toldailytopic: Why do bad things happen to good people?

[Gizmo]

Why do bad things happen?

Why do bad things happen?

I beleve that on earth there is good and evil. As a rule God does not interfere wth man on earth (miracles excpted) and bad things do happen to good people. God's justice is found in the next life so do not expect to see it here.

 

[Nick M]

Because there is no God.

:mock: fools

 

[Theoccupied]

I think the question should much rather be: "Why do 'bad things' turn out to be for the greater good and how do good people reveal this higher purpose?" But in order to see it like this one has to already be disposed to believing that there is a "greatest Good" operating in the midst of our existence. The hope that turns the "bad" event into a "greater good" comes from faith in a benevolent force, and that benevolent force that is always working towards our good, even if it seems to be momentarily meaningless.
For one who does not have this hope in a benevolent "greatest Good", they are lost to the meaning of the event. All events or happenings appear to terminate in themselves, have no further implications, no further sensibility other that material causation and effect.

 

[fuzzwah]

You guys are making this way too complicated; there are only two possible answers:

1) God's methods are inscrutable.

2) There is no God.

 

[Theoccupied]

that answer's just plain boring.

 

[Paidion]

Why do bad things happen to good people?

Why do bad things happen to good people?

Religious folk take Hebrews 9:27 as being literal in meaning, but in doing so, they don’t see that women aren’t even mentioned. Is that to imply that women live forever?

There were many questions in this post, which if answered, would require a book. But this one is really easy to answer.

The Greek word in this verse is "ανθρωπος", a word which means "man" in the sense of "mankind". It would be better translated as "person". The Greek word for "man" in the sense of "male adult" is "ανερ". So the writer didn't exclude women in his statement.

 

[Paidion]

Why do bad things happen to good people?

Why do bad things happen to good people?

The answer to the problem of "evil" in the world has been debated by the world's greatest thinkers for thousands of years. It is unlikely that any of us will come up with a complete explanation.

Rabbi Harold S. Kushner wrote a book entitled When Bad Things Happen to Good People. His answer seems to be that God does not have the power to prevent these evil things from happening.

I believe God to be omnipotent. I am sure He has the power to prevent these evil things, and so why doesn't He? One answer is that He has a deeper purpose for "allowing" these evil things to occur. But if that were the answer, would it not make God the author of evil?

I think part of the answer is that since God created man in His image, this means that man, like God, has free will. God has decided in most cases not to interfere with man's free will. So He usually does nothing to prevent atrocities such as murder, torture, and rape of little children. In my opinion it's ludicrous to presume that God "allows" these atrocities in order to "fulfill a deeper purpose" which He never reveals. God's deepest desire is that man might choose to do good to all people rather than evil.

As for "natural" disasters, it would seem that when mankind fell through rebelling against God, all of nature fell with him. So earthquakes and floods and other natural disasters are part of the fall.

As a young man I recall hypothesizing that God didn't originally create mosquitoes so that they would suck the blood out of warm blooded animals. Rather He created them to suck the juices of plants in order to produce their eggs. About a month or two later, I read in a science book that an experiment was done with mosquitoes. They were isolated in an enclosure where there were no warm blooded animals — only plants. The mosquitoes sucked the juices of plants and produced their offspring just as well from these juices.

 

[Thunder's Muse]

Why do bad things happen to good people?

Why not?

 

[Steve B.]

Christians on both side of the aisle debate the goodness of a God who would permit the kind of death and suffering we have seen in the aftermath of Japan’s 9.0 earthquake, tsunami, and nuclear meltdown.

People can’t understand how a “good” God could allow thousands upon thousands of innocent people to be killed. After the prayers are over, and the aid exhausted, the mothers, fathers, and children, who have lost so much, return to their homes, and keep asking, “Why?”

How do we balance the mercy and love of God, with His justice? I say “we” because God doesn’t do a balancing act, nor does He juggle His emotions, trying to keep some kind of equilibrium between good and evil. God is God, even when we don’t understand Him. God is perfect, and man confused; it is man that walks the tight rope wanting to know “why?”

Luke. 13:1-9 says everything that needs to be said for those who want the truth.

“Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, ‘Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them — do you think they were guiltier than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.’”

Then he told this parable:

“A man had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any. So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, ‘For three years now I've been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven't found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?’ ‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone for one more year, and I'll dig around it and fertilize it. If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.’”

It was generally accepted by the Jews of that time, and many people today, that if something bad happens to a person it is because of sin in their life. In other words if a building falls on you, you must have been very bad. Jesus’ simple answer was, no, that isn’t true. “But, unless you repent you will all perish.” So, Jesus’ answer to the Japan disaster, or any other, is no, God did not cause this disaster, but He did allow it, and “unless you repent you will likewise perish.” The parable that follows, which most people overlook when considering the above passage, sheds some light on the matter. What some will see here is a mean natured God; others will see a God of mercy.

By looking closely we discover that the wrong question is being asked. They, and we, ask “why did God do this or allow this to happen?” By understanding the parable and what Jesus is trying to teach us we understand that the question should be, Why does a perfectly “just” God tolerate anyone to live, why doesn’t He destroy all mankind, not just allow a few to die in accidents? The answer is “MERCY.”

In the parable God is the owner of the tree and Jesus is the gardener, who asks for mercy on the tree, for a period of time, to try and make the tree fruitful. God is a merciful God who has waited and waited and waited, but His justice cannot wait forever; justice must prevail.

It is precisely because of accidents that the preaching of the Gospel is so important. How long will God’s mercy be put off, the Bible says, “Today when you hear his voice, don't harden your hearts as Israel did when they rebelled,” Heb. 3:15? And, this is precisely why the message of Brian McLaren and Rob Bell, and the whole camp of the neo-liberal “Emergents,” and the Catholics, is a death sentence for anyone caught in their web of deceit. They destroy the justice of God and leave the question of “why” unanswered, and hide poor sinners from the mercy of a Father who will wait, till He can wait no longer.

 

[Lev Lafayette]

toldailytopic: Why do bad things happen to good people?

A disappointing set of responses, in my opinion.

This question, and related examples, are a serious challenge to theodicy. Indeed, I have met numerous atheists who claim that this is the matter that has "converted" them.

Epicurus' trilemma (actually probably by Carneades) states the issue succinctly.

1. if God is unable to prevent evil, he is not omnipotent
2. if God is not willing to prevent evil, he is not good
3. if God is willing and able to prevent evil, then why is there evil?

There are a number of possible responses here:

a) A deistic perspective; that there is no interventionist god.
b) Or, a dystheistic perspective; that god is not actually benevolent.
c) Or, as the world is actually evil. As Schopenhauer wrote: "This world could not have been the work of an all-loving being, but that of a devil, who had brought creatures into existence in order to delight in the sight of their sufferings."
d) Or, a evolutionary panentheistic perspective, that *we* have not morally evolved sufficiently to prevent natural suffering.
e) Or, there is indeed no god.

 

[Nick M]

You guys are making this way too complicated; there are only two possible answers:

1) God's methods are inscrutable.

2) There is no God.

You forgot one.

3. God doesn't micromanage.

 

[andyc]

toldailytopic: Why do bad things happen to good people?

The devil.

 

[Yazichestvo]

The devil.

This is not, by my understanding, in accord with Christian teachings. Christianity is not, or at least claims not to be, dualistic. That is, the devil supposedly has no power to make things happen which God does not will.

However, dualism makes a lot more sense. If a God were benevolent and all powerful, would we really expect to see a world like this? A God of infinite power also has infinite responsibility, and with this world going the way it is, I don't see how any theologian would find that appealing. You can easily escape this pitfall by resorting to dualism (as you do) or any other belief that doesn't make one being all-powerful and all-responsible for every undeniably horrible thing that happens.

 

[Todah]

Evil must come, but woe unto him through it does come.
It is not what goes into a man that defiles him, but what comes out of him. For out of the heart comes all manner of evil. For the heart of man is evil and desperately wicked, and who can know it?

There are two kinds of evil which can be referred to as evil. The type that is an actual malevolent evil which seeks to harm specific people, and there is a type of evil that "occurs," in a world where death reigns.

