Water Baptism passed away in this dispensation

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
A different pastor shows you Ephesians 2:8,9: “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.”

After quoting this passage, he says “It is not of works, and baptism would be a work. Baptism should come after you’re saved, but it doesn’t save you!”

Let’s look carefully at the Scriptures and see what is going on. The proclamation of the gospel of the kingdom started with the ministry of John the Baptist after the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

His message was, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Mat 3:2)!

He preached “the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins” (Mark 1:3).

Do I believe that John the Baptist preached baptism for the remission of sins? And, do I believe John preached that a person had to be baptized to be saved? Yes!

But we must always remember the basic methods of Bible study.
1. Find out who is speaking.
2. Find out to whom they are speaking.
3. Find out this: under what dispensation is it being said.

To whom was John the Baptist sent?

It says in John 1:31 that John was sent to Israel: “I did not know Him; but that He should be revealed to Israel, therefore I came baptizing with water.”

John was sent to Israel to show them that Jesus was the Messiah or Christ.

This was at a time when God was dealing only with the Jews.

God’s method of salvation at that time was, repent and be baptized for your sins.

This was the message of the kingdom gospel. Luke 16:16 shows when the kingdom gospel started: “The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.”

In Christ,
Bob Hill
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
Did Christ and the apostles preach the same gospel that John preached?

Yes, for it says that they did in Matthew 10:5-10 and Mark 1:14,15.

Matthew 10:5-10 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. 9 Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, 10 nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food.”

Mark 1:14,15 Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”

Baptism was linked with the message of the kingdom. This was the good news of the circumcision (The Jews), called the circumcision gospel. Paul did not preach this gospel in his later ministry. Gal 2:7-9 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision had been committed to me, as the gospel of the circumcision was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcision also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcision.

In Christ,
Bob Hill
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
How many different kinds of baptism were there when John started his ministry?

Only one.

Was it necessary for salvation?

Yes.

We even find Jesus saying to Nicodemus in John 3:5 that if a man wants to enter into the kingdom of God, he must be born of water and of the Spirit. This requirement of water (baptism) fits right into the message John began and the apostles continued after the resurrection and the day of Pentecost in Acts 2.

Christ commanded the Eleven in Mark 16:15,16, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”

Peter insisted on the same requirement ten days later in Acts 2:38: “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

We see that water baptism, at that time, was necessary for salvation, before Holy Spirit baptism would take place.

So, now, on the day of Pentecost, for the first time, there were two baptisms.

Water baptism was necessary for salvation.

Then, Holy Spirit baptism took place.

From the context of verses 22 and 39 we see that this happened while God was still dealing with Israel.

Peter was only speaking to Israel in verse 22, and he was referring to the promise to Israel in 39.

In Christ,
Bob Hill
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
Next, something very important happens. The Apostle Paul was saved.

We will not go into the differences in Paul’s salvation, although it appears, and I should say, “only appears” that Paul was saved under the same message Peter preached in Acts 2.

Acts 22:16 says, “And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.”

Because God had started a new dispensation with Paul (If you don’t agree with this statement, please read Gal 1:11-2:9 & Eph 3:1-9).

All kinds of different things began to happen.

First, Peter got a vision in Acts 10 which showed him that Israel had been set aside.

They were, temporarily, no longer God’s special people.

This was shown by the vision given to Peter in Acts 10, when the law of clean and unclean animals was set aside (Lev 20:24-26).

After that, Peter was sent to a Gentile and told by the Holy Spirit to doubt nothing (Acts 10:20).

Great things were happening. The most significant event happened when Peter was sent to some Gentiles.

When they believed, the Holy Spirit interrupted Peter’s message before he could tell them to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins.

In fact, the Holy Spirit fell on all the Gentiles while Peter was still preaching.

The Jews who accompanied Peter were amazed. This, indeed, was a dispensational sign from God that something had changed.

What had changed?

God started a new program when He saved Paul.

However, since God would only reveal the new message for this new dispensation to the Apostle Paul, Peter was still preaching the same gospel message he had always preached (Acts 10:34-43).

Sow the situation at this point is:
1. At first there was only one baptism, John’s. It was necessary for salvation.
2. Then things started changing when Paul got saved.
3. Next, the Holy Spirit fell on Gentiles before they were water baptized.

