Water Baptism passed away in this dispensation

bling

Member
Glassman asked:
Are you assuming that those baptized by John were not Christians?
If so why not?
Look how will the 12 disciples prior to Jesus going to the cross, being buried and rising understood Christianity? Even John the Baptist seemed to have a different perspective on the Messiah and asked Jesus “are you the one?” The masses (the majority of Jewish people) had a misconception of the Messiah and would not have understood their commitment with John’s baptism. When you commit to a leader that has gone to the grave, you have to have faith in His resurrection. If you were a Jew lived in Palestine at the time of John the Baptist and everyone was believing he was a prophet and everyone was going out to be baptized by him what is the down side risk to accepting John’s baptism? Why would you not be baptized by John unless you were part of the Jewish religious leadership, but even they did not say anything against John, John had no critics? The idea being conveyed is that the vast majority of the Jewish people were baptized with John’s baptism. Making a commitment to Christ as the Messiah after being crucified is another whole story. That could get you kicked out of the synagogue, that was accepting a entirely different Messiah.

I said all that to get to the numbers: The evidence we have is there were over 150,000+ people in Jerusalem at the time of Christ the Bible supports this idea also but does not give the number specifically.
Luke 7:29 All the people, even the tax collectors, when they heard Jesus' words, acknowledged that God's way was right, because they had been baptized by John.
Acts 13:24 : Before the coming of Jesus, John preached repentance and baptism to all the people of Israel.
Matt:21:26 we are afraid of the people, for they all hold that John was a prophet.
John 3:23 Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were constantly coming to be baptized.
To use the word “all” the number must be much greater then 50%, so would that not mean greater the 50% of the 150,000 plus in Jerusalem? If that is true, how can there be by Acts 4:4 the Church rapidly growing to only 5,000 men believers?

Glassman asked:
Why would those baptized by John need to be rebaptized in the name of Jesus?
When John baptized he proclaimed Jesus as the Christ.
John the Baptist preached repentance for the forgiveness of sin (Mark 1:4). I am sure the Messiah as the source of that forgiveness would be addressed, but there would be confusion about the description of the Messiah. Many seemed to think John was the Messiah. John knew Jesus was the Messiah and said as much, but did not play the part of an advertiser or a recruiter for Jesus. John was preparing the way for the new dispensation and the Kingdom. John’s picture of the Messiah seemed incomplete, so he would ask again Luke 7:19. The servant, selfless, sacrificial, God in man Messiah was not understood by the Masses (if anyone at the time). John was preaching the same good news taught by the prophets before him, the baptism was a sign of commitment to those concepts.
What would it have meant to the Jews that heard from John: Jesus is the Christ and only preach the Baptism of John? If that is the whole message then Priscilla and Aquila would not have more to teach Apollos in Acts 18:26. Apollos needed more training on baptism and not on Jesus as the Christ.
John’s baptism did nothing in the way of conveying the Holy Spirit.


Glassman asked:
How was John's baptism incomplete as compared to the apostles at pentecost?
Scripture please.
Acts 18: 25He had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervor and taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately.

The only short coming of Apollos message was he only knew the baptism of John.

Paul appears to meet up with some taught by Apollos and explains the short coming to knewing only John’s baptism.

Acts 19: 1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?"
They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
3So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?"
"John's baptism," they replied.
4Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.
From the above discussion you can see Paul ties water baptism to receiving the Holy Spirit. There is a sequence of events that follows there hearing about Jesus as the Christ, they were baptized (water baptism) and then afterwards “when” Paul places his hands on them the received a miraculous portion of the Spirit that included speaking in tongues. They were not baptized with the Spirit and the laying on of Paul’s hands is not baptism. If you look at the Greek there is a sequence of events.

At water baptism we do not receive the miraculous gifts of the Spirit that goes with being baptized with the Spirit or the laying on of the apostles hands, but we do receive the indwelling portion of the Spirit that is not outwardly seen. That indwell portion is what all Christians receive today, for there are no more apostles around to lay hands on people and there has not been any baptisms of the Spirit since the very early church days. John’s baptism did not provide the indwelling Spirit.


