toldailytopic: Why do bad things happen to good people?

[Z Man]

. . . aaaaw . . . another theist with cognitive dissonance . . . how sweet.

Anyone who claims there IS a God is absolutely a fool. To make such a ridiculous claim, a person has to know everything about everything - and I mean EVERYTHING. Do you know everything there is to know about this world? This galaxy? This universe? Do you know everything there is to know about time, space, dimensions, other worlds that could possibly exist elsewhere, and the truth about other beings that exist somewhere out in this vast universe? I didn't think so . . . To declare that there IS a God, a person is basically proclaiming to the world that they know EVERYTHING, and that's why they are called fools.

Continue to pretend that you know everything, and you'll continue to be called a fool.

No one knows if God exists or not. People who choose to believe He does have "faith", meaning they believe in Him despite not having concrete evidence.

The bottom line is this: no one knows with 100% certainty whether there is a supernatural being or not. Being aware of the fact that humans don't know everything, some people choose to play it safe and bet that there is a supernatural being out there somewhere in this vast universe/space/time/spiritual realm/etc. Others choose to believe that such a being cannot exist in any realm. If in the end we find out that God doesn't exist, what does those who believed in Him have to lose? They lived their lives in hope and admiration for a being they believed exemplified love, and did their best to live by His example. Not a bad way to live, if you ask me. Now, say in the end we discover that there truly is a God and He does exist, what do those who did not believe He existed in their life have to lose? :think:

Seems like atheists are foolishly taking a big and unnecessary gamble if you ask me...

 

[Z Man]

Besides SilentHunter (and any other atheist for that matter), no one is telling you that you have to believe in this God or that. I am simply saying that to proclaim that there is no room for an idea of God or gods whatsoever, and that there is no way any supernatural being could ever exists seems like a rather bold proclamation to me. Wouldn't it be more correct to say that you're an agnostic? Unless you really believe that you absolutely know EVERYTHING and have discovered that there really is no God whatsoever in any realm - in which case you would not be a fool for being an atheist - could it not be possible that a God or some god or gods may very well exist somewhere in some time?

 

[Z Man]

. . . in my opinion . . . compared to the god of the OT . . . AH and TB are saints.

That's because you probably believe, like most people (including Christians) that God owes mankind some sort of favor. If every man is not loved unconditionally by God - i.e. their crops grow full harvest each year, their bank accounts are full, their tables are covered with food each night, loved ones never succumb to disease or an untimely death - then God must not be good. It's flawed thinking that I find to be rather selfish and appalling. People think too highly of themselves.

 

[lightbringer]

I have thought that it is not so important what happens to a person as how a person responds to what happens.
Anything can happen anywhere at anytime to anyone.
I choose my response based on who I am at the moment. I learn from my responses.
My role models affect my responses. My moral bottom line affects my responses. Consequences affect my responses.

:thumb:

 

[Silent Hunter]

No one knows if God exists or not. People who choose to believe He does have "faith", meaning they believe in Him despite not having concrete evidence.

. . . so . . . is there a deity or not . . . no atheist on TOL is going to let you get away with :idunno: and you claiming to be a christian.

. . . if you say :idunno: then you need to change your affiliation to "agnostic".

. . . if you say . . . yes . . . then my previous argument stands.

The bottom line is this: no one knows with 100% certainty whether there is a supernatural being or not.

. . . no . . . the bottom line is this: why does an all knowing, all powerful deity allow "bad" things to happen at all ?

Being aware of the fact that humans don't know everything, some people choose to play it safe and bet that there is a supernatural being out there somewhere in this vast universe/space/time/spiritual realm/etc. Others choose to believe that such a being cannot exist in any realm.

. . . yeah, yeah . . . Pascal's Wager.

If in the end we find out that God doesn't exist, what does those who believed in Him have to lose?

. . . sure they do . . . they lost all those Sundays going to church to pay homage to the deity that allows bad things to happen to people . . . who has an extremely high probability of not existing btw . . . instead of going to the beach.

