What is the express image of God?

[keypurr]

I didn't generate anything. Because there was a mirror to reflect and eyes to receive, my image appeared. God created a "mirror" for our eyes to see an image that wouldn't otherwise be seen, but the mirror isn't Him.

In a way you did. A reflection is created by the object.

Also, it is an exact image according to the way the word is used here (Wisdom 14:17). Do you see the same word used any place else that would help you define it? God is invisible. Jesus is not. That means the image can’t be “exact” in every way.

I have to be honest, I have not spent to much time in the Book of Wisdom. But I do not see a connection that you see. Folks make images to represents their gods is not the same as God making an exact copy of himself.

Why would God need to create the image if the uncreated image can take the form of a man?

He made a God that could die.

Why does God need Jesus to show us God’s glory? There is no Yahweh—for us, anyway—without His image.

Do we know more about God since Jesus came? I think so.

Yes, one would come to that conclusion if other Scripture, just as important, didn’t say that there is only one God.

I believe in only one true God who sent his son to show us who he is and what he wants from us.

Let me throw this out to you. If I am invisible to creatures that I’d like to be visible to, but the only way to do that is to manifest myself in a visible form, does that mean I’m two? Does that mean I’m two even when my invisible form is distinct from my visible form? Two forms, yes. But are there really two me’s?

I think that would depend on how you did it. In this case God made a copy for himself. That would be two beings with one mindset. So seeing one is like seeing the other.

If he broke off a piece on himself and made a man, would it not be the same as above? The reason why I lean to a created being is that he is firstborn of all creatures and he is am image. Being a form of God who can die like men would be more acceptable to mankind to believe.

These are just my thoughts friend.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Paul records in Colossians 1 that this image had the FULLNESS of the Father and he was pleased. Then he used this image to create the worlds. It seems to me God created a lesser godlike spirit to do his bidding. Just my thoughts Angel.

Peace

The term image of God is also used in Genesis, about the creation of man in Gods image and that is what i refer to.

Christ IS God, not an image of God.

 

[dave3712]

The term image of God is also used in Genesis, about the creation of man in Gods image and that is what i refer to.

Christ IS God, not an image of God.

It all makes very simple sense once you define you terms.

I start with the statement that Jesus made, "I am the Truth, and the way, and the life"...


Logically, since Christ is Truth, then his Father must be Reality, because Truth is the image of reality.

Truth can also be accepted by men.
Hence, Christ gives all men the power to become sons of God, simply by accepting him, aka Truth.

 

[freelight]

thought-forms and definition.......

thought-forms and definition.......

Definitions are necessary here.

Reality is what actually exists.

Truth is a mental concept in our mind which corresponds to what really exists.


Men have concepts about Reality which have been wrong over the ages.
They believed they had Truth imaged clearly in their mind.
But they were wrong.

The worlds they imagined did not exist at all.
Truth is sired by the ever unfolding Reality which never stops changing into the next frame of existence.

Truth is to the ever unfolding Reality as Current Events will be to accurate History.

Ok, I agree with some of this, although I more loosely at times identify 'reality' and 'truth' being essentially the same thing, but we can differentiate such if we like, if such distinctions enhance understanding. It depends on following the logos-fashion of the writer and their theology, as to determine how to define or contextualize their statements....thats part of the fun of it. You'll find that as you read/study more of a writers work....you familiarize yourself with the terms they use and connections become more integrated, essential clarity emerges, insights deepen, etc.

To reiterate again, any 'image' which appears in consciousness, appears only to that MIND perceiving and recognizing the 'definition' of that image.

A mental source or 'mind' could make its own 'definitions' of any given image, and that 'image' could still be said to belong to that 'mind'. We could correlate this to God's MIND or an individual mind given the same creative-capacity of its ancestral source. This expands the playing field of Infinite MIND...for any number of images, designs, forms or symbols could arise from such a source.


pj

 

[keypurr]

The term image of God is also used in Genesis, about the creation of man in Gods image and that is what i refer to.

Christ IS God, not an image of God.

The Apostle Paul disagrees with you Angel.

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Christ is a form of God, not God. He was given the fullness of his father.

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

God did not exalt himself, he exalted his Christ.

