Water Baptism passed away in this dispensation

[Bob Hill]

Here are some things I believe the Bible shows us about baptism.

We can see from the Bible that there was only one baptism when John started his ministry.

Many ask if it was necessary for salvation.

I believe the Bible shows us that the answer is: Yes it was!

We even see that Jesus told Nicodemus, in John 3:5, that if he wanted to enter into the kingdom of God, he must be born of water and of the Spirit.

This was the same message John began and the 11 apostles continued after Christ’s resurrection.

Christ commanded the Eleven in Mark 16:15-16, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”

Peter insisted on the same requirement on the Jewish Day of Pentecost.
Acts 2:38. “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

Therefore, we see that water baptism was necessary before the Holy Spirit would baptize anyone.

These two baptisms happened for the first time, on Pentecost.

Water baptism was necessary for salvation. Then, Holy Spirit baptism took place.

From verses 2:14,22,36,38, and 39 we see that this happened while God was still dealing with Israel.

Acts 2:14,22,36,38,39 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 22 Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 “For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

Peter was only speaking to Israel in 22, and he was referring to the promise to Israel in 39.

Bob Hill

 

[Vaquero45]

It's a deeply entrenched tradition. I think people do it with a heart to honor God, which is great, but a correct understanding is preferable. Appreciate your teaching Pastor Hill, many thanks!

 

[ParsonJefferson]

Peter insisted on the same requirement on the Jewish Day of Pentecost.
Acts 2:38. “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

Therefore, we see that water baptism was necessary before the Holy Spirit would baptize anyone.

These two baptisms happened for the first time, on Pentecost.

Water baptism was necessary for salvation. Then, Holy Spirit baptism took place.

From verses 2:14,22,36,38, and 39 we see that this happened while God was still dealing with Israel.

Acts 2:14,22,36,38,39 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 22 Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 “For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

Peter was only speaking to Israel in 22, and he was referring to the promise to Israel in 39.

Bob Hill

It's interesting you mention Acts 2 - and the day of Pentecost - in this post.

Clearly the 3,000 were water baptized AFTER the giving of the Holy Spirit. Clearly the Ethiopean Eunich was water baptized AFTER the giving of the Holy Spirit. Clearly the apostle Paul was water baptized AFTER the giving of the Holy Spirit.

Something is not quite fitting together here.

 

[Vaquero45]

Acts 2:38. “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

The chronology is still accurate, as per Bob's post.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

Acts 2:38. “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

The chronology is still accurate, as per Bob's post.

Okay, by that argument, you and I today won't receive the Holy Spirit unless/until we are water baptized?

 

[Vaquero45]

Okay, by that argument, you and I today won't receive the Holy Spirit unless/until we are water baptized?

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. You appeared to be taking exception to Bob's chronology. The question is; (for this thread) is water baptism prescribed for the Body of Christ? Is baptism requisite, and/or a suggested nicety to the church today?

 

[ParsonJefferson]

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. You appeared to be taking exception to Bob's chronology. The question is; (for this thread) is water baptism prescribed for the Body of Christ? Is baptism requisite, and/or a suggested nicety to the church today?

Personally, I think that Bob is probably a fantastic guy - but that he has some rather, shall we say, "interesting" takes on a lot of things.

We see no evidence, in the New Testament, that water baptism was ever "dropped" or ceased to be done. Also, we see evidence from early church fathers that water baptism was the norm at that time. Polycarp of Smyrna, Ireneaus, Justin Martyr and Bishop Cyprian are all 2nd & 3rd century Christians who wrote about water baptism.

To say that water baptism somehow was eliminated by the apostle Paul is certainly swimming upstream against overwhelming evidence from history.

 

[godrulz]

I also believe that water baptism was essential for salvation during the time that Christ was on earth and the 12 Apostles were His gospel preachers.

When God raised up the Apostle Paul, at first Paul baptized, later in his ministry we see that he no lovnger did that.

Bob

Why would Paul do it early in his ministry if he received a new gospel?

 

[godrulz]

It's a deeply entrenched tradition. I think people do it with a heart to honor God, which is great, but a correct understanding is preferable. Appreciate your teaching Pastor Hill, many thanks!

Its deeply rooted in Scripture, actually.

 

[godrulz]

Acts 2:38. “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

The chronology is still accurate, as per Bob's post.

This is a reference to the Pentecostal experience evidenced by tongues, not the initial reception of the Spirit upon regeneration through faith in Christ.

 

[Bob Hill]

Again, beleif came before water baptism when Christ was giving the truth for salvation.

Acts 2:36-38 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Bob

 

[Bob Hill]

And thanks again Vaquero45!!

Bob Hill

 

[ParsonJefferson]

Again, beleif came before water baptism when Christ was giving the truth for salvation.

Acts 2:36-38 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Bob

Yes, this is true.