Glassman asked:
How did those at pentecost commit to Christ as savior differently from those that John baptized?
I have gone over John’s baptism above, but the big commitment difference is committing to the crucified Christ and the understanding we put Christ on the cross for our sins to be forgiven. It is one thing to commit to God forgiving our sins some how through the Messiah (what else can we do for we can not work our way out of that debt) and it is another thing to commit to being responsible for butting Christ on the cross. My sins sent Christ to the cross and He willingly bore my sins there.

Acts 2: 38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.






Glassman said:
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Nic asked if it were possible to enter the womb a second time and be born again.

Jesus responded to Nic's question and said unless a man is born (not born again or reborn) of water and of the spirit he cannot enter.

Jesus then clarified his statement and said "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit".

Being born from the womb and then born of the spirit by faith is to be born again.
Look what Jesus says in John 3:6 Jesus does not say “born of water is flesh” or physical. Physical birth is not expressed as water birth.
Nic did not need clarification on the first birth, they were in agreement with that. Also, Jesus replies to the question on people’s hearts not the questions or comments they verbally address to Jesus you can see that with John 3:1-3.
I think the explanation I already gave is clear on this:

Well my Greek is rusty, but let me try to explain what I remember: In John 3:3 Jesus said: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." Then in John 3:5 in response to Nicodemus want clarification Jesus restates what He said: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. It is very easy to see that “born again” in 3:3 = “born of water and the Spirit” in 3:5. It would not be logical for Jesus to add another concept into the second parallel statement said right after the first. “born again” was what Nicodemus was asking about not being born the first time, he understood that.

Glassman asked:
That two borns = one born again!!!!!
I am saying “Born of water and the Spirit” means this birth consist of both “water and the Spirit” not two births. Jesus did not say “born of water and born of the Spirit” that would be a totally different Greek wording, check the Greek out. The water birth is spiritual worship and is only significant as a spiritual act. John was providing something totally different, then the physical acts of worship at the temple, this was an act of Spiritual worship that would have been include in Jesus statement John 4:23.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
1Co 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel; not in wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling,
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism

VS.

Mar 1:4 John came baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Joh 1:31 And I did not know Him, but that He be revealed to Israel, therefore I have come baptizing with water.

Mar 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be condemned.


The gospel, in any dispensation, is not faith and baptism. Faith/grace has always been the condition. Billy Graham preaches the gospel, but does not personally baptize all of his converts. Being a Baptist, he encourages people to be baptized as an act of obedient witness and discipleship, not in order to be saved. Your proof text essentially supports the same principle (don't forget that Paul was baptized and did baptize a convert in Acts).

Eph. 4 Does the phrase ONE LORD preclude God from being triune? Is the Father Lord? Son Lord? Holy Spirit Lord? Yes. Is God Lord? Yes. I have given an interpretation for this before. Check a credible commentary. It is not precluding water baptism which was a normative outward symbol of inward faith leading to Spirit baptism into the body of Christ.

Verses about JB's baptism merely show that it was an act that symbolized heart repentance, the real condition of salvation. It is not to be confused with believer's baptism after the cross.


Does Mark 16 contradict John 3:16 or does it contradict your interpretation? Not only is the passage not in the best and oldest MSS (though I believe its truths), it does not say that those who are not baptized will not be saved. In the early church, inward faith and outward baptism were normatively linked. This does not mean that baptism was a condition for salvation like faith is (or you must rewrite John 3:16, 36; I Jn. 5:11-13).
 

glassman

New member
There are several possible interpretations for this verse. It is not believer's NT baptism since this was before the Church started. Other clear verses like Jn. 1:12; 3:16, 36, etc. make faith, not baptism or works, the condition of salvation.

If it refers to John's baptism, the water only symbolized the repentance, which was the condition of salvation. Ritual cannot regenerate. External acts are symbolic of repentant faith and obedience, not salvific in themselves. This is clear from more explicit verses.

How then is believers new testament baptism at Pentecost different from John's.

If so I assume you believe in rebaptism. If not why not?

