Water Baptism passed away in this dispensation

[thelaqachisnext]

thelaqachisnext,
...


Jesus did not send Ananais to water baptize Paul.
...
One should not add to scripture!

I do not add to Scripture -but you are taking away from the words of Jesus Christ, which is blasphemy, and I do not kiss up to false doctrine which puts men in danger of eternal death.

Scripture interprets Scripture, not men who deny Truth.
Ananais was a disciple of Christ Jesus,

Act 9:10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I [am here], Lord.

and as such, was sent by Jesus to preach Him, and was commanded to water baptize Believers.

Ananais, the apostle of Jesus to Saul, commanded Saul to "rise and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the LORD".

Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Saul obeyed, as each and every regenerated Believer since then has who has lived in their own Adam body long enough to perform the doing of the commandment of Jesus to all Beleivers in all this Church age.

Saul kept the law all his life, and was devout according to the law, understanding the typology of the law and why God chose Abram from the Gentiles to "make a name for himself" as James said, in Acts 15.

James answered, saying, "Men and brethren, listen to me: 14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:

16 'After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the [fn2] Lord who does all these things.'

Saul circumcised Timothy with his own hands and commanded Jews called into Christ to not become uncircumcised and commanded Gentiles called into Christ to not become circumcised.

Paul only taught what the prophets taught.

Act 26:22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

 

[glassman]

I believed you were MAD in doctrine because you were speaking like they do.

No one is a kinsman to Believers in Christ if they are not "in Christ" by the adoption into His One living Spirit.

We are all kinsmen in Adam, but to be one in Christ we must be born again, and if we are born again we will obey Jesus' commands, for His commands are in effect until the end of this present age, which is to say they are in effect until the Church is removed from this earth at the time of the ingathering of the first harvest of the adopted sons of God, which is taught in the living oracles, and which harvest is called Pentecost.

Jesus commanded all born again Believers to be baptized in water.

Jesus is God in flesh. God said to be water baptized. He said "why do you call me LORD and not obey My words".

There are only two reasons a professing "follower of Christ" would refuse to be water baptized in Jesus name:
1. ignorance of God's command, as exampled in Scripture, but rectified as soon as they were rightly instructed in the way of the LORD more perfectly.
2 they are not followers of Christ and have never known Him and follow doctrines of demons, which is warned of in Scripture, and the remedy is to obey Jesus' and not men.

Earlier you said:
Jesus commanded the "ritual" of water baptism for the old man body which all believers continue to wear after they are born again in Spirit [which we wear until we depart the old man body].

I know you believe it was commanded. I want to know what it does for your "old man body" after being born again in Spirit. Why do you believe Jesus commanded a ritual washing of the flesh?

Why do you believe mid-acts dispensationist are not in Christ? They believe in following Christ through Paul, His apostle chosen to go to the Gentiles who were without the law. If they are right you are calling God's Word doctrines of demons.

It appears you are more mad than they.

 

[glassman]

I do not add to Scripture -but you are taking away from the words of Jesus Christ, which is blasphemy, and I do not kiss up to false doctrine which puts men in danger of eternal death.

Scripture interprets Scripture, not men who deny Truth.
Ananais was a disciple of Christ Jesus,


and as such, was sent by Jesus to preach Him, and was commanded to water baptize Believers.

Ananais, the apostle of Jesus to Saul, commanded Saul to "rise and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the LORD".

Saul obeyed, as each and every regenerated Believer since then has who has lived in their own Adam body long enough to perform the doing of the commandment of Jesus to all Beleivers in all this Church age.

Saul kept the law all his life, and was devout according to the law, understanding the typology of the law and why God chose Abram from the Gentiles to "make a name for himself" as James said, in Acts 15.

Saul circumcised Timothy with his own hands and commanded Jews called into Christ to not become uncircumcised and commanded Gentiles called into Christ to not become circumcised.

Paul only taught what the prophets taught.

In the context it is clear that Jesus did not instruct Ananias to water baptized Paul.
Because I pointed this out to you and in doing so I have blasphemed the word of God?