As you must know I believe that Christ is a spirit like his father. I also think he was God's first creation. Christ was in Jesus, he went to the cross with Jesus. Being a creation, he could die, even though he ws with God when the worlds were created.

It's not a popular faith, but it is mine.

Peace friend

 

[freelight]

images in MIND......

images in MIND......

Hi freelight,

You wrote:

It depends on your perspective, metaphysical understanding and context. Only where there is space-time-relativity/dimensions/measures/difference/divisions, etc. (the world of 'duality') are there 'allocations' of 'this' and 'that', there seeming to be 'you' and 'me'....or....'me' and 'God' as 'seperate' from each other. But from a 'non-dualistic' perspective...there is only 'being' and 'consciousness',...God is All That IS.....in the sense that 'God' is the only and sole reality-source, MIND and Spirit-presence, that primal Energy and substance out of which all is made, being omnipresent, the substratum and 'context' of all that is invisible and visible.

Ps82 writes:

Aren't your teachers choosing to ignore that "creation" actually did take place ... and that things do now exist in God? They are choosing to ignore God's plans for his creation ... and God's purpose for creating... and God's promises. They strive to be ONE with God by their own methods instead of accepting that it was Jesus who was ONE with God and who provides the WAY for us to be one with him as he is with the Father. IOW, they want to leave the SAVIOR out of the loop... For Christian believers - that a serious matter.

Note that whether creation arises or not, it does so of its own nature and momentum....all things are just spontaneously arising (whether you 'assume' a creator-god or not). The basis and philosophy of non-dualism accepts the movement of creation and what may seem to be purposive action or a directing intelligence within creation, for 'God' is the heart, energy, mind and will within that creation, but 'God' is also prior to and transcending all dimensions or conditions of existence, because 'God' Itself is the Source-Condition from which all other conditions emerge and appear.

It is true this universal perspective from a non-dualistic worldview...does not assume the need for a 'Savior' for such only exists within a belief-system, theology, culture or religious-tradition that presupposes such.


You wrote:

'God' can not even be proved to exist, apart from your own existence, as only your 'being' and 'consciousness' is 'Self-evident'. Any 'image' that arsies, does so in 'consciousness'. Consciousness is all there is (no matter how you define, formulate, differentiate, measure or assume anything).

Ps82 writes:

When writing this it sounds that your teachers think that man is more important and powerful than God ... for without us no one could ever say that there was a Creator ... but I dare to say that God created more than mankind. The Bible reveals that there are a number of heavenly type being that exist which we cannot naturally see with our own eyes by our own power.

Most of the writing-insights are my own, but yes, I draw from many schools and teachers but usually share from a creative spontaneous flow, or at least try to be a conduit for such.

My former commentary stands, reflect on it once again. - Its not a matter of oneself being greater, more important or powerful than 'God', but recognizing that the primal reality is within the germ of your own 'being', being that "I" of pure awareness, that very 'essence' and 'light' of 'God' which is non-different, non-differentiated, non-seperate, indivisible, universal. All arises as existence to the "I" of consciousness...and to no 'other'. That 'light' and 'being' is 'God',....a universal omnipresent BEING, an ocean of pure energy, pure love.

Angels, cosmic beings, spirits, etc. are emenations of 'God' and serve the evolving worlds, the elements and movements of creation as their cycles unfold. Acknowledging or believing in such a heirarchy, still does not discount the fact that 'God', 'existence', 'truth', 'the world', 'anything' and 'everything' still only exists because the very 'light' and 'being' of 'God' pervades and vivifies you! The 'I AM' presence within our soul bears witness that 'God' is, and so the universe and all worlds arise in this primal awareness. I am that pure energy of awareness, that still light, that primordial being, that very life. As far as "I" am concerned....nothing exists or non-exists outside of the "I" of Being. "I" is all there is, as long as awareness and consciousness identifies itself as an individual being of conscious LIGHT.

You wrote:

Jesus and other 'avatars' do reveal the invisible glory of God to us. In a universe of energy or spirit in-form-ation its inevitable that 'God' reveals himself to us in some form or image.

Ps82 writes:

Once again you make the story sound like it is all about revealing things to us ... when I believe that the story is all about God and what he is doing.