Baptism is an ancient Jewish tradition. When John the Baptist came on the scene he preached a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins (Mark 1:4) as did Peter (Acts 2:38) at Pentecost when the nations were gathered together. The Jews saw nothing wrong in John’s demands that people repent and be baptized. John's message was the same as all the other Jewish prophets proclaimed. He preached God's judgment, warning that Israel must repent and be water baptized because of the coming of the Messiah was at hand.
 

glassman

New member
Bling


You said:

Look how will the 12 disciples prior to Jesus going to the cross, being buried and rising understood Christianity? Even John the Baptist seemed to have a different perspective on the Messiah and asked Jesus “are you the one?” The masses (the majority of Jewish people) had a misconception of the Messiah and would not have understood their commitment with John’s baptism. When you commit to a leader that has gone to the grave, you have to have faith in His resurrection. If you were a Jew lived in Palestine at the time of John the Baptist and everyone was believing he was a prophet and everyone was going out to be baptized by him what is the down side risk to accepting John’s baptism? Why would you not be baptized by John unless you were part of the Jewish religious leadership, but even they did not say anything against John, John had no critics? The idea being conveyed is that the vast majority of the Jewish people were baptized with John’s baptism. Making a commitment to Christ as the Messiah after being crucified is another whole story. That could get you kicked out of the synagogue, that was accepting a entirely different Messiah.

My response:

In the future please provide proof text for you assumptions.

John baptized Jesus and the Father witnessed from heaven that Jesus was His Son.

No misconseptions. John prepared the way of the Lord.

No critics because baptism was Jewish tradition.

You said:

I said all that to get to the numbers: The evidence we have is there were over 150,000+ people in Jerusalem at the time of Christ the Bible supports this idea also but does not give the number specifically.
Luke 7:29 All the people, even the tax collectors, when they heard Jesus' words, acknowledged that God's way was right, because they had been baptized by John.
Acts 13:24 : Before the coming of Jesus, John preached repentance and baptism to all the people of Israel.
Matt:21:26 we are afraid of the people, for they all hold that John was a prophet.
John 3:23 Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were constantly coming to be baptized.
To use the word “all” the number must be much greater then 50%, so would that not mean greater the 50% of the 150,000 plus in Jerusalem? If that is true, how can there be by Acts 4:4 the Church rapidly growing to only 5,000 men believers?

My response:

Try a quick look at Jewish tradition concerning baptism.

You said:

John the Baptist preached repentance for the forgiveness of sin (Mark 1:4). I am sure the Messiah as the source of that forgiveness would be addressed, but there would be confusion about the description of the Messiah. Many seemed to think John was the Messiah. John knew Jesus was the Messiah and said as much, but did not play the part of an advertiser or a recruiter for Jesus. John was preparing the way for the new dispensation and the Kingdom. John’s picture of the Messiah seemed incomplete, so he would ask again Luke 7:19. The servant, selfless, sacrificial, God in man Messiah was not understood by the Masses (if anyone at the time). John was preaching the same good news taught by the prophets before him, the baptism was a sign of commitment to those concepts.
What would it have meant to the Jews that heard from John: Jesus is the Christ and only preach the Baptism of John? If that is the whole message then Priscilla and Aquila would not have more to teach Apollos in Acts 18:26. Apollos needed more training on baptism and not on Jesus as the Christ.
John’s baptism did nothing in the way of conveying the Holy Spirit.

My response:

No confusion about the Messiah when John baptized them.

What do you mean by conveying the Holy Spirit.

What more was revealed at Pentecost about the Holy Spirit then the Baptist did.

You said:

Acts 18: 25He had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervor and taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately.

The only short coming of Apollos message was he only knew the baptism of John.

Paul appears to meet up with some taught by Apollos and explains the short coming to knewing only John’s baptism.

Acts 19: 1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?"
They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
3So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?"
"John's baptism," they replied.
4Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.
From the above discussion you can see Paul ties water baptism to receiving the Holy Spirit. There is a sequence of events that follows there hearing about Jesus as the Christ, they were baptized (water baptism) and then afterwards “when” Paul places his hands on them the received a miraculous portion of the Spirit that included speaking in tongues. They were not baptized with the Spirit and the laying on of Paul’s hands is not baptism. If you look at the Greek there is a sequence of events.

My response:

The word water is not in the verses you provided. Dry baptism is more of a possibility.