You are displaying extreme indoctrination!

It is also clear that we are not under the law!

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

If we are freed from the law why is it you believe we must follow it?

Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

[godrulz]

Water baptism and the Lord's Supper are not works of the law. They are symbols of vital reality in Christ and our relationship/discipleship with Him. They are not salvific or meritorious in themselves. Obedience to the Lord's command in this area is not essential for salvation, but important, nonetheless.

 

[Minerva]

Why do you feel it is important...in what way?

 

[godrulz]

Why do you feel it is important...in what way?

If Jesus commanded it, it must be important. It is a step of obedience and commitment that symbolizes our identification with Christ. God sees heart faith, but man sees outward expression of faith. It is a tangible evidence and witness to believer and unbeliever that the person is a disciple of Christ and is identifying with His universal and local church. There is blessing and growth in obedience.

Whether one follows the Lord in the waters of baptism or not, one can still love and serve God (if it is important for sinless Jesus to please the Father, who am I to disobey an explicit command...go and make disciples...teaching and baptizing as you go).

Minimally it is an anchor point for us and others to proclaim that Jesus is Lord of our lives. We are shouting that we are dying to self and rising to new life in Christ and identifying with His church of baptized believers, dead to self and risen in Christ.

 

[glassman]

If Jesus commanded it, it must be important. It is a step of obedience and commitment that symbolizes our identification with Christ. God sees heart faith, but man sees outward expression of faith. It is a tangible evidence and witness to believer and unbeliever that the person is a disciple of Christ and is identifying with His universal and local church. There is blessing and growth in obedience.

Whether one follows the Lord in the waters of baptism or not, one can still love and serve God (if it is important for sinless Jesus to please the Father, who am I to disobey an explicit command...go and make disciples...teaching and baptizing as you go).

Minimally it is an anchor point for us and others to proclaim that Jesus is Lord of our lives. We are shouting that we are dying to self and rising to new life in Christ and identifying with His church of baptized believers, dead to self and risen in Christ.

Do you believe it is possible to be baptized by the word?

That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, Eph. 5:26 (KJV)
That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Eph. 5:27 (KJV)

It is clearly stated that Christ washes with the word and it is this washing that sanctifies. Not a symbolic ritual.


Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1 Pet. 1:23 (KJV)

This baptism by the Spirit cleanses man on the inside and has nothing to do with the flesh (John 6:63). This baptism is also accomplished without water. The element of this cleansing must be received inwardly by believing the words of the new testament and thus we "drink" into the Spirit. We receive this spiritually (the breath of God enters into us), we do not drink His blood. This message was veiled by the flesh of Jesus and the apostles did not comprehend it. Spirit baptism by the power of God accomplished what water baptism could not do in that it eternally cleansed the heart of sinners.

Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. John 4:10

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.1 Pet. 1:23
For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 1 Pet. 1:24


If you open the valve of a irrigation tank did you baptize each seed in the field individually causing it to germinate? No, it would be impossible to do so but you did release the water thus giving life to all the seed the water immersed. Such is the spirit word (John 6:63) of the new testament for remission of sins (Mat 26:28) that Christ instructed the apostles to teach (Mat 28:19-20), it gives life (2 Cor 3:6) and we are born again through faith in it (1 pet 1:23).

 

[glassman]

. It is a tangible evidence and witness to believer and unbeliever that the person is a disciple of Christ and is identifying with His universal and local church. .

Water baptism is not tangible evidence and you know it.

Many have been water baptized that are not new testament believers.

What is tangible is to witness our faith in the new testament with the words of truth thus leaving no doubt.

 

[Minerva]

If Jesus commanded it, it must be important. It is a step of obedience and commitment that symbolizes our identification with Christ. God sees heart faith, but man sees outward expression of faith. It is a tangible evidence and witness to believer and unbeliever that the person is a disciple of Christ and is identifying with His universal and local church. There is blessing and growth in obedience.