Well,.....'us' is 'God'. Remember....God is Light (Awareness, Consciousness, Being, Spirit, Soul, MIND...call It what you will). All forms, images, revelations are revealed to US. All is a creative play in the Mind of God...the meanigs and values we discover in the journey of Life are intrinsic to Life. All is in 'God'.....'God' is in all. The Omnipresence of Spirit reigns. God is....and His Isness ever prevails.

Now look back at your statement and see it from another perspective. When you see that there is only God Existing as Light...that primal awareness in which everything arises is indivisible....so that substrate of consciousness, the "I" that sees and knows....can be none other than 'God'. Besides 'God' there is no 'other'. 'God' is the One I Am. There is only 'God' and all that appears in 'God' or to 'God'...since 'God' in this mode is the witnessing consciousness. Nothing exists to be perceived or known....apart from "I".

In any case, I see we are veering from the topic of God's image, but as I touched on earlier.....the Universal Light of consciousness can birth many images or forms by its own creative freedom. It just so happens that 'Man' is universally held to be made in the image and likeness of Spirit. Consciousness is imaging and mirroring itself within creation. Thats all thats going on. Such is the whole of it as a 'context'....while the content infinitely unfolds or relates itself in endless ways. This is what is happening, all of its own accord.


pj

 

[Read]

I answered your questions above, now I wish to hear what you have to say about how they mix with the NT. I know God's word should not conflict, so give me your thoughts friend.

Peace

Keypurr,

Thankyou. You answered my six questions at the bottom of my post, but actually you did not answer my question at the beginning, the most important of all:

Keypurr do you believe Isaiah 44:24 which says:

"Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself ?

No matter: "For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? " (Rm.3:3)

Isaiah 44:24 is a simple truth clearly stated - the LORD made all things "alone, by himself." He acted exclusively, without assistance.

How then you ask can the fact that Isaiah taught that the LORD made all things "alone, by himself," be reconciled with the teaching of Paul who speaking of Jesus Christ in Colossians 1:16 said: "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth..."

Heaven and earth are spoken of in both Isa.44:24 and Col.1:16; surely I hear you say: Christ had a hand in the original creation of Genesis. No Keypurr, you are missing something.

The answer is incredibly simply, but is hidden from those who fail to tremble at His word, for "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter" (Proverbs 25:2).

Look at v.16 again: "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth..."

Here is a clue - Notice those two little prepositions "in". Col.1:16 is not saying that Jesus Christ had a hand in originally creating the heaven and earth in Genesis 1:1, but is talking about "all things created, that are IN heaven, and that are IN earth..."

Observe here in Colossians 1 that the "all things created" are NOT "the heavens and the earth" as per Genesis 1:1 and Isaiah 44:24; but rather "all things...that are IN heaven, and that are IN earth..." And we are told what the things are, namely "thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers."

Evidently, Jesus has been given authority to reconstruct the arrangements of angels as well as being the agent for the creation of the body of Christ on earth, the Church. This is the thought of Peter who speaking of Jesus after his resurrection wrote: " Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him" (1 Pet.3:22).

Now read Col 1:16 with what I have told you in mind: " For by him were all things created, that are IN heaven, and that are IN earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him."

So here is what Jesus created in verse 16 " thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him."

Before I pass onto Hebrews, can you tell me if I am beginning to resolve the conflict that some people see between Colossians 1 and Isaiah 44:24?

Read!

 

[keypurr]

Keypurr,

Thankyou. You answered my six questions at the bottom of my post, but actually you did not answer my question at the beginning, the most important of all:

Keypurr do you believe Isaiah 44:24 which says:

"Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself ?

No matter: "For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? " (Rm.3:3)

Isaiah 44:24 is a simple truth clearly stated - the LORD made all things "alone, by himself." He acted exclusively, without assistance.

How then you ask can the fact that Isaiah taught that the LORD made all things "alone, by himself," be reconciled with the teaching of Paul who speaking of Jesus Christ in Colossians 1:16 said: "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth..."

Heaven and earth are spoken of in both Isa.44:24 and Col.1:16; surely I hear you say: Christ had a hand in the original creation of Genesis. No Keypurr, you are missing something.

The answer is incredibly simply, but is hidden from those who fail to tremble at His word, for "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter" (Proverbs 25:2).

Look at v.16 again: "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth..."

