Bling:
You said:
John asked for clarification toward the end of his life. Luke 7:19-21.
Apollo knew only John’s baptism and had to have further instruction. Acts 18: 26.
The group of 12 men new only the baptism of John and thus knew nothing concerning the Holy Spirit. Acts 19: 1-7.
“John prepared the way” as you and scripture say and did not present the way as the apostle did (no one after Pentecost is said to be “preparing the way”). The Christians became members of the “Way”. Acts 9:2.
My response:
No one is said to be preparing the way because Jesus came during John's ministry.
What exactly does "the way" mean to you ?
Acts 19:1-5
1) And it happened in the time Apollos was at Corinth, Paul was passing through the higher parts to Ephesus. And finding certain disciples,
2) he said to them, Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed?
And they said to him, We did not so much as hear whether the Holy Spirit is.
3) And he said to them, Then to what were you baptized? And they said, To John's baptism.
They had not heard of the Holy Spirit!
That is no different than to say they had not heard John preach.
What did John preach Bling? Do you know?
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Matt. 3:11
You said:
Baptism is emersion or dipping and is not referred to as a sprinkling of water on the people. There was emersion in the O.T. like Noah and the Israelites through the Red Sea. There were some ceremonial cleanings, but baptism is not referred to as being a cleansing ceremony. John is not asking the people to come out and be cleansed.
Could you give me scripture for the masses of Jews being routinely baptized?
My response:
Water immersion was performed before John the baptist.
Study the histroy of Judaism concerning baptism!
You said:
What does that have to do with the issue?
The evidence above (with scripture reference) is that there were way to many Jews baptized with John’s baptism to be included in the 5000 men believers in Acts 4:4. How can the conclusion not be: John baptism could not have made you a Christian?
My response:
Believing in Jesus as the Massiah made all during John's ministry Christians and John preached Christ and many were baptized believing in the Messiah.
You said:
Could you give me any scripture reference to any human during the time of Christ on earth prior to his crucifixion, knowing that Jesus would go to the cross, be buried and rise three days later?
My response:
Jesus revealed it but it wasn't accepted:
Mat 26:61 And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.
Mat 26:62 And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
Mat 26:63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mat 26:65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.
Mat 26:66 What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.
You said:
That is totally an assumption on your part, show me why “Dry baptism is more of a possibility”?
My response:
Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
Joh 4:11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
Joh 4:12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
Joh 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
Joh 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
What do you believe this living water is?
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, Eph. 5:26 (KJV)
That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Eph. 5:27 (KJV)
It is clearly stated that Christ washes (baptizes) with the word.
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1 Pet. 1:23 (KJV)
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. John 12:48 (KJV)
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Cor. 12:13
For the body is not one member, but many. 1 Cor. 12:14
The Lord is that Spirit (2 Cor 3:17) and the Spirit is Christ (Roms 8:9). Christ Jesus is the agent and the word (Eph 5:26) He spoke of His shed blood (Matt 26:28) is the element.
This baptism by the Spirit cleanses man on the inside and has nothing to do with the flesh (John 6:63). This baptism is also accomplished without water. The element of this cleansing must be received inwardly by believing the words of the new testament and thus we "drink" into the Spirit. We receive this spiritually (the breath of God enters into us), we do not drink His blood. This message was veiled by the flesh of Jesus and the apostles did not comprehend it. Spirit baptism by the power of God accomplished what water baptism could not do in that it eternally cleansed the heart of sinners.
You said:
At water baptism we do not receive the miraculous gifts of the Spirit that goes with being baptized with the Spirit or the laying on of the apostles hands, but we do receive the indwelling portion of the Spirit that is not outwardly seen. That indwell portion is what all Christians receive today, for there are no more apostles around to lay hands on people and there has not been any baptisms of the Spirit since the very early church days. John’s baptism did not provide the indwelling Spirit.
My response:
God chose not to give it until Christ ascended.
Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
If John had not been beheaded he would have been preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission 9mARK 1:4) of sins as did the apostles at pentecost (Acts 2:38)
You said:
There is definitely Holy Spirit Baptism in Acts 2:1-4. Those water Baptized (which is an act of Spiritual worship John 4:23) in Acts 2:38 did receive the Holy Spirit. Acts 8:9-25 shows people being water baptized and not receiving miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit until later when the apostles came and lade hands on them. This does not mean those baptized did not receive the hidden individual indwelling portion of the Spirit required of all believers Rms 8:11. There are lots of references to baptism, but only two for Holy Spirit Baptism Acts 2 and 10.
My response:
Strange that not one mention of "baptism" by the Spirit.
The baptism at Pentecost was with water.
You said:
This does nothing to address the question.
The closes thing to John’s baptism I can find is in secular Jewish traditions of baptizing a female convert to the Jewish religion. What are you talking about?
If water baptism is a act of worship instituted by Christ does it also not have to be “in Spirit and truth” John 4:23.
My response:
Baptism or Mikveh
Tevilah ("immersion” in Hebrew) is recited during the Jewish mikveh ritual. The ritual immersion commanded in Mosaic law form the basis for the Judaic mikveh laws. Ancient sages who formulated these rules agreed that the purpose of mikveh was spiritual rather than physical cleansing. They taught that the mikveh cleanses the unclean yet it was only a shadow of the spiritual cleansing performed by the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5). The roots of baptism rest deeply and permanently within Jewish tradition. Baptism in the gospels and mikveh tradition teach the ritual has the power to cleanse the hearts of men.
Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Mark 7:7 (KJV)
For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. Mark 7:8 (KJV)
In the old testament we read that before giving the Law on Mount Sinai, God commanded the people to wash as an act of purification (Exodus 19:11). The Mosaic law records the washing of Aaron (Lev. 8:6) and his sons when they were ordained as priests to minister in the holy tabernacle. God commanded Aaron (Lev. 16:4) to wash himself before he ministered in the Holy of Holies on the Day of Atonement. This priestly cleansing by immersion prepared Israel as a nation for the priesthood during the ministry of John the Baptist.
Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: (Ex. 19:5)
And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel (Ex. 19:6).
John was that voice crying in the wilderness!
For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight (Matt. 3:3).
The Hebrew word mikveh means "a collection or gathering together," in this context it refers to a gathering of the nations at Pentecost for the purpose of ritual cleansing. The earliest Biblical uses of the word "mikveh" occur in I Kings 7:23 and in 11 Chronicles 4:2 describing the huge circular "Sea of Solomon" constructed along with the first Temple for the priests to carry out their ceremonial washing.
The only Biblical requirement for entrance into the covenant was circumcision, baptism by tradition was added. No one knows exactly when the requirements were changed to include baptism, but it was before the time of Jesus placing it within the period of the Mosaic law.
Mikveh was a vital part of Jewish life well before the time of John the Baptist. One finds Mikvehs in medieval Spain, in ancient Italy and in desert outpost of Masada. The way archaeologists determine whether or not a dig is Jewish is the presence of a Mikveh. This is recorded in halacha (Jewish law) which states that before the synagogue is built, a Mikveh must be established.
Maimonides (1135-1204), a Jewish codifier of the Torah had this to say concerning converts to Judaism:
"By three things did Israel enter into the Covenant: by circumcision, and baptism and sacrifice. Circumcision was in Egypt, as it is written: 'No uncircumcised person shall eat thereof' (Exodus 12:48). Baptism was in the wilderness, just before giving of the Law, as it is written: 'Sanctify them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their clothes' (Exodus 19:10). And sacrifice, as it is said: 'And he sent young men of the children of Israel which offered burnt offerings' (Exodus 24:5)...When a gentile is willing to enter the covenant...He must be circumcised and be baptized and bring a sacrifice...And at this time when there is no sacrifice, they must be circumcised and be baptized; and when the Temple shall be built, they are to bring a sacrifice...The gentile that is made a proselyte and the slave that is made free,
behold he is like a child new born."