You said:

At water baptism we do not receive the miraculous gifts of the Spirit that goes with being baptized with the Spirit or the laying on of the apostles hands, but we do receive the indwelling portion of the Spirit that is not outwardly seen. That indwell portion is what all Christians receive today, for there are no more apostles around to lay hands on people and there has not been any baptisms of the Spirit since the very early church days. John’s baptism did not provide the indwelling Spirit.

My response;

There is no "baptism of the Spirit" at Pentecost. Got proof text?

You said:

I have gone over John’s baptism above, but the big commitment difference is committing to the crucified Christ and the understanding we put Christ on the cross for our sins to be forgiven. It is one thing to commit to God forgiving our sins some how through the Messiah (what else can we do for we can not work our way out of that debt) and it is another thing to commit to being responsible for butting Christ on the cross. My sins sent Christ to the cross and He willingly bore my sins there.

My response:

There is no mention that Christ died for their sins at Pentecost. Got proof text?


You quoted:

Acts 2: 38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


My reply:

John preached water baptism for remission and also the Holy Ghost.

No difference!

Mar 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:




You said:

Look what Jesus says in John 3:6 Jesus does not say “born of water is flesh” or physical. Physical birth is not expressed as water birth.
Nic did not need clarification on the first birth, they were in agreement with that. Also, Jesus replies to the question on people’s hearts not the questions or comments they verbally address to Jesus you can see that with John 3:1-3.
I think the explanation I already gave is clear on this:

Well my Greek is rusty, but let me try to explain what I remember: In John 3:3 Jesus said: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." Then in John 3:5 in response to Nicodemus want clarification Jesus restates what He said: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. It is very easy to see that “born again” in 3:3 = “born of water and the Spirit” in 3:5. It would not be logical for Jesus to add another concept into the second parallel statement said right after the first. “born again” was what Nicodemus was asking about not being born the first time, he understood that.


I am saying “Born of water and the Spirit” means this birth consist of both “water and the Spirit” not two births. Jesus did not say “born of water and born of the Spirit” that would be a totally different Greek wording, check the Greek out. The water birth is spiritual worship and is only significant as a spiritual act. John was providing something totally different, then the physical acts of worship at the temple, this was an act of Spiritual worship that would have been include in Jesus statement John 4:23.

My reply:

John's baptism was in keeping with Jewish tradition.

PS

Shorter post with proof text please.
 

Minerva

New member
There is a very explanatory article that contains the very subject matter that is being deliberated here. I believe it might clear up a few things. There is a ton of proof text in the article so that should be copacetic for glassman, and it provides much insight into some of the things you are all discussing. I wanted to copy and paste it but the copyrighting prevented me from doing so. You will find the article is rather lengthy but very insightful and informative (in my opinion :eek: ) and I suggest you read atleast up to the point where at the end of one of the paragraphs it will say...... (Job42) ...... (which is about half way through the article). I urge you not to overlook this article. Thanks...and I hope you find it helpful.....:cheers:

http://www.tribulation.com/paraklet.htm
 

Minerva

New member
Let me ask you guys this - In the matter of a literal water baptism do you think that it matters if you are baptized with the correct intentions? In case you don't follow...Do you think that Jesus will not recognize the baptism if you do not have the correct intentions when you are baptized?

Let's say that baptism is a required article of salvation, as many people do believe. If you are baptized because you intended it to be only an outward show of your salvation or through any other reason aside from acknowledgement that it is required...do you think Jesus will recognize it anyway? :think:

After giving your answer, please tell me how you came to the conclusion you arrived at.

(don't forget to check out the link in the post above this one)
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
How then is believers new testament baptism at Pentecost different from John's.

If so I assume you believe in rebaptism. If not why not?

John's baptism was repentance and pointed to the coming Messiah. It was prepatory and under the Old Covenant. It was before the cross and resurrection. It was not a symbol of Christ's death and resurrection and our identification with it, nor was it symbolic of being added to the Church, the Body of Christ.

Believer's baptism is after the cross and resurrection. It symbolizes our identification with the death and resurrection of Christ and identifies us with the Body of Christ.

In Acts, some who heard of John's baptism or were baptized by him were now taught about Spirit baptism and believer's baptism of Christ vs of JB.