Remember, water baptism was a sign to Jews to show Christ to them.

Sometime during his second missionary journey the Apostle Paul told the body of Christ about the baptisms which they knew of, in this manner: “I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius . . . . For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel”

Please read 1 Co 1:14,17 in its context. In the same epistle, he wrote, “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body; whether Jews or Greeks” (1 Co 12:13). Therefore, water baptism had changed from being the only baptism, and necessary for salvation, to a ritual which had faded away.

In Christ,
Bob Hill
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
Next, another very important incident happened. God finished showing Israel that they had been set aside.

He had done this in a progressive manner which reached its conclusion in Acts 28:28.

It started in Acts 13:46, continued in Acts 18:6, and was concluded in Acts 28:28.

After Israel had been shown that they had been set aside, Paul was inspired by God to write Ephesians.

In Ephesians 4:3-6, Paul wrote about the unity of the Spirit. He was writing about God’s dealings with Christians today. He wrote, “There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism.”

It doesn’t say two baptisms! It says there “is one baptism.”

Which one is it then?

It must be Spirit baptism since the Holy Spirit is still sealing members into the body of Christ.

We can see that the gospel message started out with one baptism, water.

This was necessary for salvation.

It progressed to two: water first, then, Holy Spirit baptism. The water baptism was still necessary for salvation.

Finally, in this Dispensation of Grace, it returned to one, Holy Spirit, which is now necessary for salvation.

So, we must always search the Scriptures to see what is right dispensationally.

In Christ,
Bob Hill
 

CiY127

New member
I don't have the time to read every single post, however one jumped out at me. Several have said that Jesus said we had to be "born again of water and spirit." First, this totally misrepresents the passage; second, water is physical and spirit is, well, spiritural. Read the context:

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Jesus does not say that you had to be born AGAIN of water and of spirit. This is adding to the Word of God what is not there to fit your own presuppositions.

You have to born of water and be born of spirit. That is two births. One can not be born again of spirit if one wasn't born the first time (first birth of water - leaving your mother's womb).

Jesus is talking of two births - being born of the flesh - born of water; and being born of the spirit - born again (literally, born from above).


What is True Baptism?
Water or holy spirit?

For the vast majority of Christians, the terms “baptism” and “water” are virtually inseparable. It is ironic, therefore, that throughout the centuries they have fought among themselves about this issue, sometimes violently. It is sad to say that Church history is rife with such disputes.

The sincere searcher for truth (that's you, right?) deserves to see a thorough biblical exposition of whatever issue you desire to know about.

When it comes to any spiritual matter, the question we must always ask, and then answer, is “What does the Word of God say?” To derive from Scripture the meaning originally intended by the Author, we must come to the Word without preconceived ideas.

Oh, you mean like: “Baptism has something to do with water”? Yes, that's a good example of such a misconception.

The Greek word baptizo simply means “to dip” or “to immerse.” The word itself has absolutely nothing to do with the element into which something or someone is immersed. OK, is water the only thing in which one could be immersed, or soaked? Not according to the Bible, it isn't. And in Scripture, unless the reference to “baptism” or “baptized” specifically says “water,” it does not necessarily mean that water is the element into which one is to be immersed. Acts 1:5 is pivotal in the study of this subject, and we need to get a running start with the previous verse:

Acts 1:4 and 5
(4) On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about [see Luke 24:49 for one of his previous references].
(5) For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit .” [Jesus obviously names two baptisms, and just as obviously points to the baptism with the Holy Spirit as superceding water.]

. . . read entire article at: http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=20

You may find that what we set before you is true, and therefore more spiritually invigorating and liberating than the position you now hold. Our hope is that you are enlightened to reach for the greater possibility, the awesome spiritual reality of holy spirit baptism, that is, the new birth and all that is contained in this glorious gift. You need not settle for a “shadow” when you can have the real thing.