Whether one follows the Lord in the waters of baptism or not, one can still love and serve God (if it is important for sinless Jesus to please the Father, who am I to disobey an explicit command...go and make disciples...teaching and baptizing as you go).

Minimally it is an anchor point for us and others to proclaim that Jesus is Lord of our lives. We are shouting that we are dying to self and rising to new life in Christ and identifying with His church of baptized believers, dead to self and risen in Christ.

That is the view that I have had pretty much for a while. That baptism was good as an outward display of your salvation. A way to stand up and profess to the world that you are a follower of Christ. I am lately not so sure. What about the fact that Jesus told us to do this in the Old testament, before the new covenant?

At the ascension, the Messiah told His disciples...“For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence (Acts 1:5; see Eph. 4:4).”

Doesn't this say to you that the water baptism was under the old laws and that now, as of the day of pentecost, being under a new law, we are to baptized spiritually? And we are not to perform works of the old covenant any longer....“He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace (Heb. 10:28-29)?”

I would like godrulz and glassman to respond to my post please.

 

[bling]

Glassman said:
No one is said to be preparing the way because Jesus came during John's ministry.

Matt. 3:3, Matt. 11:10, Mark 1:2-3, Luke 1:76, Luke 3:1, Luke 3:4, Luke 7:27. John is preparing the people to accept the crucified savior and Christ on His throne.

I also believe what Paul said: “He (John) told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”

Glassman asked:
They had not heard of the Holy Spirit!

That is no different than to say they had not heard John preach.

What did John preach Bling? Do you know?


I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Matt. 3:11

I am only quoting scripture and do not believe these follows of John were lying.

To say “he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire” does not say much about the Spirit. What do you understand about being baptized with fire meant exactly?

I also believe what Paul said: “He (John) told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”

Glassman said:
Water immersion was performed before John the baptist.

Study the histroy of Judaism concerning baptism!

I have and yes “water immersion” was performed for the priests on occasion , but I can not find it in mass unless you are talking about the one time Moses had the huge cleansing for the introduction of the Law or for the Red Sea crossing or Noah at the time of the flood. If we are talking about these you are talking about something extremely special and not routine.
I assume you are admitting the vast majority of Jews in Jerusalem before Pentecost were baptized by John’s baptism and that was what I was trying to establish.

Glassman said:
Believing in Jesus as the Massiah made all during John's ministry Christians and John preached Christ and many were baptized believing in the Messiah.

This still does not address the question! How do you reconcile your conclusion that vast amounts of Jerusalem Jews were baptized prior to Pentecost, yet after rapid growth there are only 5000 men believers by Acts 4.

At this time How could you have been a good Jew and not believed in the Messiah? The problem was in believing God coming in human form to die for our sins (Jesus on the cross was the Chrsit.).

Glassman said:
Jesus revealed it but it wasn't accepted:

Agreed, so no one understood Jesus as the human sacrifice for our sins require by God? That is a huge portion of the message!

Glassman said:
Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
Joh 4:11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
Joh 4:12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
Joh 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
Joh 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

What do you believe this living water is?

The spiritual eternal life and the indwelling Holy Spirit. This is not the promises of Holy Spirit baptism or is baptism being referred to here.

Glassman said:
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, Eph. 5:26 (KJV)
That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Eph. 5:27 (KJV)

It is clearly stated that Christ washes (baptizes) with the word.

I agree: In scripture “water” is not always referring to literal “liquid H2O” all the time. Water can refer to the Spirit. And cleansing is part of the rebirth act like the earth being made a new; cleansed with the flood. Again though “…washing of water by the word”, Eph. 5:26 might refer to water baptism as being part of the message (word) that cleanses us of our past sins (rebirth to a new pure life). Or it could mean: We submit to being water baptized as part of our commitment and after being in the Church, Christ will continue to cleanse us with the Holy Spirit’s words.

Glassman used:
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ev

er.
1 Pet. 1:23 (KJV)

Water baptism is part of the whole message of God or word of God.