Here is a clue - Notice those two little prepositions "in". Col.1:16 is not saying that Jesus Christ had a hand in originally creating the heaven and earth in Genesis 1:1, but is talking about "all things created, that are IN heaven, and that are IN earth..."

Observe here in Colossians 1 that the "all things created" are NOT "the heavens and the earth" as per Genesis 1:1 and Isaiah 44:24; but rather "all things...that are IN heaven, and that are IN earth..." And we are told what the things are, namely "thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers."

Evidently, Jesus has been given authority to reconstruct the arrangements of angels as well as being the agent for the creation of the body of Christ on earth, the Church. This is the thought of Peter who speaking of Jesus after his resurrection wrote: " Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him" (1 Pet.3:22).

Now read Col 1:16 with what I have told you in mind: " For by him were all things created, that are IN heaven, and that are IN earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him."

So here is what Jesus created in verse 16 " thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him."

Before I pass onto Hebrews, can you tell me if I am beginning to resolve the conflict that some people see between Colossians 1 and Isaiah 44:24?

Read!

I see your point but I do not agree. No you have not resolved the conflict, in my heart, I wish you did. I'm going to post from some other translations, look them over and see if you stil feel the same way.

Colossians 1:16

(ASV) for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;

(BBE) For by him all things were made, in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen, authorities, lords, rulers, and powers; all things were made by him and for him;

(Bishops) For by him were all thinges created, that are in heaue and that are in earth, visible and inuisible, whether [they be] maiestie or lordeshippe, either rule or power: All thynges were created by hym and for hym.

(CEV) Everything was created by him, everything in heaven and on earth, everything seen and unseen, including all forces and powers, and all rulers and authorities. All things were created by God's Son, and everything was made for him.

(DRB) For in him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers. All things were created by him and in him.

(ESV) For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him.

(Geneva) For by him were all things created, which are in heauen, and which are in earth, thinges visible and inuisible: whether they be Thrones or Dominions, or Principalities, or Powers, all things were created by him, and for him,

(GNB) For through him God created everything in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen things, including spiritual powers, lords, rulers, and authorities. God created the whole universe through him and for him.

(GW) He created all things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible. Whether they are kings or lords, rulers or powers- everything has been created through him and for him.

(ISV) For by him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether they are kings, lords, rulers, or powers. All things have been created through him and for him.

(KJV) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

(NAS77) For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created by Him and for Him.

(NASB) For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.

(NET.) for all things in heaven and on earth were created by him — all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, whether principalities or powers — all things were created through him and for him.

(NIrV) All things were created by him. He created everything in heaven and on earth. He created everything that can be seen and everything that can't be seen. He created kings, powers, rulers and authorities. Everything was created by him and for him.

(NIV) For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

(NKJV) For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

(NRSV) for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers--all things have been created through him and for him.

(TNIV) For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

(YLT) because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,

Now does this conflict?

Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Notice how some translation us Lord instead of LORD.

(BBE) The Lord, who has taken up your cause, and who gave you life in your mother's body, says, I am the Lord who makes all things; stretching out the heavens by myself, and giving the earth its limits; who was with me?

(Bishops) Thus saith the Lorde thy redeemer, euen he that fassioned thee from thy mothers wombe: I the Lorde do all thinges my selfe alone, I only spreade out the heauens, and I only haue laide abrode the earth by my owne selfe.

(DRB) Thus saith the Lord thy redeemer, and thy maker, from the womb: I am the Lord, that make all things, that alone stretch out the heavens, that established the earth, and there is none with me.

(Geneva) Thus sayeth the Lord thy redeemer and he that formed thee from the wombe, I am the Lord, that made all things, that spred out the heauens alone, and stretched out the earth by my selfe.

That might have a bearing on the conflict.

Thanks for posting your thoughts, I will give them more of my time.

Peace Read

 

[Ps82]

Freelight,
We always hit upon an impasse. We / Us are not God. There is purpose to our existence... and we have been set upon a literal course by God ... There is a need for a savior ... because God established himself as the savior before he ever created us and ever called us forth within his own essence... He has already manifested himself as the savior ... and he has told us of things to come.

 

[keypurr]

Mr Read, I am very interested in your views about Hebrews 1.