They lived their lives in hope and admiration for a being they believed exemplified love, and did their best to live by His example. Not a bad way to live, if you ask me.

. . . not wasting time going to church is pretty sweet too.

Now, say in the end we discover that there truly is a God and He does exist, what do those who did not believe He existed in their life have to lose?

. . . I guess it all depends on if you chose to worship the right deity . . . how many different ones do you think have been worshiped throughout the centuries ?

. . . what if "god" is the muslim deity . . . or the Incan deity . . . or the Egyptian deity . . . or the Greek deity . . . or the Roman deity . . . or the Norse deity . . . or the . . . (I think you get the picture) . . . instead of the christian one ?

Seems like CHRISTIANS are foolishly taking a big and unnecessary gamble by randomly choosing any one "god" if you ask me . . . better to worship them all than taking the chance of being wrong by worshiping just one.

. . . especially one as malevolent as the one in the bible (imo) is.

 

[Rusha]

No one knows if God exists or not. People who choose to believe He does have "faith", meaning they believe in Him despite not having concrete evidence.

Agreed

The bottom line is this: no one knows with 100% certainty whether there is a supernatural being or not. Being aware of the fact that humans don't know everything, some people choose to play it safe and bet that there is a supernatural being out there somewhere in this vast universe/space/time/spiritual realm/etc. Others choose to believe that such a being cannot exist in any realm. If in the end we find out that God doesn't exist, what does those who believed in Him have to lose? They lived their lives in hope and admiration for a being they believed exemplified love, and did their best to live by His example. Not a bad way to live, if you ask me. Now, say in the end we discover that there truly is a God and He does exist, what do those who did not believe He existed in their life have to lose? :think:

Seems like atheists are foolishly taking a big and unnecessary gamble if you ask me...

If one *chooses* to believe in God or other deities to *play it safe*, doesn't that seem rather superficial and self-serving to you?

 

[Z Man]

. . . I guess it all depends on if you chose to worship the right deity . . . how many different ones do you think have been worshiped throughout the centuries ?

. . . what if "god" is the muslim deity . . . or the Incan deity . . . or the Egyptian deity . . . or the Greek deity . . . or the Roman deity . . . or the Norse deity . . . or the . . . (I think you get the picture) . . . instead of the christian one ?

Seems like CHRISTIANS are foolishly taking a big and unnecessary gamble by randomly choosing any one "god" if you ask me . . . better to worship them all than taking the chance of being wrong by worshiping just one.

So why not be an agnostic instead of an atheist? My whole point is that I don't believe any intelligent and modest human being can ever truly proclaim to be an atheist for reasons discussed already. Do I know if God exists or not? Of course not. But because I don't know everything about everything, I'm willing to concede that there may be a God that exists somewhere out there in some place or time or whatever. To say there isn't a God is a much bolder claim that borders on flat out ridiculous, in my opinion. At least agnostics acknowledge their own human limitations of understanding by believing that something could exist out there, considering no one knows much about anything really.

 

[pleasedtomeetme]

The one thing everyone in this world desires is love. The idea of a perfect being completely made of love is attractive to most.

Of course it's attractive. But that doesn't make it so.

 

[Rusha]

So why not be an agnostic instead of an atheist?

Why not be an Agnostic instead of a Christian?

My whole point is that I don't believe any intelligent and modest human being can ever truly proclaim to be an atheist for reasons discussed already.

In that case, the same would hold true for Christians.

Do I know if God exists or not? Of course not. But because I don't know everything about everything, I'm willing to concede that there may be a God that exists somewhere out there in some place or time or whatever. To say there isn't a God is a much bolder claim that borders on flat out ridiculous, in my opinion.

How is it any more ridiculous than saying there IS a God or gods?

At least agnostics acknowledge their own human limitations of understanding by believing that something could exist out there, considering no one knows much about anything really.