Glassman used:
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. John 12:48 (KJV)

You can not define a word in one spot and say that is the same definition in every other spot.

Glassman used:
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Cor. 12:13
For the body is not one member, but many. 1 Cor. 12:14

Water Baptism is a Spiritual rebirth (it is not a physical rebirth). The Spirit is involved in rebirth.

Glassman said:
The Lord is that Spirit (2 Cor 3:17) and the Spirit is Christ (Roms 8:9). Christ Jesus is the agent and the word (Eph 5:26) He spoke of His shed blood (Matt 26:28) is the element.

This baptism by the Spirit cleanses man on the inside and has nothing to do with the flesh (John 6:63). This baptism is also accomplished without water. The element of this cleansing must be received inwardly by believing the words of the new testament and thus we "drink" into the Spirit. We receive this spiritually (the breath of God enters into us), we do not drink His blood. This message was veiled by the flesh of Jesus and the apostles did not comprehend it. Spirit baptism by the power of God accomplished what water baptism could not do in that it eternally cleansed the heart of sinners.
Peter tells us:

1 Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Water baptism is not an outward cleaning, but a commitment (pledge) to a Spiritual cleansing. Water baptism is Spiritual and not physical.

Glassman said:
God chose not to give it until Christ ascended.

So did all those that had been baptized with John’s baptism all of a sudden at Jesus’ ascention, have the indwelling Spirit they know nothing about?

Glassman said:
If John had not been beheaded he would have been preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission 9mARK 1:4) of sins as did the apostles at pentecost (Acts 2:38)

Did John ever say “and you shall receive the Holy Spirit?”

Glassman said:
Strange that not one mention of "baptism" by the Spirit.

The baptism at Pentecost was with water.

Yes, there was Holy Spirit mentioned in Acts 2, 10 and 11 but since Peter has to go back to the beginning on Pentecost to explain the Holy Spirit baptism that the Gentiles had experienced, shows this was very unique.

Glassman said; a whole lot about:
Baptism or Mikveh

You did a great job and for the most part I am in agreement. We just interpret these things differently.

You have established the Jews as being very familiar with water baptism, but that just supports the idea John’s baptism did not eliminate the need for Christian baptism.

Water baptism is referred to under the Old Law as a rebirth, which is one of the points of John 3.

There is a lot said that since Jesus went to the cross there is no need for cleansing through baptism. BUT there is plenty of evidence that water baptism continued after the cross.

There is a lot made about Paul saying 1 Cor. 1:17 “For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel” that really needs to be reviewed in context. The problem with the Corinthian is they have developed clicks in the Church. They were even using who actually did the actual physical baptizing of them. Paul was not saying it was wrong to be baptized (he remembers baptizing some that were in Corinth at the time) he realized, like Christ realized, that it was best for others to do the actual baptizing placing excessive value on the individual doing the baptizing. Anyone can baptize another person and who did it is not significant only that the person submitted to being baptized for the right reason.

Concluding that water Baptism is a work, is not supported by scripture any more then confessing Jesus as Lord is a work, or repentance is a work. An individual submits to being baptized, it is something do to him. It maybe considered an act of humility, obedience or worship but not some work of salvation. If you refuse to be baptized would that not be the same as refusing to confess Jesus is Lord to the non believer?

 

[glassman]

That is the view that I have had pretty much for a while. That baptism was good as an outward display of your salvation. A way to stand up and profess to the world that you are a follower of Christ. I am lately not so sure. What about the fact that Jesus told us to do this in the Old testament, before the new covenant?

At the ascension, the Messiah told His disciples...“For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence (Acts 1:5; see Eph. 4:4).”

Doesn't this say to you that the water baptism was under the old laws and that now, as of the day of pentecost, being under a new law, we are to baptized spiritually? And we are not to perform works of the old covenant any longer....“He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace (Heb. 10:28-29)?”

I would like godrulz and glassman to respond to my post please.

Water baptism was for remission of sins during the ministry of John the baptist (Mk 1:4) and at Pentecost (Acts 2:38).

