Water Baptism passed away in this dispensation

[thelaqachisnext]

Yes, I agree with you. I am simply trying to shoot holes in the argument given by almost all pre-tribbers that I run into. They confidently assert that the "he" who now restrains in 2Thess 2-7 is the Holy Spirit.

I assert that the restrainer is Michael the archangel according to Daniel 10-21.

Gabriel was apparently held up for 21 days, until Michael arrived and restrained the evil principalities, so that Gabriel could then leave, and deliver the message to Daniel.

Michael is elsewhere called the "prince" over the people Israel.

When he stands down, and stops "restraining" Satanic forces, and protecting Israel, then the time of Jacob's trouble begins. The last 3 and 1/2 years of the tribulation period, called the Great Tribulation, or the time of Jacob's trouble.

I at least have a biblical example I can use for Michael as the restrainer.

That is not the "job" description of the Holy Spirit, and besides "He" capital H, can not be "taken out of the way". That whole interpretation is so forced, it makes pre-tribbers even more suspect in my mind.

No, you don't, my friend
Gabriel told Daniel in Daniel 10:21 that he would show Daniel what was written in the Scripture of truth and that "one" [echad] "binds" with me in these things.
The written Scripture of Truth is not included in the OT, but is written in heaven, and Enoch saw it written there and reported it as written for the angels to read and know what the will of God is, to uphold -'bind'- for this present creation.


The Scripture does not call Michael "the restrainer", ever, but the Scripture [OT] says that the Church will be taken from the midst of -away from- the earth, before the great and terrible day of the LORD.

Scripture also says that the man child borne by Spiritual Zion, who will be seen as a star sign in the heavens during the Great Tribulation , will be seen as harpazo -caught up- to the throne. In Daniel 7 that "man child" is seen in a vision as "one like the son of man" coming to the Ancient of Days [Jesus Christ is the Ancient of Days seen by Daniel] to receive the kingdom from Him, and the angel tells Daniel that one like the son of man is the "Saints of the Most High", coming to the Ancient of Days.

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment [was] white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne [was like] the fiery flame, [and] his wheels [as] burning fire.
A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him....

Dan 7:16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things. ....Dan 7:16 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
...
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom./B]

Spiritual Zion [the Woman who compassed a "Man" as the New Thing in the earth], Who is the heavenly "Mother" of us all who are joined to Christ [by adoption into His Living Spirit] shall travail, but before she shall travail, the 'man-child' shall be born and caught up in the first harvest ingathering -Pentecost- which is typed in the Feasts of YHWH [which were given to Israel as Living Oracles to perform of the One Way plan for Salvation for all born in Adam by the Elect Firstborn of earth]

Isa 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

The Star sign in the Great Tribulation shows the Church as the first ingathering of sons of God, born and caught up as priests to rule the lost dominion of Adam ransomed back, by the Elect Firstborn.

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.

The Church is called these things in Scripture: she; he; sons of God, bride of Christ; one new man:
Israel is called these things in Scripture; she; he; sons of God; wife of YHWH -and Israel was given the name of the "One New Man" and are therefore His Namesake People, as a sign of the adoption to come in the "acceptable Year of the LORD", which is the Day of Atonement which made an end of sin and cleansed our being for the perfecting in Him as priests unto God -which Adam died as.

Jesus Christ is not the man child caught up to the throne; He is the Ancient of Days who sits on the throne to whom the "perfected [regenerated in body because they are regenerated in Spirit] sons of God of the first harvest" go to [there are two harvests of sons of God before the regeneration of the heavens and earth and the uniting of the heavens and the earth] , and they receive the kingdom inheritance in Him that He ransomed back, as Firstborn of earth, which we lost in Adam.

What the angels did bind -as two sons of God agreeing together, and binding in the heaven of earth's spiritual dominion about, so that the will of God which was written in the heavenly tablets would be performed- was that the prince of Persia in the spiritual realm would not hold Israel any longer, but would release Israel.

When the two sons of God "bound" the prince of Persia in the heavenlies, according to the written will of God, then Cyrus, the king of Persia, was released to release Israel.