I have come to the point where I believe Christ is a God. But he is a created one. I know it sounds far fetched, but that is what I see in scripture. I hope you can give me something to get my mind working overtime to solve this conflict of scripture.

Peace

 

[Ps82]

Keypurr,
Wrap your head around this:
Consider a human being.

We have a physical body. From scripture it is obvious that death circumcises our body from our spirit ... for we are told: absent from this body we are going to be present with the Lord.

Understanding this about a human being at physical death we can now comprehend that mankind must have a dual nature. A spiritual nature that is associated for a time with THAT mortal body, which can be left behind at death.

We, at least, have two separate natures... a living spiritual invisible entity and a living visible body. Now, if God created mankind in this way ... and tells us that he created mankind after His own image and likeness ... then we can begin to grasp how the invisible spiritual entity that we know as the ONE God could also possibly be associated in a like manner with a living bodily form as well.

For mankind ... both the unique individual entity was created by God AND the living bodily form too ... BUT with God's presence IT is only the body form that was created ... while God's spirit, which is associated with IT, is eternal.

Regarding the Christ ... IT is only the visible presence/image that was created. That does not mean that the ONE God has created another God.
It merely means that the ONE God has created one bodily form for his personal use and used IT.

This is why I mention that God revealed the NAME of his glorious body of heaven to Moses. That NAME is (kJV) LORD, the LORD God.

This is why I continue to mention Isaiah 43:11
I (the ONE invisible spiritual God), even I AM the LORD (the God of Israel that appeared), beside ME (as invisible spiritual God and visible bodily form named LORD) there is no savior.

 

[Read]

I see your point but I do not agree. No you have not resolved the conflict, in my heart, I wish you did. I'm going to post from some other translations, look them over and see if you stil feel the same way.

Colossians 1:16

(ASV) for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;

(BBE) For by him all things were made, in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen, authorities, lords, rulers, and powers; all things were made by him and for him;

(Bishops) For by him were all thinges created, that are in heaue and that are in earth, visible and inuisible, whether [they be] maiestie or lordeshippe, either rule or power: All thynges were created by hym and for hym.

(CEV) Everything was created by him, everything in heaven and on earth, everything seen and unseen, including all forces and powers, and all rulers and authorities. All things were created by God's Son, and everything was made for him.

(DRB) For in him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers. All things were created by him and in him.

(ESV) For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him.

(Geneva) For by him were all things created, which are in heauen, and which are in earth, thinges visible and inuisible: whether they be Thrones or Dominions, or Principalities, or Powers, all things were created by him, and for him,

(GNB) For through him God created everything in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen things, including spiritual powers, lords, rulers, and authorities. God created the whole universe through him and for him.

(GW) He created all things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible. Whether they are kings or lords, rulers or powers- everything has been created through him and for him.

(ISV) For by him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether they are kings, lords, rulers, or powers. All things have been created through him and for him.

(KJV) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

(NAS77) For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created by Him and for Him.

(NASB) For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.

(NET.) for all things in heaven and on earth were created by him — all things, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or dominions, whether principalities or powers — all things were created through him and for him.

(NIrV) All things were created by him. He created everything in heaven and on earth. He created everything that can be seen and everything that can't be seen. He created kings, powers, rulers and authorities. Everything was created by him and for him.

(NIV) For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

(NKJV) For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

(NRSV) for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers--all things have been created through him and for him.

(TNIV) For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

(YLT) because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,

Now does this conflict?

Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Notice how some translation us Lord instead of LORD.

(BBE) The Lord, who has taken up your cause, and who gave you life in your mother's body, says, I am the Lord who makes all things; stretching out the heavens by myself, and giving the earth its limits; who was with me?

(Bishops) Thus saith the Lorde thy redeemer, euen he that fassioned thee from thy mothers wombe: I the Lorde do all thinges my selfe alone, I only spreade out the heauens, and I only haue laide abrode the earth by my owne selfe.

(DRB) Thus saith the Lord thy redeemer, and thy maker, from the womb: I am the Lord, that make all things, that alone stretch out the heavens, that established the earth, and there is none with me.

(Geneva) Thus sayeth the Lord thy redeemer and he that formed thee from the wombe, I am the Lord, that made all things, that spred out the heauens alone, and stretched out the earth by my selfe.

