Water Baptism passed away in this dispensation

jeremiah

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jeremiah,

You asked:


I do not believe the Holy Spirit, the Son, or the Father are necessarily gone during the tribulation.

Those in the tribulation who believed, would get saved by responding to the things that are written in the book of Revelation, such as Rev 1:3 “Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.”

Since I believe the Apostle John wrote the book of Revelation, I think the gospel that John preached would be similar to the gospel they had to believe.

Since Revelation does not use the words we are used to, but emphasizes tribulation, it is difficult to be dogmatic about the method of salvation at that future time.

Bob Hill


Thanks again for an answer.

You are not sure, but it sounds like you are leaning towards the gospel that Jesus and the apostles {John} preached.

I am again surprised by you in that, as a pre-tribber, you do not emphatically state that the Holy Spirit is gone after the rapture. I am sure you are aware that most pre-tribbers are quite proud of the fact that the "he" in 2 thess 6 and 7 almost assuredly, according to their "special" knowledge of such things, must be the Holy Spirit. And since the Holy Spirit was given to the "Church" that is the trump card in their whole pre trib theory.

A man who believes in two gospels, and has never been baptized, and a pre-tribber who is not adamant that the Holy Spirit departs with the Church at the rapture, as the "mysterious" restrainer of second Thessalonians.

You are an interesting person!

:)
 

godrulz

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The Holy Spirit is omnipresent. He cannot be 'gone'. His presence in believers (Church) can be removed as the salt and light of the earth are raptured before the Tribulation, but His person and work will continue through the 144,000, 2 Witnesses, Tribulation saints, etc. during the Trib.
 

jeremiah

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The Holy Spirit is omnipresent. He cannot be 'gone'. His presence in believers (Church) can be removed as the salt and light of the earth are raptured before the Tribulation, but His person and work will continue through the 144,000, 2 Witnesses, Tribulation saints, etc. during the Trib.


Yes, I agree with you. I am simply trying to shoot holes in the argument given by almost all pre-tribbers that I run into. They confidently assert that the "he" who now restrains in 2Thess 2-7 is the Holy Spirit.

I assert that the restrainer is Michael the archangel according to Daniel 10-21.

Gabriel was apparently held up for 21 days, until Michael arrived and restrained the evil principalities, so that Gabriel could then leave, and deliver the message to Daniel.

Michael is elsewhere called the "prince" over the people Israel.

When he stands down, and stops "restraining" Satanic forces, and protecting Israel, then the time of Jacob's trouble begins. The last 3 and 1/2 years of the tribulation period, called the Great Tribulation, or the time of Jacob's trouble.

I at least have a biblical example I can use for Michael as the restrainer.

That is not the "job" description of the Holy Spirit, and besides "He" capital H, can not be "taken out of the way". That whole interpretation is so forced, it makes pre-tribbers even more suspect in my mind.
 

godrulz

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I have never heard that theory before, but I have seen good arguments for the 'Holy Spirit throught the Church' interpretation.
 

Bob Hill

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Since we are in agreement on some things, here is a subject back to this thread's original purpose.

We can see from the Bible that there was only one baptism when John started his ministry.

Many ask if it was necessary for salvation. I believe the Bible shows us that the answer was: Yes!

We even see that Jesus told Nicodemus, in John 3:5, that if he wanted to enter into the kingdom of God, he must be born of water and of the Spirit. This was the same message John began and the 12 apostles continued after Christ’s resurrection.

Christ commanded the Eleven in Mark 16:15,16 “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”

Peter insisted on the same requirement on the Jewish Day of Pentecost in Acts 2:38.
Acts 2:38 “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

Therefore, we see that water baptism was necessary before the Holy Spirit would spiritually baptize anyone, at that time.

These two baptisms happened for the first time, on the day of Pentecost.

Water baptism, at that time, was necessary for salvation.

Then, Holy Spirit baptism took place.

From verses 2:14,22,36,38, and 39 we see that this happened while God was still dealing with Israel.
Acts 2:14,22,36,38,39 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

Peter was speaking only to Israel in 22, and he was referring to the promise to Israel in verse 39.

