calls The LORD (KJV) or JEHOVAH is his chosen image used to appear before Abraham etc ... and again to Moses (Exodus 34:5,6,9)

I have found an example where this image named LORD was hidden within the column of fire by night and the pillar of cloud by day.
Exodus 14:1,14,18,19
1 And the LORD spake unto Moses...
14 The LORD shall fight for you ...
18 And the Egyptians shall know that I AM the LORD, when I have gotten ME honor upon Pharaoh, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.
19 And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud (also) went from before their face, and stood behind them.

Do you get the message? ... The super-natural / aka - angelic presence of God was hidden within the cloud ... and when His chosen presence moved the cloud also moved along with IT!!!!

The more excited I get ... the more colorful my posts become. Excuse me.

 

[Ps82]

Yes, in the form of man, He is an image of God like we all are (see Genesis) but as Deity He is God, not an image.

I agree with you and disagree with you in these ways.
Yes, in the form of man, HE is an image of God like we all are... because we were created after God's own image and likeness, which was mentioned in Genesis 1:26,27 KJV

This was the image of God that was the first born of all creatures ... as mentioned in Colossian 1:15.

This was the glorious presence that our Lord Jesus shared with the Father even before the world was ... IT was the visible glory that our Lord wanted to have again after he ascended. John 17:5 KJV

It is the IMAGE that is created ... not the eternal nature of God that was associated with the image. This is how an invisible God became Emmanuel ... or God among men! As the mortal Christ ... the body could die ... but not God.

But no to this part of what you wrote: "as Deity He is God, not an image."

I'm assuming here that by the phrase "as Deity" you are referring to God the Father. You are saying that God the Father could not be seen because he was not a visible presence / an IMAGE.

This is wrong. Here is the truth.
The ONE spiritual God creator is an invisible spirit. No one can see the spirit of God!
BUT ... God chose to manifest His presence within his own creation by creating an IMAGE for his personal use.
IT was the first born of all creatured (Colossians 1:15)
IT was a super-natural bodily form described as "the body of heaven in his clearness" in Exodus 24: 9,10,11,12 KJV.
God used IT to appear to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. (Exodus 6:3 KJV)
God revealed ITS name to Moses. (Exodus 34:5,6,9 KJV)
IT is a living creature that can say what God wants IT to say ... All power is given unto IT ... in fact, ALL of God's spirit is given unto IT ... nothing was given in measures. John 3:34,35 KJV IT represents the ONE and ONLY God; so, God called IT - The LORD, The LORD God - after Himself!
Whenever IT came unto men in dreams and visions then the very "WORD of God" had been uttered through ITS mouth unto men.

Since this super-natural heavenly Angelic form named The LORD (aka - THE angel of the LORD or THE angel of God) was not manifested of mortal flesh ... IT could not die... but could even dwell in unapproachable LIGHT and in places that should kill a mortal human.

It was being in the proximity of the presence and safety of His glorious IMAGE that protected the three men in the fiery furnace so that they were not consumed.
It was his presence seen within the flames that protected the bush that seemed to burn from being consumed. Read for yourself how God appeared AS LORD within the fiery bush ... and Moses, realizing what he had seen, fell to the ground and worshiped the ONE God.

The created presence of the Father could not die ... but the manifested presence of the Son in mortal flesh could die. Colossian 1:13,14,15 KJV

 

[keypurr]

Hi keypurr,
You wrote:


My emphasis is highlighted in your paragraph.

Yes! the image is a living created creature.

Yes! The image was a super-natural more spirit-like presence... IT was called "a body of heaven ... OR heavenly body in His clearness."
Yes! The created bodily form could die ... at the point when IT was manifested as mortal flesh. Before IT was manifested as mortal flesh ... IT could NOT die.
Yes! The created bodily form we recognized as The manifested Christ of flesh - our Lord Jesus could die BODILY!!!

But the divine nature (God's invisible nature) associated with the fleshly body of the Christ did not die ... ONLY the created BODY died! It was the body that God raised from death and wore back to heaven when He ascended in the eyes of his followers as the risen Lord!!!

You are right!!! God cannot die!!!
Why, even the spirit of God's saved ones do not die when their bodies die physically. Our inner invisible spiritual nature is taken to be with the LORD ... where we appear with him in a body that is awaiting us as the rescued saints. II Corinthians 5:1-11...

The ONE invisible eternal God tasted death upon a cross when the form of His LORD that was manifested of mortal flesh died.

God had to permit his created mortal bodily form to die ... so that he could raise it again ... showing us the example that we would experience in order to follow our Lord into his kingdom in preparation for the bestowing of our glorified eternal bodies.

You also wrote:

This is the only place I would say: No!

The Christ was not a created deity (little god). The Christ was God seen in a created bodily form manifested the second time of FLESH.