That might have a bearing on the conflict.

Thanks for posting your thoughts, I will give them more of my time.

Peace Read

Keypurr,

You say: "I see your point but I do not agree. No you have not resolved the conflict, in my heart, I wish you did."

The idea of yours expressed on post #376 that "Christ is...the son who God used to create everything", is identical to the teaching of the Watchtower organisation. Did you learn this from Jehovah Witness literature?

Your conflict therefore is between the belief of Isaiah that "the LORD God made all things alone, by himself" (Isa.44:24) and your own conclusion (or JW dogma)that though "...not God himself...Christ is...the son who God used to create everything (your post #376).

I agree with you that the Son is not God himself, but do not believe that Christ was involved in the original creation of Genesis but only in the setting up of " thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers" and that after his exaltation at the right hand of God; when these "things were created by him, and for him" (Col.1:16).

It seems to me that you may have been further confused by the conflicting translations of Colossians 1:16, some of which say that "Everything was created BY him" (CEV), while others say that "IN him all things in heaven and on earth were created" (NRSV).

I believe Colossians 1:16 actually says: “For in him [Christ] [not “by” him as mistranslated in some versions] all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created through [not “by” him as mistranslated in some versions] him and for him.”

The creator is God, the Father. He made everything. He made man and woman. He rested at creation. Jesus came into being when Mary conceived supernaturally. The miraculous conception makes him the Son of God in a special sense (Luke 1:35).

Jesus Christ was the reason for all creation, the occasion for creation, since as the firstborn he is to possess all authority over the universe under God. But God, the Father, the One God (1 Cor. 8:6) is the creator of all things.

Hebrews 3:4 states that: “God is the builder of everything.”

However that may be let us leave Colossians for a moment and consider what Jesus himself said about the beginning creation:

"For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be"(Mark 13:19).

Keypurr, you do not believe that the Son is God himself, but think that "Christ is...the son who God used to create everything" (your post #376). This idea of yours brings you into conflict with the very statement of Jesus that it was God who created from the beginning.

Keypurr, did Jesus claim to be "the son who God used to create everything" (your post #376), or did he speak about "the beginning of the creation which God created?"(Mk.13:19)

Your idea that "Christ is...the son who God used to create everything" also implies that Jesus Christ pre-existed his own birth in Bethlehem. This idea of preexistence implies that Christ was higher and more powerful than the angels at creation, which makes a mockery of his " Being made so much better than the angels... when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high" (Heb.1:3-4).

On this subject kindly read an article entitled PREEXISTENCE OR PREEMINENCE? by William M. Wachtel

http://focusonthekingdom.org/articles/colossians.htm

READ!

 

[Totton Linnet]

This is sooo... correct.
How did God become a man?

a.) First the invisible Spiritual God created an IMAGE / a bodily form for himself ...
b.) Then he associated his unique nature with this form so that IT personally represented Him within creation. IT only did and said what God wanted when IT appeared.
c.)Then he shared this image and likeness with humanity when he formed Adam. God the Father's future rescued children were going to favor him within his kingdom.
d.) God manifested his IMAGE / His body of heaven in His clearness KJV (Exodus 24:9,10,11,12) unto men in OT times... and became known as the God of Israel ... their Jehovah, my KJV LORD.
d.) Then when God was ready to come as the Savior (Isaiah 43:11), he manifested his IMAGE / body of heaven again - but in mortal human flesh the second time. Colossians 1:14,15
e.) Once again God associated his invisible nature with this particular living bodily presence - so that IT only said and did what God wanted.
Colossians 1:15,16; John 3:34,35

God remained God ... but appeared as a literal man of flesh... and all of his nature was associated with the body of the Christ.

Christ always was the Living Temple [dwelling place] of the Living God. Although Christ is the firstborn of creation it is vital to remember that He was created in eternity.....now the human mind cannot comprehend eternity, if we say billions of years ago [like the stoopid evolutionists] it is not eternity.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Keypurr begat a rabbit.

 

[Theo_Matic]

Hello , hmmm if i am allowed to post... Image of God ? If talking about the visual image. no one can really guess. He's God ! but basically we should beleive He's like what He is described in devine scripts. and here we go , everyone sees Him according to his adopted Script. God is God just everyone sees Him using his own colored glasses. What matters is we beleive He Exisits. He is the Most Mercyfull .. He is good!