Bob Hill
 

Bob Hill

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When the Apostle Paul got saved, because God had started a new dispensation with Paul, all kinds of different things began to happen.

First, I hope you will read Gal 1:11-2:9.
Gal 1:11-2:9 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ. 13 For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it. 14 And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, 16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus. 18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him fifteen days. 19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother. 20 (Now concerning the things which I write to you, indeed, before God, I do not lie.) 21 Afterward I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia. 22 And I was unknown by face to the churches of Judea which were in Christ. 23 But they were hearing only, “He who formerly persecuted us now preaches the faith which he once tried to destroy.” 24 And they glorified God in me.
Galatians 2:1-9: Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain. 3 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. 4 And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage), 5 to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you. 6 But from those who seemed to be something - whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man - for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me. 7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.

Peter got a vision in Acts 10 which showed that Israel had been set aside. They were no longer God’s special people. This was shown by the vision given to Peter when the law of clean and unclean animals was set aside (Lev 20:24-26). Then, Peter was sent to a Gentile and told by the Holy Spirit to doubt nothing (Acts 10:20).

But, the most significant event happened when Peter went to the Gentiles.

When they believed, the Holy Spirit interrupted Peter’s message before he could tell them to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins.

In fact, the Holy Spirit fell on all the Gentiles while Peter was still preaching.

The Jews who accompanied Peter were amazed.

This, indeed, was a dispensational sign from God that something had changed.

What had changed? God had started a new program when He saved Paul.

However, since God would only reveal the new message to the Apostle Paul, Peter was still preaching the same message he had always preached (Acts 10:34-43).

Remember now, at first there was only one baptism, John’s. It was necessary for salvation.

Then things started changing when Paul was saved.

First, the Holy Spirit fell on Gentiles before they were water baptized. Remember, water baptism was a sign to Jews to show Christ to them.

Sometime during his second missionary journey the Apostle Paul told the body of Christ about the baptisms which they knew of, in this manner: “I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius . . . . For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel” 1 Cor 1:14-17 “I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name. 16 Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.” If baptism was necessary for salvation at the time Paul is saying this, then all the people he led to the Lord, really weren’t saved. But they were saved without being baptized.

Instead, in the same epistle, Paul wrote in 1 Cor 12:13, “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body; whether Jews or Greeks”. So, water baptism had changed from being the only baptism, and necessary for salvation, to a ritual which had faded away.

Bob Hill
 

glassman

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Bob,

You said:
We can see from the Bible that there was only one baptism when John started his ministry.

Many ask if it was necessary for salvation. I believe the Bible shows us that the answer was: Yes!

We even see that Jesus told Nicodemus, in John 3:5, that if he wanted to enter into the kingdom of God, he must be born of water and of the Spirit. This was the same message John began and the 12 apostles continued after Christ’s resurrection.

Response:
I don't see that "born of water" is related to John's baptism but maybe more to a natural birth. Are you saying those water baptized durning John's ministry were born again? I don't believe Christ is telling Nicodemus that one must be 'born again' of water to enter the kingdom of God.

You said:
Christ commanded the Eleven in Mark 16:15,16 “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”

Peter insisted on the same requirement on the Jewish Day of Pentecost in Acts 2:38.
Acts 2:38 “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

Therefore, we see that water baptism was necessary before the Holy Spirit would spiritually baptize anyone, at that time.

These two baptisms happened for the first time, on the day of Pentecost.

Water baptism, at that time, was necessary for salvation.

Then, Holy Spirit baptism took place.

My response:

Please explain with proof text how "gift of the Holy Spirit" is a reference to Spirit baptism.
 

Minerva

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Ephesians 2 : 8-9

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Does this not teach that salvation is given by God's grace, and stress that salvation is not merited by any work.... which would include baptism?