Agape,
CiY
 

Brother John

New member
To Bob Hill, and the other despensationalist, I'm new here, and thank God I found you guys, keep up the good work, I may not post much because I've soo much to learn. I'm in the heart of the Bible belt, all alone in my dispensation world in Bowling Green ky. Its sad, not one fellowship in a 75mile radius.
 

servantofChrist

New member
Water Baptism And Salvation

Water Baptism And Salvation

It never ceases to amaze me reading, or listening to, the innumerable "reasons" people put forth to try to prove that water baptism is not necessary in order for a person to be saved.

But there is so much confusion about Holy Spirit baptism and water baptism that this aspect needs to be addressed first...

People say that commands given in the New Testament for people to "be baptized" are talking about baptism in the Holy Spirit, but this is simply not true. If you do a careful study of the N. T. regarding baptism of the Holy Spirit, you will see that this form of baptism was an OUTPOURING of the Holy Spirit on people at the time, place, and circumstance of GOD'S choosingNOT by people being told to obey a command to receive it. Acts 2:1-4 and Acts 10:44, and other examples, show this plainly.

The only instance in the N. T. in which someone was given a command to obey in order to receive Holy Spirit baptism was when Jesus commanded His apostles to "stay in the city [Jerusalem] until you are clothed with power from on high" (Lk. 24:49). The command part of that is, "stay in the city."

But Holy Spirit baptism was never given to people in general as a command to obey in order to receive it, or in order to be saved. Acts 10: 44, 46, 47, 48, shows this crystal clear:

"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit FELL UPON all those who were listening to the word... Then Peter answered, 'Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he? And he ordered ['commanded,' KJV] them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ."

So Peter said that they had already "received the Holy Spirit," referring to the Holy Spirit baptism that had just taken place in v. 44, when he then asked if anyone could refuse the WATER for these same people to "be baptized" in it. So verses 46-48 show unmistakably clear that it was WATER BAPTISM that Peter was speaking of when he "ordered them to be baptized." And, in contrast, they had just before that received Holy Spirit baptism when ** AT THE TIME OF GOD'S CHOOSING AND BY THE EXERCISE OF HIS WILL ALONE ** the Spirit "fell upon" all those who were listening to Peter preach.

We need to remember the PURPOSE of Holy Spirit baptism of the 1st century as stated in the scriptures... it was given as a special provision to (1) "confirm the word" (Mk. 16:20) and (2) cause people to "believe" the gospel message (Jn. 20: 30, 31).

But many years later, Paul wrote to Timothy that the WRITTEN WORD is now able to make us "complete, furnished completely unto every good work" (2 Tim. 3:17)

The baptism of the Holy Spirit in the 1st century was accompanied by powerful, miraculous signs, such as speaking in tongues [speaking in a foreign language one had never been taught in], or drinking deadly poison, or taking up venomous snakes, with no harm coming to them whatsoever from doing so.

Therefore, when we look at the New Testament examples of what Holy Spirit baptism was, and seeing the EFFECT it had on those who received it... people today who claim to have been baptized by the Holy Spirit need to prove it by a sign that is COMMENSURATE with such a direct reception of GOD'S Spirit on them, as those in the 1st century did.

What I cannot understand is how people who call themselves "Christians," and who confidently affirm, "JESUS IS LORD!!", will say that one has to obey the command to repent of their sins and the command to believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and obey the many, many other commands God has given us in the written New Testament... but when it comes to the command to "be baptized" in water, they say, "Well, that's something you should do, but it's not necessary in order to be saved"!" You believe that Jesus is LORD over all, yet you select one of His orders, one of His commands, and say..."All these other ones are necessary, but this one isn't. This one is optional." GIVE ME A BREAK!! Show me the scripture that says that certain commands or instructions are optional and we don't have to obey them if we don't want to, but we will still be saved in spite of our deliberate disobedience to God's word. Show me the scripture that teaches this.

When Jesus sent His apostles on their "Great Commission," He stated 3 things that they were to preach and practice EVERYWHERE THEY WENT PREACHING HIS GOSPEL MESSAGE OF SALVTION. Those 3 things were: (1) Make disciples (2) Baptizing them (3) Teaching them to OBEY EVERYTHING He had commanded ---- AND HE JUST GOTTEN THROUGH COMMANDING ** BAPTISM ** FOR EVERYONE WHO WISHED TO BECOME A DISCIPLE OF HIS... HOW MUCH MORE PLAINLY COULD IT BE MADE??