If someone was sprinkled as a baby, I would suggest believer's baptism as an adult.

If someone was baptized as an adult in one denomination, I would not suggest they be rebaptized if they join another church or denomination.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Let me ask you guys this - In the matter of a literal water baptism do you think that it matters if you are baptized with the correct intentions? In case you don't follow...Do you think that Jesus will not recognize the baptism if you do not have the correct intentions when you are baptized?

Let's say that baptism is a required article of salvation, as many people do believe. If you are baptized because you intended it to be only an outward show of your salvation or through any other reason aside from acknowledgement that it is required...do you think Jesus will recognize it anyway? :think:

After giving your answer, please tell me how you came to the conclusion you arrived at.

(don't forget to check out the link in the post above this one)

A general principle is that motive in any choice is important. The Pharisees did good religious things with the wrong motive (selfish vs glorify God) and were rebuked despite their outward piety.

Our motive should be loving obedience. Baptism is not required for salvation, so I would not obsess about things. God sees the heart. Many people have done religious rituals without an inward transformation. Others with heart transformation do not follow through with outward things.
 

Minerva

New member
A general principle is that motive in any choice is important. The Pharisees did good religious things with the wrong motive (selfish vs glorify God) and were rebuked despite their outward piety.

Our motive should be loving obedience. Baptism is not required for salvation, so I would not obsess about things. God sees the heart. Many people have done religious rituals without an inward transformation. Others with heart transformation do not follow through with outward things.

Hey GodRulz :wave2:

Just to be clear, I don't feel that baptizm is a necesary component of salvation. I think it is a good thing, but in no way required.

And thanks for your thoughts on the subject, they were good ones.
 

Pettrix

BANNED
Banned
Pauline Epistles and Water Baptism

Paul, who is the apostle of the Gentiles during this dispensation of Grace, spoke of baptism in 8 different passages. Only once does Paul make specific reference to water baptism.

1. 1 Corinithians 10:2 - Israel being baptized unto Moses. This baptism has no reference to this dispensation.

2. 1 Corinthians 12:13 - Holy Spirit as the One who baptizes believers into the one Body of Christ. This was purely a spiritual work and has no reference to a ceremony involving water.

3. 1 Corinthians 15:29 - Context shows that Paul is speaking of baptism as a suffering of martyrdom.

4. Galatians 3:27 - Water baptism is not what is being talked about here. Clearly the Holy Spirit is spoken of here.

5. 1 Corinthians 1:13-17 - Paul makes specific reference to water baptism here. Although he states that he had baptized at least three people in Corinth, he plainly states that Christ had never commissioned him to practice water baptism.

6. Ephesians 4:5 - Paul states that there is only one baptism. It must be that alone of the Holy Spirit. Nowhere is water found here. One means one. (1 Timothy 2:5)

7. & 8. Romans 6:3-4 & Colossians 2:12 - These passages are in the midst of doctrinal exposition dealing with deliverance through identification with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection, and are not dealing with Church administration or water baptism. It is 100% effective in putting every baptized person into Christ. Water is not to be found in the context of these passages. It is completely a spiritual baptism. Refer to Galatians 2:20 - I was crucified with Christ.
 

Minerva

New member
Pauline Epistles and Water Baptism

Paul, who is the apostle of the Gentiles during this dispensation of Grace, spoke of baptism in 8 different passages. Only once does Paul make specific reference to water baptism.

1. 1 Corinithians 10:2 - Israel being baptized unto Moses. This baptism has no reference to this dispensation.

2. 1 Corinthians 12:13 - Holy Spirit as the One who baptizes believers into the one Body of Christ. This was purely a spiritual work and has no reference to a ceremony involving water.

3. 1 Corinthians 15:29 - Context shows that Paul is speaking of baptism as a suffering of martyrdom.

4. Galatians 3:27 - Water baptism is not what is being talked about here. Clearly the Holy Spirit is spoken of here.

5. 1 Corinthians 1:13-17 - Paul makes specific reference to water baptism here. Although he states that he had baptized at least three people in Corinth, he plainly states that Christ had never commissioned him to practice water baptism.