Jesus gave us a new testament purchased with His blood.

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

The old has be replaced by the new!

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

When we are in Christ our flesh also died with him as did water baptism of the flesh.

We are also quickened by the Spirit, this is our baptism which is by the words of the new testament for remission.

 

[godrulz]

Water baptism is not tangible evidence and you know it.

Many have been water baptized that are not new testament believers.

What is tangible is to witness our faith in the new testament with the words of truth thus leaving no doubt.

This is also why I say external ritual cannot save or transform. Just because some do it with the wrong motives does not mean there is not a legit. way for a true believer to obey God.

 

[godrulz]

The early church after the cross did not follow John's baptism, but believer's baptism in obedience to the final commission of Christ after He rose from the dead. This is not OT, but the beginning of NT truth.

If we still preach, teach, make disciples of all nations, why cut out baptism?

I realize Mid-Acts makes Jn. 3:16 and Mt. 28:18-20 part of a circumcision only dispensation, but I think that is flawed. Paul was baptized and baptized others. Believer's baptism was not rescinded. It should not be confused with John's baptism.

 

[thelaqachisnext]

Earlier you said:
Jesus commanded the "ritual" of water baptism for the old man body which all believers continue to wear after they are born again in Spirit [which we wear until we depart the old man body].

I know you believe it was commanded. I want to know what it does for your "old man body" after being born again in Spirit. Why do you believe Jesus commanded a ritual washing of the flesh?

Why do you believe mid-acts dispensationist are not in Christ? They believe in following Christ through Paul, His apostle chosen to go to the Gentiles who were without the law. If they are right you are calling God's Word doctrines of demons.

It appears you are more mad than they.

The doctrine of MAD is not from Christ, and the paul of MAD is not Paul the Apostle -they have nothing in common, especially doctrine of Christ- just as the doctrine of Watchtower is not from Christ, and as the doctrine of Mormonism is not from Christ , and as the doctrine of Christian Science [so called] is not from Christ: so how can one who is following false doctrine and a false paul who teaches rebellion against God's words -which is witchcraft- be in Christ? -you tell me how it can be possible, esp in light of 1 John 1 &2.

1Jo 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1Jo 2:3 ¶And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Jesus is God. Jesus commanded water baptism for all the Church for all the Church age. If one says they are in Christ, and they are indeed, then they will obey His commandments. Water baptism is His commandment for all those who believe in Him.

Glassman, there is not one Scripture in the NT which says that the old man body of Adam flesh we wear while we have our being intact is born again; rather, that is our hope in the resurrection of our flesh in the New MAn's image, and water baptism is the sign of our hope for that old man flesh to rise in Him; so we bury it in water, 'washing away our sins', by being buried with Christ -by faith- and we believe we shall be born again in body in the resurrection of our old man flesh in the New Man image; and even if we do not understand the mystery of the resurrection of our body, we have no excuse for rebellion against the LORD God's commandment to be baptized -if indeed we have repented of our sins -or do you not believe in repentence either?

To rebellious Saul, Samuel prophesied:

1Sa 15:23 For rebellion [is as] the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness [is as] iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from [being] king.

and everything written about in the OT is written for our instruction, to learn from and to be made wise in the fear of God, by not repeating their deeds of rebellion against the word of God, YHWH, come in human flesh as the Firstborn of the Father and the Foundation Stone of the second human being creation, which is the temple He is building for the Glory to indwell, which is not made with hands.

Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

 

[jeremiah]

The early church after the cross did not follow John's baptism, but believer's baptism in obedience to the final commission of Christ after He rose from the dead. This is not OT, but the beginning of NT truth.

If we still preach, teach, make disciples of all nations, why cut out baptism?

I realize Mid-Acts makes Jn. 3:16 and Mt. 28:18-20 part of a circumcision only dispensation, but I think that is flawed. Paul was baptized and baptized others. Believer's baptism was not rescinded. It should not be confused with John's baptism.