Jesus also gives His adopted sons by the second birth power to bind on earth according to His will the spiritual forces which hold souls captive to sin and slavery to sin; in fact, that is what His priests and sons do and why He came to free us to do in His name, by His power, in His will.

Isaiah 58 [please read] is plain that He does not seek religious excercises and is not pleased with those things, but that He seeks His people to be a true "house of prayer" for all nations [which the temple was made a type and shadow of], to set the captives free from bondage and do the works He called us to do from the beginning of creation in His name: in short: if we are called Christians, then His spirit should be in us and we should be seeking Him as Jesus taught, to know His will daily and do His works that He came to do and left us to do, on earth, for others. Intercession for souls is the high calling of Christians while they live in this world, and His born again in His spirit sons are made His "priests", to stand before Him and intercede for souls.

 

[Pettrix]

Pettrix,
I'm glad to see you on theologyonline.

Bob Hill

Thank you, I am glad to be here. I hope I can bring some enlightenment to the forum...

 

[Pettrix]

You might want to give it more study, for there are lots of problems.

Are you stating the dispensational theology has many problems?

Have you seen the state "Christianity" is in today? The main reason why there are hundreds of denominations and confusing doctrine/teaching is because they DO NOT rightly divide. :bang:

Dispensational theology is the only way to have the Bible make sense. :first:

 

[godrulz]

Are you stating the dispensational theology has many problems?

Have you seen the state "Christianity" is in today? The main reason why there are hundreds of denominations and confusing doctrine/teaching is because they DO NOT rightly divide. :bang:

Dispensational theology is the only way to have the Bible make sense. :first:

Properly exegeting each verse, passage, and book in context will lead to correct understanding without a deductive, preconceived theology that is problematic.

 

[bling]

Glassman said:
I see no evidence for the need to be rebaptized. Water baptism was for the remisson of sins during the ministry of John and the apostles at pentecost.

1. There is the problem with shear numbers. “All came out to be baptized by John” and “all” is used 3 times in describing the people’s acceptance of John and his baptism, now all does not mean “all” in the way we use it, but does refer to the masses or vast majority (not the Jewish Spiritual leadership for example). How many would you estimate were baptized with John’s baptism both that heard Peter on the day of Pentecost and were in Jerusalem at that time? In Acts 2:41, were the 3000 added to all baptized by John’s baptism? The number of believers in Jerusalem multiplied, does that include those baptized by John’s baptism? Do you think, there were none in the crowd that crucified Christ that had accepted John’s Baptism or heard Peter’s speech? There is nothing said in Acts 2 about those previous baptized with John’s baptism, so are they part of the Christian group or non-Christian group and how would they become Christian according to Peter?
2. Acts 19: 5 On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. These were previously baptized with John’s baptism. The grammar of the passage suggests they did receive miraculous gifts of the Spirit after they were baptized (this suggest water baptism) and Paul laid his hands on them. Paul describes the incompleteness of John’s baptism.
3. Baptism is a sign tied to a new commitment or covenant. As Peter said: not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The water has no miraculous saving power, but it is a sign of our pledge to God and His pledge to us. The water baptism of the flood did not save Noah and His family, but it was a sign tied to the new covenant and new life. The people of Israel were baptized in the crossing of the Red Sea as a sign of a new covenant and commitment of God. Women converted and baptized into the Jewish faith were making a commitment to a new life. Those baptized by John’s baptism were committing to a reformation, new relationship based on love, forgiveness and repentance. Those that accepted Christian baptism were committing to Christ as their savior, being born again into a new life in Christ that included the indwelling Spirit.

Glasman said:
Future tense would apply to born of the Spirit (born again) but not born of water (natural birth).

Well my Greek is rusty, but let me try to explain what I remember: In John 3:3 Jesus said: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." Then in John 3:5 in response to Nicodemus want clarification Jesus restates what He said: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. It is very easy to see that “born again” in 3:3 = “born of water and the Spirit” in 3:5. It would not be logical for Jesus to add another concept into the second parallel statement said right after the first. “born again” was what Nicodemus was asking about not being born the first time, he understood that.

Glassman said:
Born again is of the Spirit (imperishable) not first birth of water (perishable).

Christian water baptism is a spiritual rebirth and not physical rebirth.