Gentiles of today who convert to Judaism must undergo baptism in a mikveh ritual. The purpose of this ceremonial immersion is believed to grant spiritual cleansing, as Maimonides stated in his codification of the laws of mikveh. Peter reflected this same belief when he required the Gentile Cornelius to be baptized.
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? Acts 10:47 (KJV)
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. Acts 10:35 (KJV)
The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all
Acts 10:36 (KJV)
Using water to cleanse is an ancient Jewish tradition. When John the Baptist came on the scene he preached a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins (Mark 1:4) as did Peter (Acts 2:38) at Pentecost when the nations were gathered together. The Jews saw nothing pagan or wrong in John’s demands that people repent and be cleansed in the Jordan River."Baptist" or “baptizer“, comes from the Greek verb baptidzo, which has the same meaning as the Hebrew root taval: to wash by dipping or plunging in water. John's message was in keeping with what all the other Jewish prophets proclaimed. He preached God's judgment, warning that Israel must repent and be water baptized because of the coming of the Messiah was at hand. The self-righteous may have disagreed but they had no problem with John's method of cleansing. If it had been anything other than their normal tradition the religious leaders would have had him stoned as a false prophet.
John baptized Jesus and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" (John 1 :29). Jesus was perfect and sinless, John’s baptism prepared Him as both Priest and Sacrifice for Israel. In the days Christ walked this earth the Mosaic law was still in effect, those who repented and were cleansed by John in the river still brought animal sacrifices to the Temple to receive God's forgiveness. But after Christ gave his life as an atonement for sin, removing the law (Col. 2:14), baptism became a Spiritual operation of God that places us into the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13).
The New Covenant or New Testament requires faith in the blood of Christ for remission (Rom. 3:25) as the eternal means for spiritual cleansing. Spiritual baptism is the washing away of sin (Titus 3:5) and uncleanness by the blood of Christ, and the giving of new life by God's Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13).The New Testament scriptures teach that by faith we are plunged or buried into his atoning death (I Cor. 12:13), so that God might raise us even as Christ himself rose from the dead by the operation of God.
Maimonides listed the three requirements for Judaism as circumcision, baptism and sacrifice, in that order. Maimonides waived the requirement of sacrifice until the Temple should be rebuilt yet failed to realize that God never waived that requirement. God sent the Messiah before the Temple was destroyed, so that all who believed in him would not be left without an acceptable sacrifice for sin. Modern Christianity confuses the biblical order, the sacrifice comes first then water baptism as a symbol of their faith. The correct order is revealed in the gospels as the Baptist prepared Israel as priest with water baptism to receive Jesus who was the Sacrifice. The confusion in the order is based on a misunderstanding of the purpose and place water baptism had in the roots of Judaism. The scriptures do not teach water baptism as symbolic of what be believe but they reveal it as a cleansing ritual under the Mosaic law to prepare for the Sacrifice. Because of Christ's sacrifice, believers are cleansed spiritually and forgiven of their sin. Paul described it this way in his New Testament letter to the Gentile believers:
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (Col. 2:9)
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: (Col. 2:10)
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (Col. 2:11)
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. (Col. 2:12)
Before Christ died one had to be circumcised and baptized to be brought under God's covenant, the New Testament is inward and visible only to God. By his Spirit, he inscribes his law upon the hearts of all those who commit themselves to him through faith in Jesus’ sacrifice (Jeremiah 31:33). The Scriptures teach that Jews and Gentiles by faith receive circumcision of the heart (Col. 2:11) and Spiritual cleaning (Titus 3:5) the moment they accept the Sacrifice of God. Therefore the fulfillment of the Mosaic law is found in Christ and not by works of righteousness. Paul by revelation (Gal 1:12) said:
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 1 Cor. 1:17 (KJV)
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 1 Cor. 1:18 (KJV)
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (Titus 3:5)
Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; (Titus 3:6)
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life (Titus 3:7).