6. Ephesians 4:5 - Paul states that there is only one baptism. It must be that alone of the Holy Spirit. Nowhere is water found here. One means one. (1 Timothy 2:5)

7. & 8. Romans 6:3-4 & Colossians 2:12 - These passages are in the midst of doctrinal exposition dealing with deliverance through identification with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection, and are not dealing with Church administration or water baptism. It is 100% effective in putting every baptized person into Christ. Water is not to be found in the context of these passages. It is completely a spiritual baptism. Refer to Galatians 2:20 - I was crucified with Christ.

You say there is no water in the verse Ephesians 4:5 but if you read into the next chapter, as Paul is still speaking to the gentiles, you can see that there is...

Ephesians 5:

26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

What do you think is being referred to when it says "it"? (I think it is referring to the church, and the church can also be translated as God's people)

It says to me that Jesus made "it" clean by the washing of water with the word. Saying that washing something with water made it clean.

In what way, if any, do you think this verse correlates to baptism?

(I would like GLASSMAN to answer this too, please)



While I am aware that the Pauline Epistles are of special note...we have to realize that the word baptism shows up in about 58 verses in the bible. That surely says to me that we should reflect on the subject.
 

glassman

New member
Hey GodRulz :wave2:

Just to be clear, I don't feel that baptizm is a necesary component of salvation. I think it is a good thing, but in no way required.

And thanks for your thoughts on the subject, they were good ones.

Good for some but bad for others.

The ritual of water baptism has it's roots in Judaism as a spiritual cleansing.

During John's ministry it was required before remission of sins.
Mar 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Peter's Penecostal message required it for remission (Acts 2:38).
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

If only one is lost due to believing in this ritual of water then it is one to many.

Remission in water or spiritual cleansing was a message for those under the law but we have a new testament message which was noy revealed at Pentecost.

Christ said:
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Pauline message:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Water baptism is not for us today and the ritual should not be peformed.

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
 

Servo

Formerly Shimei!
LIFETIME MEMBER

Is it possible for you to read a reply and understand it?


No it is not. Let’s say I only understand yes and no to a yes and no question. So it seems you are not able to answer my question. If you can admit that you are not able to answer my yes and no question with a "yes" or a "no", please do so and I will let it go.

Once again:

If someone repents and accepts Christ as their Saviour, put NEVER gets water baptized, I mean NEVER! And they die of old age, will they go to be with the Lord in Heaven.

Yes or No?


Gentiles are not commanded to keep Moses, and I am a born again, water baptized, female, Pentecostal

If gentiles are not required to keep the symbolic laws, why do you mention that you are water baptized? Is water baptism more than a symbolic law to the circumcised?

Paul kept Moses all his life. I do not keep Moses and am not required to..



Again, not required to? Except for water baptism, correct?

Paul kept the law for all of his life?

What do you make of these verses?

Galatians 5:2
Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.

Galatians 5:3
And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
 

Minerva

New member
Good for some but bad for others.

The ritual of water baptism has it's roots in Judaism as a spiritual cleansing.

During John's ministry it was required before remission of sins.
Mar 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Peter's Penecostal message required it for remission (Acts 2:38).
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

If only one is lost due to believing in this ritual of water then it is one to many.

Remission in water or spiritual cleansing was a message for those under the law but we have a new testament message which was noy revealed at Pentecost.

Christ said:
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Pauline message:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Water baptism is not for us today and the ritual should not be peformed.

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.


So are you saying that when baptism is referred to, it is saying that when you are saved is when you are baptized with the Holy Spirit and it is a spiritual doing and not a physical water one.

I still don't see what is wrong with baptism as an outward show of your salvation. I also don't see what you mean by someone being "lost" through this water ritual...



"1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."

I do not think this verse says that by baptizing someone the cross is made of no effect...is that what you were using it to show?


EDIT - I got all messed up because I didn't refresh my bible search, and then I wasn't looking at the right books, and I have way too many search windows open at once trying to figure all this out...anyway I had to change something in my post, sorry.
 

glassman

New member
John's baptism was repentance and pointed to the coming Messiah. It was prepatory and under the Old Covenant. It was before the cross and resurrection. It was not a symbol of Christ's death and resurrection and our identification with it, nor was it symbolic of being added to the Church, the Body of Christ.