Glassman said:
Some problems yes, but not as many as you assume.

I hope I am not making any assumptions, but am basing the my statement on the problems I have investigated. We are limiting the discussion to baptism here.

 

[thelaqachisnext]

Are you stating the dispensational theology has many problems?

Have you seen the state "Christianity" is in today? The main reason why there are hundreds of denominations and confusing doctrine/teaching is because they DO NOT rightly divide. :bang:

Dispensational theology is the only way to have the Bible make sense. :first:

MAD doctrine is a false doctrine which makes a "middle man" of all born again Believers other than themselves, which doctrine has no light, no understanding, and from whom the seers and the prophets are covered. Mad dispensationalism is no sense at all, and those in it are blinded totally to Truth.
Mad doctrine follows a pseudo paul who is made up by men teaching false things not found in the Word of God, who lie about the Apostle Paul and his ministry and calling.

Paul the Apostle was a
Born Again,
water baptized,
Pentecostal,
tongues praying/speaking/singing
male,
circumcised,
Jew,
who circumcised others and taught Gentiles to not become circumcised when called into the Name of Salvation and taught Jews to not become uncircumcised when called into the Name of Salvation.

Paul the Apostle understood the one old man as all persons alive and dead who are born in Adam, who are born of the first male and female Adam, as seed of Adam multiplied and all in Adam as one bone/flesh/blood/spirit, and dead in that one spirit as son of God since the fall,

and Paul the Apostle understood the One New Man as all persons born a second time in the Spirit of the Firstborn of the second human being creation, Which Firstborn is the Living spirit, YHWH in the Person of the Word, come in that second human being creation flesh as Kinsman/Redeemer to the only other created son of God of the human being kind, Adam, the dead.

 

[Servo]

MAD doctrine is a false doctrine which makes a "middle man" of all born again Believers other than themselves, which doctrine has no light, no understanding, and from whom the seers and the prophets are covered. Mad dispensationalism is no sense at all, and those in it are blinded totally to Truth.
Mad doctrine follows a pseudo paul who is made up by men teaching false things not found in the Word of God, who lie about the Apostle Paul and his ministry and calling.

Paul the Apostle was a
Born Again,
water baptized,
Pentecostal,
tongues praying/speaking/singing
male,
circumcised,
Jew,
who circumcised others and taught Gentiles to not become circumcised when called into the Name of Salvation and taught Jews to not become uncircumcised when called into the Name of Salvation.

Paul the Apostle understood the one old man as all persons alive and dead who are born in Adam, who are born of the first male and female Adam, as seed of Adam multiplied and all in Adam as one bone/flesh/blood/spirit, and dead in that one spirit as son of God since the fall,

and Paul the Apostle understood the One New Man as all persons born a second time in the Spirit of the Firstborn of the second human being creation, Which Firstborn is the Living spirit, YHWH in the Person of the Word, come in that second human being creation flesh as Kinsman/Redeemer to the only other created son of God of the human being kind, Adam, the dead.

Do you believe someone can be saved if they are not water baptized?

Also, do you keep the Biblical food and clothing laws?

 

[thelaqachisnext]

Do you believe someone can be saved if they are not water baptized?

Also, do you keep the Biblical food and clothing laws?

Anyone who is truly saved believes the One Gospel, and if they continue to indwell their old Adam body on this earth -after their salvation- they are water baptized, or they make plans to obey Jesus Christ and be water baptized; even if they pass out of their old Adam before they can perform the act of being water baptized, if they are saved they have the will to perform the obedience, and they are water baptized to wash the old Adam they still wear- and by that act they confess their faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, in His New Man body for their redemption, and confess that they believe they died in His death to the old man and that in His resurrection they rise with Him, by faith, and they will rise in His image in physical fact, with their own body elementally changed at the rising from the dead of it, into His New Man image.
So if you aren't saved before you can perform the obedience to Jesus Chrsit which He commands you to do -if you truly come to Him and are born again in His Spirit- then you are not His disciple and you are not born again and He is not going to know you, no matter what you claim.

Obedience is commanded by Him, to His doctrine; if you claim His name, and you are His, then you will obey him, and you will not be lawless and follow a pseudo paul, which paul has no relation to the Apostle Paul who, himself, obeyed the LORD and rose and washed away His sins, calling on the name of the LORD.