So are you stating that you KNOW that God exists or that you *believe* God exists? IF you are stating the latter, IMO, you are an Agnostic.

 

[Silent Hunter]

So why not be an agnostic instead of an atheist?

. . . it is a mistake to assume that all Atheists will deny the very remote possibility of a deity.

My whole point is that I don't believe any intelligent and modest human being can ever truly proclaim to be an atheist for reasons discussed already.

. . . it was very kind of you to read my mind here . . . which makes your whole argument a straw man . . . do you have any other tricks you can do ?

Do I know if God exists or not? Of course not. But because I don't know everything about everything, I'm willing to concede that there may be a God that exists somewhere out there in some place or time or whatever.

. . . then what's with the "christian" moniker ?

To say there isn't a God is a much bolder claim that borders on flat out ridiculous, in my opinion. At least agnostics acknowledge their own human limitations of understanding by believing that something could exist out there, considering no one knows much about anything really.

. . . I'd just like to be able to understand why you've decided on a deity who is so gosh darn evil (imo) that would allow such suffering in the world.

. . . and why not do as I suggest ?

 

[silentthinker]

This same question applys to the angels in heaven,when god created heaven.
And when god's creates his new heaven and earth, this same question applys to this new heaven and earth.
So how can god create anything without it being subjected to evil?

 

[pleasedtomeetme]

So why not be an agnostic instead of an atheist? My whole point is that I don't believe any intelligent and modest human being can ever truly proclaim to be an atheist for reasons discussed already.

I am an atheist. I have no belief in god or gods. However, I'm not avowing that god or gods don't exist. It's simple really: I have neither observed nor felt anything that would lead me to believe god or gods exist. You seem to be really hung up on labeling others with your definitions of atheism and agnosticism.

Do I know if God exists or not? Of course not. But because I don't know everything about everything, I'm willing to concede that there may be a God that exists somewhere out there in some place or time or whatever.

I'm willing to concede as well that there may be a god that exists somewhere out there in some place or time or whatever. I'm also willing to concede that there may be a god that doesn't exist.

To say there isn't a God is a much bolder claim that borders on flat out ridiculous, in my opinion. At least agnostics acknowledge their own human limitations of understanding by believing that something could exist out there, considering no one knows much about anything really.

It has always been my understanding that the definition of an agnostic is someone who believes nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of god or any supernatural phenomena. But does it really matter what label we put on someone?

 

[Z Man]

Of course it's attractive. But that doesn't make it so.

True. But there's nothing wrong with 'dreaming', is there?

Would you ever approach a handicapped kid who had aspirations of being an astronaut and tell them their dreams will never come true? In the same respects, why do atheists find it necessary to attempt to dash the hopes and dreams of those who believe?

 

[Silent Hunter]

True. But there's nothing wrong with 'dreaming', is there?

. . . no . . . but actually expecting it to happen is rather a waste of . . . time.

Would you ever approach a handicapped kid who had aspirations of being an astronaut and tell them their dreams will never come true? In the same respects, why do atheists find it necessary to attempt to dash the hopes and dreams of those who believe?

. . . man . . . I'm sure glad I don't have your life . . . it must be miserable that you must cling so tenaciously to such a fantasy . . . .

 

[Z Man]

Why not be an Agnostic instead of a Christian?

Who says I'm not? I like the moral teachings and value of Christianity, and I label myself as such, but some Christians my very well label me an agnostic. I could care less for labels, really.

In that case, the same would hold true for Christians.

How is it any more ridiculous than saying there IS a God or gods?

Because those who believe in a God have nothing to lose in the end if they're wrong (except that they didn't go to the beach on a Sunday morning, according to Silent Hunter...). Atheists, on the contrary, have everything to lose. Why risk it? So you can have an extra tan from all the beach trips you made on Sunday?

So are you stating that you KNOW that God exists or that you *believe* God exists? IF you are stating the latter, IMO, you are an Agnostic.

I believe He exists. Call me what you will, I do not care.