But are you connecting "when Christ was giving the truth" to Acts 2 - because the sermon recorded in Acts 2 was Peter's. And Pentecost was the advent of the Church. It would seem extremely odd that water baptism would be intended as a one-time command.

 

[godrulz]

Again, beleif came before water baptism when Christ was giving the truth for salvation.

Acts 2:36-38 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” 37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Bob

Belief always precedes water baptism unless it is an unregenerate person doing a meaningless ritual.

The gift of the Spirit is the Pentecostal experience with tongues, not to be confused with regeneration at conversion.

The exact order of water vs Pentecostal Spirit baptism is not significant as long as we recognize that one must receive Christ and His Spirit upon repentant faith. I would not read too much into historical narratives that record various patterns.

The normative pattern is conversion, water baptism and/or Pentecostal infilling (some Pentecostals receive the experience before, at, or after water baptism...no one receives it before conversion...in Acts 2, all 3 experiences happened the same day).

 

[thelaqachisnext]

Bob Hill,
It is very wrong of you to teach the false doctrine that Paul the Apostle had the authority to do away with the Great commission and that he even canceled it.

In 1 Corinthians, Paul even says you are in the flesh, carnal, not in the Spirit, for the practicing of Strife, saying: "I am of Paul"

Paul says he is glad he didn't baptize them in water -except for the some of them which he did water baptize- lest they should say he had water baptized them in 'his own name'! -Paul is speaking to water baptized carnal believers who follow men, instead of Christ Jesus, and in no way, manner, doctrine or form of any theology is Paul dismissing the Great commission, even admitting they are all water baptized in the "Name of Jesus".

 

[thelaqachisnext]

Why would Paul do it early in his ministry if he received a new gospel?

True, Godrulz.

He never got a new Gospel. If he had, he would have been a false prophet and guilty of "changing the times and the seasons"; which is of course what that devil's coming "son" will do.

When the fullness of the "times" [preappointed from the beginning of the world] was come, God sent forth His Son...

God has in these last days [and the last days began with the birth of the Son of God as Son of Man] spoken unto us by His Son...

There's nothing more to add to the Good News of the coming of the Son of God, to fullfill the promises made from the beginning of the world to be the Savior of all Adamkind.

Paul the Apostle could only tell of Him who had already come -and did so, as a sent one who never lived and ate and traveled with the LORD of Glory, who only had Him revealed to himself as one born out of the "season".

It is significant that the Merciful LORD sent Barnabus, one of the 70 disciples who was a companion of Jesus and witness of Jesus' words and life to get Saul, to be appointed to be Saul's personal companion, instructing Saul in the life and ministry of the LORD Jesus as they dwelt together and traveled together.
Saul preached to em -and they all got water baptized in the Name of the LORD Jesus: those Saul didn't dunk, Barnabus did -or Luke, or Timothy, or any of the others,

 

[godrulz]

I agree and must insist that the person and work of Christ that was culminated on the cross/resurrection/Pentecost is the pivotal issue relating to the gospel, NOT the conversion and ministry of Paul who merely proclaimed the gospel and person of Christ, even as Peter did at Pentecost. There is Old and New Covenant, not OT, circumcision gospel and uncircumcision gospel.

 

[jeremiah]

Jeremiah,


I have never been water baptized. I believe water baptism passed away during Paul's ministry.

Bob

Thanks for your direct answer to a question. Not that I know thousands of believers, but you are now the first believer that I know of, who has been one for a while, who has not for whatever reason, conviction or pressure, not been baptized.

This shows me that you really do believe what you teach, and I have to admire you for that.


There is still an unanswered question out there, for you, from me.

After you have the Body of Christ gone, before the tribulation starts, and the Holy Spirit gone??????? as most pre-tribbers teach? How do the tribulation saints get "saved": By, Jesus-Peter's gospel, Paul's gospel, or a different, third, gospel. Do you have a theory on that, or will they just have to wait and see what that next dispensation???????? brings?

 

[Bob Hill]

jeremiah,

You asked:

After you have the Body of Christ gone, before the tribulation starts, and the Holy Spirit gone??????? as most pre-tribbers teach? How do the tribulation saints get "saved": By, Jesus-Peter's gospel, Paul's gospel, or a different, third, gospel. Do you have a theory on that, or will they just have to wait and see what that next dispensation???????? brings?

I do not believe the Holy Spirit, the Son, or the Father are necessarily gone during the tribulation.

Those in the tribulation who believed, would get saved by responding to the things that are written in the book of Revelation, such as Rev 1:3 “Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.”

Since I believe the Apostle John wrote the book of Revelation, I think the gospel that John preached would be similar to the gospel they had to believe.

Since Revelation does not use the words we are used to, but emphasizes tribulation, it is difficult to be dogmatic about the method of salvation at that future time.

Bob Hill

 

[godrulz]

The Churches in Revelation 2; 3 were also Gentile, not a supposed circumcision/Jewish Christian only.