There are no biblical food and clothing laws commanded for those not born in the circumcision, who come into His Salvation by adoption into His New Man Name.

Israel, His namesake people, performed the living oracles as signs of heavenly eternal truths. We who are redeemed have entered into His True Sabbath Rest which the seventh Day is only a sign of. -Still, it is a sign, and those who are born again in the circumcision, like Paul the Apostle, understand the signs for what they are: Oracles committed to them to perform until all is fulfilled.

Gentiles have no command to come under Moses, but the decalogue itself is written with the "finger of God" on the hearts of flesh of every born again Believer and they do not dwell in "sin" as enumerated in the decalogue.

All born again Believers are adopted sons of God and are themselves, together, the True Ark of the Covenant which Moses patterned, of the heavenly One, which itself was a type and shadow of the adopted sons under the Everlasting Covenant of the Atoning blood shed on the Mercy Seat body of the New Man, oncwe, for all in Adam [for whosoever will], and in each born again Believer, the "Law is sealed and the Testimony =Witness, Christ's Living Spirit, is 'bound'.

Isaiah 8:Isa 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.

 

[Servo]

Anyone who is truly saved believes the One Gospel, and if they continue to indwell their old Adam body on this earth -after their salvation- they are water baptized, or they make plans to obey Jesus Christ and be water baptized; even if they pass out of their old Adam before they can perform the act of being water baptized, if they are saved they have the will to perform the obedience, and they are water baptized to wash the old Adam they still wear- and by that act they confess their faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, in His New Man body for their redemption, and confess that they believe they died in His death to the old man and that in His resurrection they rise with Him, by faith, and they will rise in His image in physical fact, with their own body elementally changed at the rising from the dead of it, into His New Man image.
So if you aren't saved before you can perform the obedience to Jesus Christ which He commands you to do -if you truly come to Him and are born again in His Spirit- then you are not His disciple and you are not born again and He is not going to know you, no matter what you claim.

Obedience is commanded by Him, to His doctrine; if you claim His name, and you are His, then you will obey him, and you will not be lawless and follow a pseudo paul, which paul has no relation to the Apostle Paul who, himself, obeyed the LORD and rose and washed away His sins, calling on the name of the LORD.


Israel, His namesake people, performed the living oracles as signs of heavenly eternal truths. We who are redeemed have entered into His True Sabbath Rest which the seventh Day is only a sign of. -Still, it is a sign, and those who are born again in the circumcision, like Paul the Apostle, understand the signs for what they are: Oracles committed to them to perform until all is fulfilled.

Gentiles have no command to come under Moses, but the decalogue itself is written with the "finger of God" on the hearts of flesh of every born again Believer and they do not dwell in "sin" as enumerated in the decalogue.

All born again Believers are adopted sons of God and are themselves, together, the True Ark of the Covenant which Moses patterned, of the heavenly One, which itself was a type and shadow of the adopted sons under the Everlasting Covenant of the Atoning blood shed on the Mercy Seat body of the New Man, oncwe, for all in Adam [for whosoever will], and in each born again Believer, the "Law is sealed and the Testimony =Witness, Christ's Living Spirit, is 'bound'.

Isaiah 8:Isa 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.

Okay, let me get to the point, again. If someone repents and accepts Christ as their Saviour, put NEVER gets water baptized, I mean NEVER! And they die of old age, will they go to be with the Lord in Heaven. Yes or No?

There are no biblical food and clothing laws commanded for those not born in the circumcision, who come into His Salvation by adoption into His New Man Name.

So you basically agree with dispensationalists on this point. Except that Christ kept the food laws and they were later rescinded in Paul's writings.

To keep it simple, you do agree that some of the "house rules" changed in the Bible from time to time. Meaning, there were some symbolic laws that were to be kept and then later there were unnecessary?

 

[glassman]

Bling,

Are you assuming that those baptized by John were not Christians?
If so why not?

Why would those baptized by John need to be rebaptized in the name of Jesus?
When John baptized he proclaimed Jesus as the Christ.

How was John's baptism incomplete as compared to the apostles at pentecost?
Scripture please.