For instance a person born with severe defects, is a type of evil, that befalls innocent, or good people. Then there are all types of natural disasters and accidents, sicknesses, and man caused accidents which result in the same types of evil, loss of life, sight, limb or mobility, etc.

This seems to be the type of evil or bad things that this topic is aimed at.

A recent Torah portion, in Numbers, dealt with the difference between these two types of evil.

If a man with malevolent evil intent kills a man, then the deceased kin, the avenger of blood can put him to death, if he is found guilty. If however it was accidental manslaughter, then he can receive sanctuary, in one of the six cities of refuge, and can only be killed, if he leaves it, without risk to himself,before the death of the current high priest.

So even though there is a difference in intent and evil, between murder and accidental manslaughter, there is still a sense of debt, guilt and repayment owed, even in the case of unintentional death.

Likewise when we see any person struck with evil-calamity, without any malevolent intent on the part of man or nature, we still feel a sense that a person is owed something or was robbed of something.
Death is not in the truest sense, "natural". It is an invader from another realm. Any imperfections in our bodies are also unnatural and invaders, so to speak.

Hence we ask the question, why do bad things happen to good people, and to whom can we exact justice, and pay-back.

Just as you can not enact "justice" on a man in a city of refuge, without forfeiting your own life. We can not extract justice from the wind or the water, a virus or a scorpion. You can only extract justice out of a man, and ultimate justice out of a true God.

That is why when bad things happen to good people we ask..... Why oh God..... why?

The only answer that I have ever found that satisfies, my innate sense of justice, is the death of my High Priest, Yeshua, on the cross at Calvary. His death was the substitute for all the accidental death and sin and all the forgiven sin and debts.

His death set the captives free, and opened the prison doors. His word restored the sight of those born blind, those suffering from disease, lame from accidents, one who died, an unnecessary death{Lazarus}.

He promises to all who trust in Him, a perfect body and an eternal place in a perfect world, where evil has been expunged and where, no accidents could ever occur again.

I do not think that God purposes evil in order to bring people to faith and hope in Him. But I have seen it bring out the best in people who simply accept evil, as transitory, and move on with life.
I have also seen it bring people to faith; and at the return of the High priest, the dead in Christ and the living will receive the complete restoration to glory, of their bodies, mind and souls.

Oh grave where is your victory, oh death where is your sting.
My sense of justice finds its peace, in the promise of His return and our everlasting life.

If eternity can be called a zillion years, and I suffer, and even cause some evil, for 80 of those years here on this earth; That means I have 1 Zillion, 999 yillion 999xiliion, 999 willion...etc. etc...... minus a mere 80, years, to experience life without any evil of any sort. I will take that..

For I have found that the sufferings of this present age are not worthy to, even be "compared," to the glories of the ages to come.

 

[WMDKitty]

I think that bad things are going to happen, regardless of whether a person is "good" or not. It's just the way life is -- the Universe is going to fling metaphorical poop at you now and again, deal with it as best you can.

 

[SteveB]

It hurts so good

It hurts so good

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for August 3rd, 2011 09:54 AM

toldailytopic: Why do bad things happen to good people?

Gosh, hmm... this is a hard one...

So, I guess the question I'd want to ask would be-- the long, or short version?

The short version is the Sin of Adam.

The long version is one that's been ongoing since the fall. I.e., who's got 6000+ years? If so, grab a cup of your favorite brew, and pull up a seat. We'll be a while... a long while!!!:chuckle:

I guess I'd start with Genesis 1, and state that it appears to me that God handed Adam the title deed to the earth, and all its inhabitants.
In the fall, Genesis 3, we see that Adam ate the fruit, and because he died, the title deed passed to Satan. I.e., in not believing God's testimony to him, he relinquished the right, or abrogated the right to rule as the King of earth. Based on what we read in Hebrews, where Jesus picks it up, by virtue of his death and resurrection, I'd say it was abrogated by Adam based on his death, and inability to carry the torch forever.

This of course gives Satan the privileges, rights, responsibilities, etc... pursuant to ownership of the earth.