Yes. but Christ was with God before the creation, All was made through Christ.

Now this describes the Son of flesh ... who no man had ever seen until John the Baptist told us that he had arrived... John 1:18 KJV

But when it comes to the Father ... the LORD God in Moses's day ... then the created bodily form was not able to die because if was created of a different essence. IT was created of an essence that could/can live within unapproachable light... or within a fiery furnace ...or in the midst of the flames within a bush that seemed to burn without being consumed. God as the Father - could NOT die nor his image ... only God as the Son of manifested mortal flesh could taste death in this world.

I think his image could die and did.

You concluded:


No. This is a wonderful topic!

I agree Ps82, thee is really a lot to discuss.

 

[Bright Raven]

Keypurr,

Yes. but Christ was with God before the creation, All was made through Christ.

And if He was with God before creation, in order to be created he would have to have been part of that creation. Christ is an eternal being my friend. Some day you will see it.

 

[keypurr]

Yes, in the form of man, He is an image of God like we all are (see Genesis) but as Deity He is God, not an image.

I thought about this and I disagree, This express image is a god, but it is not THE God. Since he is first born of all creatures he is a creation. Being created he would have a God, the same one we have. That is why he is said to be the son of the most high God. The father was happy that the image had his fullness.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Peace my friend

 

[keypurr]

Keypurr,


And if He was with God before creation, in order to be created he would have to have been part of that creation. Christ is an eternal being my friend. Some day you will see it.

I see it now BR, but even an eternal being had its start, just no ending.

God was alone, no one, just God. Then he created his express image. Now he had a son. The son is devoted to his father. God created THROUGH his son. Christ is eternal for he will never die aain, like us. We also hope to be eternal.

 

[Bright Raven]

I see it now BR, but even an eternal being had its start, just no ending.

God was alone, no one, just God. Then he created his express image. Now he had a son. The son is devoted to his father. God created THROUGH his son. Christ is eternal for he will never die aain, like us. We also hope to be eternal.

From Dictionary.com


e·ter·nal
   [ih-tur-nl] Show IPA
adjective
1.
without beginning or end; lasting forever; always existing ( opposed to temporal): eternal life.
2.
perpetual; ceaseless; endless: eternal quarreling; eternal chatter.
3.
enduring; immutable: eternal principles.

Notice the First definition. without beginning or end.

If you keep this up with me for a couple of more posts, it will be another sleepless night for you.

 

[Read]

I am not a JW, but they are just like any kother faith, sometimes they get it right.



I guess my concerns are verses that say God did this or that and then the NT says Jesus did it for his God.



There are a few posters on here that agree with you.



If your like me, you only understand English so we have to relay on the folks who do the translating. There are more "by" than "in"s, there is also through. John implies that Christ did the creating also.

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.



Understand that Jesus was not at the creation of the world, but Christ was. Christ is a spirit friend. The express image of God, who is a spirit. This spirit was IN Jesus, thoes are my thoughts from the NT.



But how did God create, I believe he created THROUGH Christ (not Jesus)




This still does not say that Christ was not God's tool for creation



Christ was God's FIRST creation. This took place many yearts before the world exsisted. THe beginning starts at the creation. God himself had no beginning, but his spirit son did.



AMEN friend, Christ is the highest of all creaqtion. Much higher than the angels. Christ is a godlike spirit, a god. According to the NT, he created all for his God, including the Angles. His Father is the only true God, the most high God. That also is in the entier Bible. So I have no problem with considering Christ a god. Jesus was a man, Christ is a spirit, together you have a man with the Christ spirit IN him. Christ could die, for he is a creation, but God cannot. Jesus Christ died for our sins.

Peace friend, lets continue to explore.

Keypurr,
There are still some loose ends from my last post, for one of the answers you gave avoided my direct question.

My question concerned Mark 13:19 where Jesus gave all the credit for "the creation" to God. Conversely you ignored my question and FORCED upon the text your own idea that God "created THROUGH Christ." To create through does not necessarily mean that Christ was present at creation, indeed scripture insists something you resist, that is that: "LORD made ALL things ALONE, by HIMSELF" (Isa.44:24).

In Mark 13:19 Christ confirmed that God was the Creator FROM THE BEGINNING :

"For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be."

There is not the slightest hint in this statement of Jesus Christ that he personally had a hand in "the beginning of the creation", indeed he gave all the credit of creation to God his Father.

Howbeit, you imposed the idea that Christ had a hand in creation on the text to avoid answering my question and said: "This still does not say that Christ was not God's tool for creation." If Christ was God's 'tool' for creation then Isaiah was wrong in insisting that the "LORD made ALL things ALONE, by HIMSELF" (Isa.44:24).

My question to you now is: If Christ was God's tool for creation, why did he give ALL the credit to God when he spoke in Mark 13:19?

READ!