You said:
Those baptized by John’s baptism were committing to a reformation, new relationship based on love, forgiveness and repentance. Those that accepted Christian baptism were committing to Christ as their savior, being born again into a new life in Christ that included the indwelling Spirit.

Response:
Those baptized by John received remisssion of sins as did those at pentecost.

How did those at pentecost commit to Christ as savior differently from those that John baptized?

Proof text please for born again and indewelling Spirit at Pentecost.

You said:
Well my Greek is rusty, but let me try to explain what I remember: In John 3:3 Jesus said: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." Then in John 3:5 in response to Nicodemus want clarification Jesus restates what He said: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. It is very easy to see that “born again” in 3:3 = “born of water and the Spirit” in 3:5. It would not be logical for Jesus to add another concept into the second parallel statement said right after the first. “born again” was what Nicodemus was asking about not being born the first time, he understood that.

Response:
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Nic asked if it were possible to enter the womb a second time and be born again.

Jesus responded to Nic's question and said unless a man is born (not born again or reborn) of water and of the spirit he cannot enter.

Jesus then clarified his statement and said "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit".

Being born from the womb and then born of the spirit by faith is to be born again.

That two borns = one born again!!!!!

You said:
Christian water baptism is a spiritual rebirth and not physical rebirth.

Response:
That remains to be seen.

 

[thelaqachisnext]

[COLOR="[B]Red[/B]"]1[/COLOR] Okay, let me get to the point, again. If someone repents and accepts Christ as their Saviour, put NEVER gets water baptized, I mean NEVER! And they die of old age, will they go to be with the Lord in Heaven. Yes or No?

[COLOR="[B]Blue[/B]"]2[/COLOR] So you basically agree with dispensationalists on this point. Except that Christ kept the food laws and they were later rescinded in Paul's writings.

3 To keep it simple, you do agree that some of the "house rules" changed in the Bible from time to time. Meaning, there were some symbolic laws that were to be kept and then later there were unnecessary?

1 Why ask me? -What did Jesus say about it?
Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

2 Paul never rescinded any food laws given by Moses, and Paul kept Moses all his life, and circumcised Timothy, a half Jew, with his own hands, and commanded all Jews to remain in the circumcision when they were called into Jesus' Salvation and commanded all Gentiles to not become circumcised when they were called into Jesus' Salvation in His name.

3 All the law is symbolic, and all the law has double meanings, and Israel was chosen and adopted to show the Living Oracles of the One Way Plan.

Which symbolic laws are discarded [which can only be because of fulfillment]? -I would like to know what you are thinking on that, to answer you.

I do not agree with anything MAD doctrine teaches, but as a born again, Bible Believing, Water Baptized, Gentile, married freewoman, who is also a Pentecostal Believer -as Paul the Apostle was, I do believe the Word on the ingathering of the first harvest [which first harvest in the living oracles is typed in Pentecost], which is the time of the perfecting of the sons adopted in the New Man's image and take, as typed int he oracles, in the temple in heaven; while seven years of the Great Tribulation passes on earth.

 

[Pettrix]

MAD doctrine is a false doctrine which makes a "middle man" of all born again Believers other than themselves, which doctrine has no light, no understanding, and from whom the seers and the prophets are covered. Mad dispensationalism is no sense at all, and those in it are blinded totally to Truth.
Mad doctrine follows a pseudo paul who is made up by men teaching false things not found in the Word of God, who lie about the Apostle Paul and his ministry and calling.

Name-calling is done by people who cannot articulate and therefore resort to name-calling.

PLEASE ANSWER THE QUESTION:
If someone repents and accepts Christ as their Saviour, but NEVER gets water baptized, I mean NEVER! And they die of old age, will they go to be with the Lord in Heaven. Yes or No?

Please answer YES or NO, without "spinning" into a long diatribe :hammer:

 

[godrulz]

Name-calling is done by people who cannot articulate and therefore resort to name-calling.

PLEASE ANSWER THE QUESTION:
If someone repents and accepts Christ as their Saviour, but NEVER gets water baptized, I mean NEVER! And they die of old age, will they go to be with the Lord in Heaven. Yes or No?