As Satan hates God with a passion, and knows full well he can't get at God personally, he goes after what God loves-- people. This reminds of the scene in the ST movie- Wrath of Khan- where Khan quotes that line out of Moby Dick, when Ahab is cursing the whale-- at Kirk. I spit at you from heII.

This ownership of earth and its inhabitants now gives Satan what he wants-- access to hurt God in the only way possible.
And while God sets limits to what he can do, he goes after the righteous remnant-- starting with Abel forward.
This then puts an interesting twist-- from my perspective-- on what God does next. This of course is where the story of Job comes to bear, in chapters 1-2. God protects those who place their trust in Him, and it makes Satan irate enough to accuse them of only serving God because of his just protection. E.g., Enoch get's translated, and doesn't see death. As does Elijah.
Again, the devil wants unbridled access, and he finds himself "boxed in" in ways he appears to be unprepared for, and is clearly angry about that.
Going back to the earlier premise-- the devil wants to hurt God, and cannot do so directly, so he goes after what/whom God loves-- people.

So, using Job as a basis, we see that righteous, godly people are attacked on as many sides as possible, and even blamed for it, as though it's their own fault. Sometimes it appears that it genuinely is-- natural consequences to naural laws, and other times it's "just life." Eccles. 9:1-3.

Because the devil has title ownership to earth-- even partially now that Jesus bought it all back-- he appears to now be used as a pawn so that God can accomplish his ultimate plan-- redemption of humanity. It sometimes seems to me that God let's the devil have his day, just so that people can see what a lousy(brutal, vicious, mean, hateful, etc...) landlord he is.

As God has always remained sovereign, and Satan has always remained his-- albeit unwilling-- servant, we await the redemption, and restoration of all things.

Solomon had an interesting thing to say about life, evil, etc....
Ecclesiastes 9:1-3. Specifically verse 2.

I guess I'd say that I'm seeing this "bad things happening to good people" thing as a Job-type issue.
Satan wants access to either drive them away from God, or if they refuse, hurt them in a manner that may indeed drive them to God, but the devil gets to make their lives as miserable as he can on their way home.
I'd further say that for us, post Jesus, we now have SomeOne who goes through the misery with us-- i.e., we get to experience God's comfort- 2 cor. 1:2-8, We get to partake in the "fellowship of His sufferings"- Phil 3:7-12, he will never fail, nor forsake us- Matt28, and numerous other encouraging things.
Going back to my previous paragraph, We get the benefit of learning how to draw near to Christ, and experience all of what, and who he is.

Oh, and I say these things having been a stage 4 metastatic melanoma cancer survivor for the past 12 years, stage 3 from 1992 to 1999 (undiagnosed until 6/97), and clarke's level 4 from 1987 to 1990 (undiagnosed).
I've been a follower of Jesus for 34 years now.
I've watched godly people die all around me, and have long wondered why. I found the answer to that question in Isaiah 57:1-2.
God is removing the godly from the judgments to come.
I've witnessed things happen to people whom I thought were godly people, and while some have struggled to hold on, those who have, were rewarded with a sense of intimacy with Christ that words have not yet adequately expressed.

Remember Hebrews 12:1-3--
Looking to Jesus who is the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy set before him, endured the cross, despising the shame, sat down at the right hand of majesty on high.
We then read in 2 Peter 1:2-4, that we experience the grace and peace of God, and of Jesus in growing manner through our knowledge of Him. And that according as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who has called us to his glory and virtue. and by this knowledge and virtue he has given to us many great and precious promises so that by these, we may be able to escape the corruption that is in this world through sinful desire(lust).

We read further that in looking forward and moving towards our goal, if we develop the characteristics of faith, virtue, knowledge, self-control, endurance, brotherly kindness, and love (in a step by step manner, of building the latter ones on the the former, as in a brick wall, from the ground up), we will never be lacking, nor barren in our knowledge of God, and of Jesus. Moreover, it says that a glorious, and abundant entrance will be given to us upon our day to be with Jesus.

No one likes pain. Having lived with plenty, and knowing innumerable people who live with even worse than mine, we learn-- by slowly, steadily plodding along-- that Jesus really is with us through out it, contrary to what it may feel like.