 

[Son of Jack]

True. But there's nothing wrong with 'dreaming', is there?

Would you ever approach a handicapped kid who had aspirations of being an astronaut and tell them their dreams will never come true? In the same respects, why do atheists find it necessary to attempt to dash the hopes and dreams of those who believe?

My friend, I hope your belief is more than just hoping against hope.

That said, I have always thought the analogy worked the other way round.

 

[Z Man]

. . . no . . . but actually expecting it to happen is rather a waste of . . . time.

Do you get a kick out of going around telling people that their hopes and dreams will never really happen; that its a big waste of time on their part? If you have children, or plan on having children in the future, will you practice what you're preaching by telling them every time they come to you with their dreams that it's not going to happen?

I'd just like to be able to understand why you've decided on a deity who is so gosh darn evil (imo) that would allow such suffering in the world.

Now back to the original point of this thread. You're obviously not very fond of the God in the Bible because from what I can tell, you believe He doesn't treat people correctly. Am I right?

 

[Rusha]

Who says I'm not? I like the moral teachings and value of Christianity, and I label myself as such, but some Christians my very well label me an agnostic. I could care less for labels, really.

Well, giving one's self a label is does help to identify you as far as your beliefs.

Because those who believe in a God have nothing to lose in the end if they're wrong (except that they didn't go to the beach on a Sunday morning, according to Silent Hunter...).

So you base your morality and opinions on what works best for you in the end?

Atheists, on the contrary, have everything to lose. Why risk it? So you can have an extra tan from all the beach trips you made on Sunday?

Because it goes against *my* morals. I am not willing to lie or pretend I believe in or value something I do not agree with or believe is real ... even in the case of personal gain.

I believe He exists. Call me what you will, I do not care.

I have no problems with you believing or disbelieving either way as long as your religion does not interfere in the lives of others. I was mainly just questioning how someone would see themselves as a Christian if they are unsure the God they worship actually exists.

 

[Silent Hunter]

Do you get a kick out of going around telling people that their hopes and dreams will never really happen; that its a big waste of time on their part?

. . . people rarely get what they wish for without effort . . . even if they fail to actualize the full measure.

If you have children, or plan on having children in the future, will you practice what you're preaching by telling them every time they come to you with their dreams that it's not going to happen?

. . . I will tell my children that it very rarely (NEVER) happens that they will have good fortune simply because they wish it would happen . . . but . . . that working hard to achieve a dream has rewards even if they fall short of their goal.

. . . christianity is a dream of the first kind . . . no effort required.

. . . I just hope you didn't choose the wrong religion . . . or . . . the wrong christianity . . . Zeus is gonna be po'd.

Now back to the original point of this thread. You're obviously not very fond of the God in the Bible because from what I can tell, you believe He doesn't treat people correctly. Am I right?

. . . you haven't actually read those parts of the bible . . . obviously.

 

[Z Man]

Well, giving one's self a label is does help to identify you as far as your beliefs.

Considering that Christianity means so many different things to so many different people, then you can realize that it's not that simple. The word "Christian" to a Muslim, a Catholic, and a Protestant all mean different things.

So you base your morality and opinions on what works best for you in the end?

I trust you understand that I'm merely trying to make a point, and that I honestly do not believe in a God simply because I want "what works best for me in the end"...

I have no problems with you believing or disbelieving either way as long as your religion does not interfere in the lives of others. I was mainly just questioning how someone would see themselves as a Christian if they are unsure the God they worship actually exists.

First of all, you do realize that for Christians, spreading the gospel message is simply an act of love. Their religion compels them to "interfere in the lives of others" by telling them about Christ. If you ever meet a true Christian who never shares the message of Christ and his love with you, then it's like meeting a friend who just sits and watches you get run over by a bus in the middle of the street without bothering to warn you or attempt to move you out of the way.

Secondly, everyone is entitled to have doubts. Just because I may have some doesn't mean I'm not a Christian.