And we see this command to baptize people being carried out again and again: in Acts 2, Acts 10, and in Acts 8 where Philip preached Jesus to the Ethiopian eunuch and they came upon some water and the eunuch asked, "See, here is water! What hinders me from being baptized?" And it was after the eunuch was baptized that he "went on his way rejoicing."

If the eunuch had been forgiven and saved before he was baptized, then the scriptures would have shown it that way... but they didn't. This is irrefutable evidence that baptism IS necessary... that it IS required... in order for a person to be saved.
 

Pettrix

BANNED
Banned
:thumb: Great posts Pastor Hill!

I just can't see how people dance and twist Scripture and try to make water baptism applicable today. It is clear and evident that in this dispensation of Grace, water baptism is no longer to be practiced.

:thumb:
 

CiY127

New member
When Jesus sent His apostles on their "Great Commission," He stated 3 things that they were to preach and practice EVERYWHERE THEY WENT PREACHING HIS GOSPEL MESSAGE OF SALVTION. Those 3 things were: (1) Make disciples (2) Baptizing them (3) Teaching them to OBEY EVERYTHING He had commanded ---- AND HE JUST GOTTEN THROUGH COMMANDING ** BAPTISM ** FOR EVERYONE WHO WISHED TO BECOME A DISCIPLE OF HIS... HOW MUCH MORE PLAINLY COULD IT BE MADE??

And we see this command to baptize people being carried out again and again: in Acts 2, Acts 10, and in Acts 8 where Philip preached Jesus to the Ethiopian eunuch and they came upon some water and the eunuch asked, "See, here is water! What hinders me from being baptized?" And it was after the eunuch was baptized that he "went on his way rejoicing."

If the eunuch had been forgiven and saved before he was baptized, then the scriptures would have shown it that way... but they didn't. This is irrefutable evidence that baptism IS necessary... that it IS required... in order for a person to be saved.

In all probability, Jesus did NOT say what is claimed by Matthew 28:19. below is an article if you want to read it. But consider the truth that absolutely none of the disciples EVER baptized or commanded baptism in this formula.

Constantine Wrote Matthew 28:19 Into Your Bible!

What Did Matthew Actually Write, "Baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost," OR "Go ye, and make disciples of all the nations IN MY NAME"? . . .
http://www.israelofgod.org/Constantine.htm

When Phillip baptized the eunich, in fact, any mention of baptism in water is to be expected. These were Jews and Jewish tradition demands water baptism for the remission of sins. But Jesus changed all that!! If we continue to demand water baptism then we deny the completed work of Christ. We are baptized with Christ, died with Christ and we are raised with Christ. Why must we repeat what He already accomplished for us? Wasn't His accomplishment enough? Do we have to add to what He did?

"Baptism" is NOT synonymous with "water"!
Luke 3:16
John answered them all, “I baptize you with water. But [in contrast] one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.”

Acts 18:24-28
(24) Meanwhile a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was a learned man, with a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures.
(25) He had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervor and taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John [the baptism in water unto repentance].
(26) He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately [i.e., that “the way of God” was no longer the “baptism of John”].
(27) When Apollos wanted to go to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples there to welcome him. On arriving, he was a great help to those who by grace had believed.
(28) For he vigorously refuted the Jews in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.

Acts 19:1-6
(1) While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus [where Apollos had just been teaching “only the baptism” of John]. There he found some disciples
(2) and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit [holy spirit].” [4]
(3) So Paul asked them, “Then what baptism did you receive?” “John’s baptism,” they replied.
(4) Paul said, “John’s baptism [into water] was [note the past tense] a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”
(5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. - In water again?!!??!!

Reread this passage!!! Read it again! Let it sink in!

Hebrews 10:1
The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.

All of the ritual and ceremonial washings of the Old Testament were symbolic in nature and were a precursor to the greater reality of the inner cleansing by the Messiah’s work and baptism in holy spirit. In God’s “economy,” they were done away with when the greater baptism that He had in mind finally came to pass on the Day of Pentecost, and the Church began. Interestingly, it was John the Baptist who introduced the phrase “baptize with holy spirit.” The Greek word baptizo means “to immerse” or “to dip.” The liquid connotation of “baptizing in holy spirit” must be figurative, because holy spirit is intangible, and cannot literally be poured out, nor can one literally be immersed in it.