Please answer YES or NO, without "spinning" into a long diatribe :hammer:

If anyone cares...yes. Baptismal regeneration is heretical in all dispensations.

 

[Servo]

1 Why ask me? -What did Jesus say about it?
Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

2 Paul never rescinded any food laws given by Moses, and Paul kept Moses all his life, and circumcised Timothy, a half Jew, with his own hands, and commanded all Jews to remain in the circumcision when they were called into Jesus' Salvation and commanded all Gentiles to not become circumcised when they were called into Jesus' Salvation in His name.

3 All the law is symbolic, and all the law has double meanings, and Israel was chosen and adopted to show the Living Oracles of the One Way Plan.

Which symbolic laws are discarded [which can only be because of fulfillment]? -I would like to know what you are thinking on that, to answer you.

I do not agree with anything MAD doctrine teaches, but as a born again, Bible Believing, Water Baptized, Gentile, married freewoman, who is also a Pentecostal Believer -as Paul the Apostle was, I do believe the Word on the ingathering of the first harvest [which first harvest in the living oracles is typed in Pentecost], which is the time of the perfecting of the sons adopted in the New Man's image and take, as typed int he oracles, in the temple in heaven; while seven years of the Great Tribulation passes on earth.

1) New question. Is it at all possible for you to answer a yes or no question?

2)1 Corinthians 8:8
But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse.

Colossians 2:16
So let no one judge you in food or in drink...

1 Corinthians 10:
25 Eat whatever is sold in the meat market, asking no questions for conscience’ sake; 26 for “the earth is the LORD’s, and all its fullness.”

31 Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

3) Again, do you, yourself, keep ANY of the food or clothing laws that Jesus kept? Why or why not?

 

[glassman]

If anyone cares...yes. Baptismal regeneration is heretical in all dispensations.

Bob Hill said:

We even see that Jesus told Nicodemus, in John 3:5, that if he wanted to enter into the kingdom of God, he must be born of water and of the Spirit.

This was the same message John began and the 11 apostles continued after Christ’s resurrection.

My response:

If John began this message and "born of water" is not a natural birth then they must have been "born again" of water when baptized by John.

Sounds like baptismal regeneration to me.

 

[thelaqachisnext]

Name-calling is done by people who cannot articulate and therefore resort to name-calling.

PLEASE ANSWER THE QUESTION:
If someone repents and accepts Christ as their Saviour, but NEVER gets water baptized, I mean NEVER! And they die of old age, will they go to be with the Lord in Heaven. Yes or No?

Please answer YES or NO, without "spinning" into a long diatribe :hammer:

Are you also shemei?
Accept Jesus' words for truth and stop trying to get concensus for MAD doctrine by stuffing the lies of MAD into other's mouths.
I gave Jesus' words in that post on the matter of obedience to His words, and the heart that is willing but has not had opportunity is accepted by Him, I said, even though the opportunity did not come, but what you want is an unwilling heart in rebellion who is following another gospel and promoting that to be accepted by the LORD and that rebel to have eternal Life in Him.

I answered the post with Jesus words and if you do not receive His words, what would mine count? -if you call Him LORD, you must obey Him.


I am glad that you believe that name calling is done by people who cannot articulate and therefore resort to name-calling, for on this board I have been called idiot more times tham I can count; a servant of satan and many such names, and a fool more than a few times and mocked greatly by those here who are here to promote MAD and not to be a Witness of the LORD Jesus Christ's Salvation in them by the Adoption into His One New MAn Spirit -which is the second birth we need if we will be accepted as adopted sons of God in the Beloved Son.

I have not resorted to such name-calling, but I call MAD doctrine false and the MAD doctrine paul a pseudo paul, and I list my reasons from Scripture for saying such, for Paul the apostle was a water baptized, born again, Pentecostal, tongues speaking/praying/singing, circumcising, male, Jew, who circumcised Timothy with his own hands and commanded the Corinthians "Do not forbid to speak in tongues", and to, "covet earnestly to prophesy", and who commanded those of the circumcision who were called into the Name of Jesus to not become uncircumcised and those who were called into the name of Jesus to not become circumcised.

There is no relation to the MAD pseudo paul to the Apostle Paul of Scripture, is there?