Believer's baptism is after the cross and resurrection. It symbolizes our identification with the death and resurrection of Christ and identifies us with the Body of Christ.

In Acts, some who heard of John's baptism or were baptized by him were now taught about Spirit baptism and believer's baptism of Christ vs of JB.

If someone was sprinkled as a baby, I would suggest believer's baptism as an adult.

If someone was baptized as an adult in one denomination, I would not suggest they be rebaptized if they join another church or denomination.

Water baptism was a ritual cleansing under the law durning John's ministry and to the Jews at Pentecost.

In the old testament we read that before giving the Law on Mount Sinai, God commanded the people to wash as an act of purification (Exodus 19:11). The Mosaic law records the washing of Aaron (Lev. 8:6) and his sons when they were ordained as priests to minister in the holy tabernacle. God commanded Aaron (Lev. 16:4) to wash himself before he ministered in the Holy of Holies on the Day of Atonement. This priestly cleansing by immersion prepared Israel as a nation for the priesthood during the ministry of John the Baptist.

Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: (Ex. 19:5)
And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel (Ex. 19:6).

John was that voice crying in the wilderness!

For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight (Matt. 3:3).

John's baptism was sufficent enough for Christ and it was not superceded by another baptism nor is a new water baptism taught us by the scriptures.

The New Covenant or New Testament requires faith in the blood of Christ for remission (Rom. 3:25) as the eternal means for spiritual cleansing. Spiritual baptism is the washing away of sin (Titus 3:5) and uncleanness by the blood of Christ, and the giving of new life by God's Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13).The New Testament scriptures teach that by faith we are plunged or buried into his atoning death (I Cor. 12:13), so that God might raise us even as Christ himself rose from the dead by the operation of God.

Modern Christianity confuses the biblical order, the sacrifice comes first then water baptism as a symbol of their faith. The correct order is revealed in the gospels as the Baptist prepared Israel as priest with water baptism to receive Jesus who was the Sacrifice. The confusion in the order is based on a misunderstanding of the purpose and place water baptism had in the roots of Judaism. The scriptures do not teach water baptism as symbolic of what be believe but they reveal it as a cleansing ritual under the Mosaic law to prepare for the Sacrifice. Because of Christ's sacrifice, believers are cleansed spiritually and forgiven of their sin. Paul described it this way in his New Testament letter to the Gentile believers:

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (Col. 2:9)
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: (Col. 2:10)
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (Col. 2:11)
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. (Col. 2:12)
 

Minerva

New member
glassman - what do you think these verses are saying about baptism?

1 Corinthians 12
1Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

2Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14For the body is not one member, but many.

(KJV)
 

glassman

New member
So are you saying that when baptism is referred to, it is saying that when you are saved is when you are baptized with the Holy Spirit and it is a spiritual doing and not a physical water one.

I still don't see what is wrong with baptism as an outward show of your salvation. I also don't see what you mean by someone being "lost" through this water ritual...



"1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."

I do not think this verse says that by baptizing someone the cross is made of no effect...is that what you were using it to show?


EDIT - I got all messed up because I didn't refresh my bible search, and then I wasn't looking at the right books, and I have way too many search windows open at once trying to figure all this out...anyway I had to change something in my post, sorry.

Paul the apostle to the Gentiles reveals in his epistles that baptism is an operation of God not a water ritual.

Paul by revelation from Christ tells us there is only one baptism.

Anyone that would associate the water ritual as part of the gospel message of salvation has included a work of the flesh and not fully trusted in the sacrifice of Christ.

Many religist sects require water baptism as part of salvation.

Many Baptist require it prior to becoming a member of their earthly church.
Some will go so far as to say if you aren't water baptized then you really weren't
saved because to you did not follow the great commission as they call it.
 

Minerva

New member
would you agree with this:

a. "There is a way to distinguish between water baptism and Spirit
Baptism in those scriptures which do not specifically tell which
type is being discussed."
b. "That way is this: if the passage is talking about being placed
into Christ, then it is talking about Spirit Baptism, not Water
Baptism, for Spirit Baptism is how we are placed into Christ."
 
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