 

[dave3712]

Christ always was the Living Temple [dwelling place] of the Living God. Although Christ is the firstborn of creation it is vital to remember that He was created in eternity.....now the human mind cannot comprehend eternity, if we say billions of years ago [like the stoopid evolutionists] it is not eternity.

When religious people couch their ideas about the bible is statements which they themselves say "the human mind can not wrap itself around," they admit that they make no sense at all, de facto no one could understand them or their point.

What is simple is that Truth is our High Priest that shines light on the almighty Reality we are nurtured and threaten by.

 

[keypurr]

Keypurr,
Wrap your head around this:
Consider a human being.

We have a physical body. From scripture it is obvious that death circumcises our body from our spirit ... for we are told: absent from this body we are going to be present with the Lord.

Understanding this about a human being at physical death we can now comprehend that mankind must have a dual nature. A spiritual nature that is associated for a time with THAT mortal body, which can be left behind at death.

We, at least, have two separate natures... a living spiritual invisible entity and a living visible body. Now, if God created mankind in this way ... and tells us that he created mankind after His own image and likeness ... then we can begin to grasp how the invisible spiritual entity that we know as the ONE God could also possibly be associated in a like manner with a living bodily form as well.

For mankind ... both the unique individual entity was created by God AND the living bodily form too ... BUT with God's presence IT is only the body form that was created ... while God's spirit, which is associated with IT, is eternal.

Regarding the Christ ... IT is only the visible presence/image that was created. That does not mean that the ONE God has created another God.
It merely means that the ONE God has created one bodily form for his personal use and used IT.

This is why I mention that God revealed the NAME of his glorious body of heaven to Moses. That NAME is (kJV) LORD, the LORD God.

This is why I continue to mention Isaiah 43:11
I (the ONE invisible spiritual God), even I AM the LORD (the God of Israel that appeared), beside ME (as invisible spiritual God and visible bodily form named LORD) there is no savior.

I am just a disagreeable old man today. I believe that the express image of God is a creation, a created spirit. Being a created godlike spirit it could die. Christ died, God could not, but a created deity can and did. I think this is the same spirit that moved across the face of the waters in Genesis 1. God created through this spirit.

Oh dear friend, I have indeed opened a Pandora's box.

 

[Bright Raven]

I am just a disagreeable old man today. I believe that the express image of God is a creation, a created spirit. Being a created godlike spirit it could die. Christ died, God could not, but a created deity can and did. It must be understood that His humanness died, His spirituality did not. (See homostatic union) I think this is the same spirit that moved across the face of the waters in Genesis 1. God created through this spirit.

Oh dear friend, I have indeed opened a Pandora's box.

No. The Spirit that moved over the waters was the Holy Spirit, this one;

John 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

The thing you need to do friend is get away from Christ being a created being. Nowhere in scripture is there a place that it specifically says that Christ is created. He is not a created deity. Deity is eternal and cannot die.

In Genesis what does it say? God spoke. Spoke what? The Word. Who created all things; Christ did. Do you see the link between the word and Christ? Think about that for a while.

 

[freelight]

Spirit-source

Spirit-source

~*~*~

As shared previously, 'God' who is LIGHT can create or reflect any image that his own nature and consciousness can conceive or formulate, which gives rise to the manifold creation, vareity of creatures and all forms existing in the visible realm. All is reflected within the Omni-consciousness of 'God' pointing back to the Source which is the 'I Am', the origin of all substance and form. Jesus points us to worship that Spirit-Presence Alone, which is the Father of all.




pj​

 

[Angel4Truth]

The Apostle Paul disagrees with you Angel.

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Christ is a form of God, not God. He was given the fullness of his father.

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

God did not exalt himself, he exalted his Christ.

As you must know I believe that Christ is a spirit like his father. I also think he was God's first creation. Christ was in Jesus, he went to the cross with Jesus. Being a creation, he could die, even though he ws with God when the worlds were created.

It's not a popular faith, but it is mine.

Peace friend

Yes, in the form of man, He is an image of God like we all are (see Genesis) but as Deity He is God, not an image.