Yes, I agree with godrulz here. Matt 28:19-20 is a command to the end of the age. The age referred to is the age between the ascension and the second coming. The nations refer to the entirety of humanity!


Thus the baptism, in the name of the Father and the Son and the Spirit, is for Jew and Gentile from the Ascension to the Second Coming!


I always think of Baptism, the same way that I think of the blood on the Doorpost at the Passover. Did the blood, save the firstborn? Or did God save the firstborn?
God saved all the firstborn of Israel and the mixed multitude {Gentiles} who believed and obeyed.

God saved the firstborn, if you simply applied the blood to the doorpost. If you refused to do so, and relied solely on grace through disobediance, then the first born died anyway.

Similarly, water Baptism does not save anyone. God saves people. If you refuse to get baptized, then you are directly disobeying His instructions. Thus you are relying upon grace through disobediance. Why would you want to put God to the test?

Another example of God saving through faith, acted out in simple obediance, is the serpent in the wilderness. The people were guilty, and God graciously saved those guilty, { both Israel and the mixed multitude?} who simply looked upon the serpent, in the wilderness that was lifted up. If you believed God saved but refused to look up, why would you expect God to break His word for you, but not others?

I think those who realise that the act of Baptism does not save anyone, are playing a dangerous game with God. It is called "testing the Lord your God".

I can not urge you strongly enough, put the blood on your doorpost, look up at the serpent, and, in other words, get yourself Baptized. You are not an exception, and you are placing yourselves above those who act in obediance to God's commands. Does that make any sense to you?

 

[godrulz]

I support your feelings about baptism to a point, but I would not use OT imagery as binding in this age of grace. Outward expressions of faith vary (OT=circumcision; NT=baptism), but I would suggest the simplicity of faith in the reality (Christ) does not require the same degree of obedience to shadows/types. There were many OT laws and rituals (dietary) that would be more binding as evidence of faith than we who are indwelt by the Spirit AFTER the cross through simple faith in the person and work of Christ.

 

[jeremiah]

I support your feelings about baptism to a point, but I would not use OT imagery as binding in this age of grace. Outward expressions of faith vary (OT=circumcision; NT=baptism), but I would suggest the simplicity of faith in the reality (Christ) does not require the same degree of obedience to shadows/types. There were many OT laws and rituals (dietary) that would be more binding as evidence of faith than we who are indwelt by the Spirit AFTER the cross through simple faith in the person and work of Christ.

I think I understand what you are saying here, but I am referring to the one simple act of faith that is promised to lead to either physical salvation, or eternal salvation, in the examples I cited.

All acts of disobediance are covered , for us, by the blood of Christ. However I see no way to acquire that blood by calling upon the grace of God through faith, and then acted in disobediance to the simple requirement that He commands for that act of salvation! It seems to be the height of arrogance, to a sovreign God who has bent down low, to serve us His grace!

 

[godrulz]

I agree that there is no good reason to disobey any of God's commandments, but baptism is still not a condition of salvation.

 

[Minerva]

How do you feel about circumcision? Not to get off subject, but quickly, I would like to know your thoughts. One verse in particular being Colossians 2 :11-13. In this verse we see baptism and circumcision being talked about. What do you think this verse is saying?

 

[godrulz]

How do you feel about circumcision? Not to get off subject, but quickly, I would like to know your thoughts. One verse in particular being Colossians 2 :11-13. In this verse we see baptism and circumcision being talked about. What do you think this verse is saying?

The verses essentially show that legalism is wrong and that the reality is in Christ.

Gentile Christians in Colosse did not need to practice Jewish rules like circumcision. The life of Christ, not the law of Moses was the new law. Spiritual reality in the death and resurrection of Christ was the real thing, unlike the external rituals of the shadow/type.

Baptism pictures our identification with Christ as we die to the old self and put on new life in Christ. A picture is not the inward, spiritual reality done by the Spirit. Just as Christ was raised from the dead, so we are raised from spiritual death to new life in Christ. The normative practice of believer's baptism, not the OT practice of circumcision, now symbolizes the heart reality given by Christ.