"For by grace are saved, through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. Not of works lest any man should boast." Baptism is an act or work the and the New Testament teaches that works do not save or have any saving merit. (Also see Romans 4:5, Titus 3:5).
Baptism, church membership, nor any good works does not impart salvation. Salvation is an act of God, when we by faith accept the free gift of salvation. A performed work offered to God for Him to accept for our salvation is in fact asking God to accept our works, not Christ's for our redemption. Christ died on the cross and paid the sin debt of the world (1 John 2:2). The debt is already paid by Christ and He is offering to forgive our sins if we believe and put our trust in His provision of our salvation. Saying that baptism saves is saying that we are adding to what Christ did in suffering for our sins and providing in part our own salvation. Of course man is a sinner and cannot offer anything he can do as a offering for his sin (Rom. 3:10, 24. A man who believes by faith in Jesus Christ is accepting Christ's suffering and sacrifice for his sins. (Rom 3:24). "
 

Pettrix

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One problem. Your interpretation of the New Testament disregards Church tradition. The sacrament of water baptisim was practiced by the early Church.

Church "tradition" is just that TRADITION.:bang:

Mar 7:13 making the Word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have delivered. And you do many such things.

Col 2:8 Beware lest anyone rob you through philosophy and vain deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the elements of the world, and not according to Christ.
 
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Pettrix

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Bob,

I don't see that "born of water" is related to John's baptism but maybe more to a natural birth. Are you saying those water baptized durning John's ministry were born again? I don't believe Christ is telling Nicodemus that one must be 'born again' of water to enter the kingdom of God.

When one applies Scripture properly and literally, it is VERY clear to see that WATER BAPTISM WAS a requirement for salvation in the gospels and early Acts period. The verses say what they mean.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Many, many, many other verses show that water baptism WAS required for salvation. So you are left with a dilemma.

The problem is that most churches/pastors try and "spiritualize" those passages because they do not understand that there was a CHANGE in the program after the ushering in of the Apostle Paul. Look at the contrasting verses:

Mat 28:19 Therefore go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all things, whatever I commanded you. And, behold, I am with you all the days until the end of the world. Amen.

VS.

1Co 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel; not in wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

These are not contradictory but opposite commands by God. A change in Gods program occurred.

Eph 3:1 For this cause, I, Paul, am the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you nations,
Eph 3:2 if you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given to me toward you,
Eph 3:3 that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I wrote before in few words,
Eph 3:4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph 3:5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it is now revealed to His holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit,

Water baptism is NOT for today.
 

Vaquero45

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Yes, I agree with you. I am simply trying to shoot holes in the argument given by almost all pre-tribbers that I run into. They confidently assert that the "he" who now restrains in 2Thess 2-7 is the Holy Spirit.

I assert that the restrainer is Michael the archangel according to Daniel 10-21.

Gabriel was apparently held up for 21 days, until Michael arrived and restrained the evil principalities, so that Gabriel could then leave, and deliver the message to Daniel.

Michael is elsewhere called the "prince" over the people Israel.

When he stands down, and stops "restraining" Satanic forces, and protecting Israel, then the time of Jacob's trouble begins. The last 3 and 1/2 years of the tribulation period, called the Great Tribulation, or the time of Jacob's trouble.

I at least have a biblical example I can use for Michael as the restrainer.

That is not the "job" description of the Holy Spirit, and besides "He" capital H, can not be "taken out of the way". That whole interpretation is so forced, it makes pre-tribbers even more suspect in my mind.

This doesnt add much to the conversation, but my mom is going to a Bible study on Daniel where the teacher is presenting the same thing youre saying here. "The restrainer is Michael". She's going to give me some notes on it soon. Interesting.
 

glassman

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Pettrix:

My questions were to Mr Hill but since He acknowledged your post i will assume your are speaking for him.

All verses say what they mean and I agree that water baptism was required for remission of sins durning the ministry of John and the twelve.

Bob used "born of water" in Joh 3:5 as a proof text for water baptism under
the ministry of Jesus. Please provide any scripture on how the word "born" relates to John's baptism. How were they born of water? I just want to make sure that the words of Jesus were applied properly.

I would also like to know how "gift of the Holy Ghost" was determined by Bob to mean Spirit baptism.

I have become very interested in dispensationalism because i believe it is a tool that helps reveal scriptural truth.
 

godrulz

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This doesnt add much to the conversation, but my mom is going to a Bible study on Daniel where the teacher is presenting the same thing youre saying here. "The restrainer is Michael". She's going to give me some notes on it soon. Interesting.