Hebrews 9:9-10
(9) This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and the sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshipper.
(10) They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings [baptismos]—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

Remember that the word “baptism” means “to dip” or “to immerse,” and does not in any way indicate the substance or element into which something is immersed. In reality, the word “baptism” is not a translation, but a transliteration into English of the Greek words baptismos (noun) and baptizo (verb). Look again at verse 10 above!!! It clearly says that the “external regulations” like water baptism applied only until the time of a new order!!! When did that “new order” begin? When Jesus Christ made available an internal cleansing by his virgin birth, sinless life, death, resurrection, ascension, and giving of holy spirit on the Day of Pentecost.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For we [Christians] were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and we were all given the one Spirit [spirit] to drink.

1 Peter 3:20-21
(20) who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
(21) and this water symbolizes baptism [an immersion] that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body [i.e., not water baptism] but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ…

Note carefully that the Word of God very specifically says that the baptism that now saves you is not water baptism, but rather something that touches you on the inside, even your conscience. That was made possible by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and his subsequent ascension and exaltation as Lord, which made him the baptizer with holy spirit.

Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Acts 10:47 and 48a
(47) “Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the holy spirit [no article] just as we have.”
(48a) So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

Most Christians read these verses and assume that Cornelius and his cohorts were then submerged. Even if they were, it was not because God’s Word prescribed it. But there is another way to look at this. First of all, the Bible does not say that they were baptized in water—it says Peter ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, which I believe implies water as per his previously Jewish mindset. But was that command carried out? Not necessarily. Acts 11 begins by stating that the news of what happened at the home of Cornelius swept across Judea, and that the still-zealous-for-the-old-water-baptism church leaders back in Jerusalem quickly confronted Peter about his going into the home of a Gentile “dog.” He told his inquisitors the whole story, just as Acts 10 records it, but when he got to the part about the Gentiles speaking in tongues, he said:

Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
When did Peter remember that Jesus had said, “Hey, water’s out, holy spirit’s in”?

It is very important to realize that Paul could not have said, “Christ did not send me to baptize” if Christ had in fact commanded Christians to go into the world and make disciples and baptize them in water (Matt. 28:19). Christ did command us to go into the world and make disciples and baptize them, but it is Church tradition, not the Bible, that says this baptism means in water. We have already seen that we are now to be baptized, fully immersed, in holy spirit. If Christ did not command water baptism, and he did not send Paul to baptize, how can water baptism be necessary for salvation? It cannot. Furthermore, Paul would not have been “thankful” that he baptized only a few people if it were a prerequisite to being saved (1 Corinthians 1:13-17).

Finally, tell me where the Bible says that the Apostles were baptized.

Agape,
CiY
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
CiY127,

Interesting post. However, where do you get the idea that
Constantine Wrote Matthew 28:19 Into Your Bible!

What Did Matthew Actually Write, "Baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost," OR "Go ye, and make disciples of all the nations IN MY NAME"? . . .

I find no evidence that Constantine Wrote Matthew 28:19 Into our Bible.

What is your evidence for that statement?

I think your post is interesting, and I do not believe that water baptism should be done today in the Dispensation of Grace.

Bob Hill
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
CiY127,

I believe that during the time the Dispensation of the Mystery is in place, we believers are baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ.

We become part of something brand new. Jews and Gentiles who believe in Christ as their savior become heirs together. We are baptized into the body of Christ. We become partakers together by becoming one new man, a new creation.

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.

Eph 2:14-16 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

Col 1:18-22 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. 21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight.

There was nothing written about them in the prophetic Scriptures before Paul’s conversion. God called this new creation, the body of Christ. Again, it is made up of Jews and Gentiles as joint-heirs and joint-partakers.

According to the content of this mystery, God broke down the discriminatory barriers. This truth causes us Mid-Acts-Dispensationalists to believe the body of Christ started with the Apostle Paul before he wrote his first epistle. In my case, I believe the body of Christ started with the conversion of Paul.