Grace and Peace be with you all,
In Christ,
SteveB.

 

[Heb.]

The belief in a devil.

The belief in a devil.

I believe it all starts with the idea that a devil exists. People think God is only the good things in life, and the devil is only the bad things, and since there is a Yin & Yang for everything in the universe... a bad thing for every good thing, this can only mean the devil is as big as God... the Creator of the universe. And if we consider the predictions about the End-of-Times, where God will lock up the devil for a while, then destroy him for ever, this leaves one very important unaswered question... what about planets far away in distant galaxies? Unless there is more than one devil running around out there in the universe, this devil must also enhabit other planets far away, too, correct? And if there is intelligent life on other planets, then the devil must have some influence over these beings, too. So after the End-of-Times is over and the devil has been destroyed, this can only mean the devil will no longer exist anywhere throughout the universe, simply because of the events that took place here on earth??? Considering how vast the universe is, does this make any sense? Could this have anything to do with the catholic church threatening Galileo to retract his statement when he found the proof that the earth was not the center of the universe, otherwise they would torchure him? For centuries the catholic church has maintained that we were the only intelligent form of life throughout the universe, but less than 3 years ago the Pope announced to the world the Vatican has changed its position on this idea, and they now feel there are probably other forms of life out there.

The fact of the matter is, Adolf Hitler never harmed anyone... he simply ordered all his soldiers and scientists to do his gastly acts, and the all obeyed. In fact, historians who studied the Holocaust their entire life have confirmed that Hitler gave less than half of the orders that were carried out during the Holocaust... he simply started the ball rolling, then WE (the human race) took over from there. And when many countries finally decided to come together and invade Germany, and put an end to all this madness, we all looked at Hitler and blamed him, and called him the Anti-Christ.

“Its what people know about themselves inside that makes them afraid.”

For those who claim Hitler was just so powerful we couldn't stop him, then I would ask the following question... since we did in fact stop him in the end, what took us so long?

“The belief in a supernatural source of evil is not necessary, men alone are quite capable of every wickedness.” — Joseph Conrad

 

[Anubis]

Because things don't always go as planned.

 

[Paidion]

a) A deistic perspective; that there is no interventionist god.
b) Or, a dystheistic perspective; that god is not actually benevolent.
c) Or, as the world is actually evil. As Schopenhauer wrote: "This world could not have been the work of an all-loving being, but that of a devil, who had brought creatures into existence in order to delight in the sight of their sufferings."
d) Or, a evolutionary panentheistic perspective, that *we* have not morally evolved sufficiently to prevent natural suffering.
e) Or, there is indeed no god.

How about:
f) God's desire to respect libertarian free will overrides His desire to deliver man from suffering. Why does this respect for free will have precedence? Because one of God's major attributes were bestowed upon the humanity which He created, and God wants mankind to learn from his choices and mature toward righteousness.

I said as much in my recent post, but it seems to have been ignored. It cannot be lightly dismissed, Lev, by including it in your general assessment: "A disappointing set of responses..."


Consider a simple example from human experience. Peter has tried to teach his daughter Jan to make independent choices. She was doing well in this respect until she began associating with a group of "friends" that take advantage of others. Peter faces a dilemma:
1. He can take steps to prevent Jan from associating with these "friends" or
2. He can let Jan contine to associate with them, knowing that she will be hurt, but hoping that she will learn an important lesson from her experience.

He thinks Jan will benefit most from #2.

Bill hears about Peter's decision. He discusses the matter with his friends. He says:

1. if Peter is unable to prevent Jan from being hurt by her buddies, he lacks parental authority and ability to control his daughter.
2. if Peter is not willing to prevent Jan from being hurt by her buddies , he does not love her.
3. if Peter is willing and able to prevent Jan from being hurt by her buddies, then why is she still associating with them and subjecting herself to danger?

One can see that Peter's decision not to intervene transcends these objections. I think this is also the case with God usually not directly intervening in human affairs.

 

[Vaquero45]

Because there is no God.

Maybe you could explain how there is bad and good.