I wonder if this is a Seventh Day Adventist idea?
 

Vaquero45

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I wonder if this is a Seventh Day Adventist idea?


Couldn't tell you. The way my mom was describing it pretty much followed what Jeremiah said here. She thought (or atleast the teacher thought?) the idea logically led to a post-trib rapture, I haven't seen that fleshed out yet.

Added: I've read Bob Hill's pamphlet on the rapture and like it, also attended one of his classes where he taught on it. I'm not very good on the subject myself. Need to read it again, and study the topic a lot more.
 

bling

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Glassman said:
All verses say what they mean and I agree that water baptism was required for remission of sins durning the ministry of John and the twelve.
I would suggest that baptism was used similar to the baptism of women that were converted to Judaism as a simple of their commitment to a belief. In the case of “remission of sin” that believe was in the forgiving Love of God and not to the earning of salvation through works, but the reliance on the Christ.
The Christian baptism was different then John’s Baptism and included the receiving of the indwelling Spirit. Acts 19: 1-7. Those previously baptized with John’s baptism after Pentecost appear to have been re-baptized.

Glassman said:
Bob used "born of water" in Joh 3:5 as a proof text for water baptism under
the ministry of Jesus. Please provide any scripture on how the word "born" relates to John's baptism. How were they born of water? I just want to make sure that the words of Jesus were applied properly.

There are several reasons for thinking born again meant being baptized. Today people have tried to justify water birth as being natural birth from the wound, but of the 48,000 ancient Greek manuscripts some talk about birth, but never call it a water birth. The way Jesus states the being born again and water birth suggest something Nicodemus was to do and had not already done, the tense is future. The whole idea of being born again has to do with a new covenant like the Earth being born again with the baptism in the Flood.
1 Peter 3: 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[e] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
1Peter 1 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
1 Peter 1 In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

At this time in Nicodemus spiritual life, he did not need a lot of academic knowledge, his next step was to accept John’s Baptism, which is what Jesus would have been talking to him about. Jesus is always trying to help us with our next step.

Glassman asked:
I would also like to know how "gift of the Holy Ghost" was determined by Bob to mean Spirit baptism.
That is a good question. There appears to be only three Holy Spirit baptisms recorded: Acts 2, Acts 4:31 and Acts 10. Peter refers way back to the beginning Acts 2 baptism when he describes the Acts’ 10 baptism Holy Spirit baptism in Acts 11. Gifts of the Spirit seem to come either through this Holy Spirit baptism or the laying on of the Apostles’ hands.

Glassman said:
I have become very interested in dispensationalism because i believe it is a tool that helps reveal scriptural truth.

You might want to give it more study, for there are lots of problems.
 

glassman

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Bling,

You said:
The Christian baptism was different then John’s Baptism and included the receiving of the indwelling Spirit. Acts 19: 1-7. Those previously baptized with John’s baptism after Pentecost appear to have been re-baptized.

Response:
I see no evidence for the need to be rebaptized. Water baptism was for the remisson of sins during the ministry of John and the apostles at pentecost.

You said:
The way Jesus states the being born again and water birth suggest something Nicodemus was to do and had not already done, the tense is future.

Response:
Future tense would apply to born of the Spirit (born again) but not born of water (natural birth).

1 Peter 3: 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[e] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
1Peter 1 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
1 Peter 1 In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

Response:
Born again is of the Spirit (imperishable) not first birth of water (perishable).

You said:
At this time in Nicodemus spiritual life, he did not need a lot of academic knowledge, his next step was to accept John’s Baptism, which is what Jesus would have been talking to him about. Jesus is always trying to help us with our next step.

Response:
Jesus was responding to Nic questioning about again entering the womb.

You said:
You might want to give it more study, for there are lots of problems.

Response:
Some problems yes, but not as many as you assume.
 

Minerva

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glassman - go to your USER CP (at the top of the page to the left) and under your profile options, turn on the feature that allows people to PM (private message) you. :p
 
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