Therefore, we must make a strong distinction between Israel and the church which is His body.

Bob Hill
 

Bob Hill

TOL Subscriber
Historically, the doctrine of the pretribulation rapture has been a major distinctive of dispensational theology.

But it seems that some dispensationalists are shifting to a post-tribulation position.

I think that this realignment stems from a lack of appreciation for or a growing ignorance of the doctrine of the body of Christ as a distinct, new work of God for the Dispensation of Grace.

The pretribulation coming of Christ is the obvious conclusion that there is a strict separation between Israel and the body of Christ church.

Since our Lord identified the tribulation with Daniel’s 70th week by citing “the abomination of desolation” from Dan 9:27 and 11:31 within the context of the tribulation (Mat 24:15-21), I must conclude that Daniel’s people, the nation of Israel, not the body of Christ, is the exclusive subject of Daniel’s prophecy. As I’ve shown, the purpose of this period is to purge Israel for her kingdom reign (Dan 9:24; Zec 13:9). The tribulation is specifically designated “a time of tribulation for Jacob” in Jeremiah 30:7.

Bob Hill
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
:thumb: Great posts Pastor Hill!

I just can't see how people dance and twist Scripture and try to make water baptism applicable today. It is clear and evident that in this dispensation of Grace, water baptism is no longer to be practiced.

:thumb:

Apart from a proof text that only says Paul did not personally baptize every convert (but left it to others to do so), there is no exegetical reason to reject Christ's and Paul's teaching on believer's baptism for the Church Age. This does not mean it is essential for salvation anymore than communion is essential for salvation. Both symbolize spiritual reality for the Church/believer, but the reality is in Christ.

Baptism is as applicable as faith is today. Faith is essential for salvation. Baptism is merely a step of discipleship that identifies believers symbolically with Christ and His church.

If you are going to throw out baptism, you should also throw out teaching, preaching, and the Lord's presence until He comes.

John 3:16 (not no mention of works or baptism) and Mt. 28:18-20 are two fundamental, powerful truths introduced by Christ that were applicable to His initial followers and their subsequent disciples, including us. Neither verse was rescinded after the cross or Paul's conversion.
 

cellist

New member
This debate has a false dilemma, namely,

Baptism for the forgiveness of sins is incompatible with salvation by grace alone.

It is assumed by almost everyone that baptism is a "work." The dispensationalist recognizes that the verses relating to baptism in Acts 2 and in the Gospels must mean that baptism results in the forgiveness of sins. But because it is assumed that baptism is a "work" on the part of the one being baptized, this is seen as contradicting Paul, so it is reasoned that these verses must apply to a previous dispensation to avoid a contradiction. The non-dispensationalist, also assuming that baptism is a work, must "interpret" the passages on baptism to make them say that baptism is not for the forgiveness of sins because not to do so would be to introduce an element of "works" into salvation.

Is baptism a work? Well, just look at it lexically. Baptism is always described in the passive tense; "be baptized." It is something done to you. You don't baptize yourself. Also, the pastor baptizing does so in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, not in his own name. Therefore, he is acting in the place of another. The Reformers were dead on when they argued that we should receive the sacraments as if from the hand of Christ Himself not from the hand of man. Christ Himself baptizes us through the agency of another and we are passive in whole affair.

Also, I believe the Reformers were dead on when they argued that the sacraments are the "visible word" of God, namely, the Gospel in visible form. Baptism is simply one way the Gospel comes to us. God has the Gospel preached, read, and displayed before our eyes in the sacraments. Where the Gospel is there is the power of God, working faith, saving, forgiving sins. But if a person refuses to believe what baptism communicates or resists God working faith in him, baptism will do him no good just as the preached word does no good if the person listening spurns it. Baptism isn't our work for God but God's work for us, namely, His communicating the Gospel to us. He is the one active in baptism, not us. It isn't law but Gospel.

Lastly, if baptism is seen as nothing else than the visible word, the problem of the thief on the cross is solved. One can come to saving faith without baptism. If a person becomes a Christian through the preached word baptism would strengthen faith already received through the preached word.
 