-are you trying to justify yourself for not believing Jesus by setting up a straw man to knock down?

Knock the strong rock over if you can -but I think it will rather crush you instead -as the dream vision Nebuchadnezzar the Gentile [who became a Believer in YHWH and who did not become a Jew, and was accepted by Him] saw would happen to the kingdoms of the world who oppose The Rock [Daniel 2] who is the everlasting unchanging Word, come in human flesh to be the Salvation of YHWH to the ends of the earth [Isaiah 49].

"Either you will fall upon that Rock, or that Rock will fall upon you and grind you to dust". -MAD doctrine hasn't a hope of surviving the examination of the WORD/ROCK, who is the JUDGE, who will judge all who follow it, and all who have trusted in MAD's pseudo gospel will be crushed along with with that false gospel, by the ROCK.

 

[thelaqachisnext]

If anyone cares...yes. Baptismal regeneration is heretical in all dispensations.

This isn't about regeneration by water baptism, but about those who are claiming to be regenerated obeying the LORD's commands. If one is not in obedience to Jesus, are they regenerated? -which term, regeneration, means "born again" of the Living Spirit, and made an adopted son of God in the Beloved Son's name.

 

[thelaqachisnext]

1) New question. Is it at all possible for you to answer a yes or no question?

2)1 Corinthians 8:8
But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse.

Colossians 2:16
So let no one judge you in food or in drink...

1 Corinthians 10:
25 Eat whatever is sold in the meat market, asking no questions for conscience’ sake; 26 for “the earth is the LORD’s, and all its fullness.”

31 Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

3) Again, do you, yourself, keep ANY of the food or clothing laws that Jesus kept? Why or why not?

Is it possible for you to read a reply and understand it?

Gentiles are not commanded to keep Moses, and I am a born again, water baptized, female, Pentecostal, married, Gentile; one in the same Living New Man Spirit with Paul the Apostle, who was a born again, water baptized, Pentecostal, male, unmarried, Jew; who circumcised Timothy [a half Jew] with his own hands; and who commanded not to become uncircumcised if called circumcised [he considered Timothy a Jew by having one parent of Israel] and who commanded to not become circumcised if called uncircumcised [meaning to not come under Moses]
And I do not keep Moses; and neither did Abraham, whose "seed" I am by the new birth of Spirit promised to him, in the name change.

Now, by your own quotes of Paul the Apostle's above, if I were observing food or days as a born again Gentile Believer [which I do not], you would be sinning to judge me for it -wouldn't you?, for Paul wrote not to judge one whom God has received.

Paul kept Moses all his life. I do not keep Moses and am not required to, and I have entered into the "commonwealth of Israel" by the adoption into the New Man, whose name as the second human being created, is Israel, who gave His New Man Name to Jacob and his seed as a sign of the adoption to come, in the One Living Spirit and One flesh of the One New Man, who is the promised Salvation [Yeshua] of the Gentiles and the Revelation [by the Light - second birth] of the Gentiles [to whosoever will] as promised in Isaiah 49 -please read that chapter and see that MAD doctrine is false, by YHWH's own words in that chapter

 

[Pettrix]

1Co 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel; not in wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling,
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism

VS.

Mar 1:4 John came baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Joh 1:31 And I did not know Him, but that He be revealed to Israel, therefore I have come baptizing with water.

Mar 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be condemned.

 

[godrulz]

Bob Hill said:

We even see that Jesus told Nicodemus, in John 3:5, that if he wanted to enter into the kingdom of God, he must be born of water and of the Spirit.

This was the same message John began and the 11 apostles continued after Christ’s resurrection.

My response:

If John began this message and "born of water" is not a natural birth then they must have been "born again" of water when baptized by John.

Sounds like baptismal regeneration to me.

There are several possible interpretations for this verse. It is not believer's NT baptism since this was before the Church started. Other clear verses like Jn. 1:12; 3:16, 36, etc. make faith, not baptism or works, the condition of salvation.

If it refers to John's baptism, the water only symbolized the repentance, which was the condition of salvation. Ritual cannot regenerate. External acts are symbolic of repentant faith and obedience, not salvific in themselves. This is clear from more explicit verses.