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thelaqachisnext

BANNED
Banned
To Bob Hill, and the other despensationalist, I'm new here, and thank God I found you guys, keep up the good work, I may not post much because I've soo much to learn. I'm in the heart of the Bible belt, all alone in my dispensation world in Bowling Green ky. Its sad, not one fellowship in a 75mile radius.
I take it that you are not looking for fellowship in the Light, then, but in MAD doctrine, only.

1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
I have many relatives within a radius of 75 miles of Bowling Green who indeed walk in the Light as He is in the Light and we have fellowship one with another and the blood of Jesus Christ [the One and Only Atonement of Propitiation delivered as the One Faith to the Saints, once, for all, as taught in the Living Oracles] cleanses us from all sin.
 

CiY127

New member
CiY127,

Interesting post. However, where do you get the idea that


I find no evidence that Constantine Wrote Matthew 28:19 Into our Bible.

What is your evidence for that statement?

I think your post is interesting, and I do not believe that water baptism should be done today in the Dispensation of Grace.

Bob Hill

http://www.israelofgod.org/Constantine.htm
This link will take you to a pretty convincing argument that Matthew 28:19 was added to. I'm not claiming that it was Constantine himself, neither does the article really. That is just the title of the article.

I believe that baptism is not needed. However, I am aware of the powerful part that ritual can play in some people's lives and would never deny it to them if they asked.

Agape,
CiY
 

CiY127

New member
Apart from a proof text that only says Paul did not personally baptize every convert (but left it to others to do so), there is no exegetical reason to reject Christ's and Paul's teaching on believer's baptism for the Church Age. This does not mean it is essential for salvation anymore than communion is essential for salvation. Both symbolize spiritual reality for the Church/believer, but the reality is in Christ.

Where, exactly, does it say he left it to others? Must you add to God's Word to support your position? I realize that the point of the passage is that people were arguing based on who had lead them to salvation. But that doesn't preclude a secondary point of Paul not baptizing. He was thankful he didn't baptize. Guess he hadn't heard of the "Great Commision!"

If you are going to throw out baptism, you should also throw out teaching, preaching, and the Lord's presence until He comes.

Teaching and preaching are specifically prescribed:
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Face it, every time you read the word "baptism" or "baptize" you automatically think "WATER," but by doing so you deny the new spiritual reality:

Joh 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to (a)baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which (b)baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Act 1:5 (a)For John truly baptized with water; but (b)ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

(a)ritual shadow - baptism with water; (b)new spiritual reality - baptism with holy spirit

Physical circumcision was a shadow of a new spiritual reality. The Passover lamb was a shadow of a new spiritual reality. The animal sacrifices were a shadow of a new spiritual reality. All of the feasts were a shadow of a new spiritual reality. What is that new spiritual reality? The life, death, and resurrection of Christ. Water baptism was prescribed by the OT Law for the cleansing of sin. It didn't literally wash the sin from someone. It was a ritual. It was a shadow of a new spiritual reality. If you insist on retaining the element of water for baptism, rather than accepting the new spiritual reality (baptism with holy spirit), then why don't you insist on retaining the elements of other shadowed rituals? Why aren't you sacrificing lambs?

Agape,
CiY
 

Brother John

New member
I take it that you are not looking for fellowship in the Light, then, but in MAD doctrine, only.


I have many relatives within a radius of 75 miles of Bowling Green who indeed walk in the Light as He is in the Light and we have fellowship one with another and the blood of Jesus Christ [the One and Only Atonement of Propitiation delivered as the One Faith to the Saints, once, for all, as taught in the Living Oracles] cleanses us from all sin.

Thank you for the offer, but I don't think I want to go back to the fellowship of Lemmings.:) :) :) :)
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
http://www.israelofgod.org/Constantine.htm
This link will take you to a pretty convincing argument that Matthew 28:19 was added to. I'm not claiming that it was Constantine himself, neither does the article really. That is just the title of the article.

I believe that baptism is not needed. However, I am aware of the powerful part that ritual can play in some people's lives and would never deny it to them if they asked.

Agape,
CiY

NT scholarship and textual criticism refutes this nonsense. Constantine was hundreds of years after the MSS evidence for the Book of Matthew. Mt. 28 is not a disputed passage like the later interpolation of I Jn. 5:7.
 
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