toldailytopic: Why do bad things happen to good people?
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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Z Man
New member
Hmmm... Think of Christianity as more like a gift. God already did all the work. Thus, there is no effort required on anybody's part to partake of his free mercy and grace. That's the beauty of it!
You mean the part where God has a bear maul some children because they were picking on a bald dude? Or the part where God orders the Israelites to wipe out entire nations; men, women, and children? Try me.
Why do these stories bother you?
Silent Hunter
Well-known member
. . .
. . .. . . yeah . . . what did all those babies do to warrant such extreme punishment (death) ? . . . hmmmmm ?
. . . why is it that the things done by AH and JD were evil . . . but . . . if done by their chosen deity is ultimately good ? . . . :kookoo:.
. . . they don't bother me . . . but . . . they should bother . . . you.
Z Man
New member
It's not that the men, women, and children that were killed in the OT had necessarily done anything wrong. The fact is it's right for God to end the life of anyone anytime he pleases. God gives life and he takes life. Everybody who dies, dies because God wills that they die. And He does this every day - people die every day. Life is in God's hand. He decides when your last heartbeat will be, and whether it ends through cancer or a bullet wound. He rules and governs everything. And everything he does is just and right and good. God owes us nothing.
If I were to drop dead right now, or a gunman were to come in my room right now and blow my head off, God would have done me no wrong. He does no wrong to anybody when he takes their life, whether at 2 weeks old or at age 92. God is not beholden to us at all. He doesn't owe us anything.
Now add to that the fact we're all sinners and deserve to die and go to hell yesterday, and the reality that we're even breathing today is sheer common grace from God.
(borrowed from John Piper)
So back to the original question of the post, it is, in my opinion, a flawed one. Take out the words "bad" and "good" and it would be more correct - "Why do things happen to people?" The conditions that warrant events in our lifetime, whether we think of them as bad or good things, are not dependent on whether we are bad or good people. Things happen in our life, bad and good (as defined by us), simply because God wills it to happen.
Because God said we shouldn't kill one another. No human has the right to take another human's life.
Silent Hunter
Well-known member
. . . the old . . . my deity can do no wrong defense . . .
.. . . not bad . . . considering you're a closet atheist/agnostic.
. . . except when "ordered" to do so by him/her/it . . . I'm not surprised when your deity doesn't have the courage to take the responsibility him/her/it-self . . .
.
Apparently you have not read the posts of Nick M. and those who are similar. There is nothing loving or compelling about their words.
It's not place to say whether or not you are a Christian. I was just sharing my own view on Christianity. To have any doubt of the existence of God would, IMO, would hinder whether or not someone could actually believe in his son and accept him as the perfect son of a supernatural deity.
Z Man
New member
You're right. The question of why did God kill people in the OT is an easy one if God is assumed as the lone actor. Take the flood for example. He can cause a flood and kill everybody on the planet except 8 people and not do a single one of them any wrong. But he didn't ask anybody else to do that. It gets difficult when he uses other people. What would make this question harder is asking why would God command other people to do the killing. You've got human beings killing humans, and suddenly there emerges a moral question of what is right to do.. . . except when "ordered" to do so by him/her/it . . . I'm not surprised when your deity doesn't have the courage to take the responsibility him/her/it-self . . .Z Man said:
The Bible says, "Thou shalt not murder," yet God says to Joshua, "Go in and clean house, and don't leave anything breathing! Don't leave a donkey, child, woman, old man or old woman breathing. Wipe out Jericho."
My answer to that is that there was a point in history where God was the immediate king of a people (the nation of Israel) different than the way he is the king over the church today, which does not have a political, ethnic dimension to it. With Joshua there was a political, ethnic dimension where God was the immediate king over a group of people, and he uses this people as his instrument to accomplish his judgment in the world at that time. The Bible says that God let the sins of the Amorites accumulate for 400 years so that they would be full (Genesis 15:16), and then sends his own people in as instruments of judgment. So I would vindicate Joshua by saying that in that setting and in that time period, with that kind of relationship between God and his people, it was right for Joshua to do what God told him to do, which was to annihilate the people.
But that's much more complex morally than saying that God does it. Since the sacrificial work of Jesus Christ and the introduction of the church, God no longer works through a Israel - the Jewish people - to bring about his judgement among others on this planet. Instead, God has given the sword to the government (Romans 13:4). Therefore I believe the government has a right to take a rapist and a murderer and to put them in jail. Or to kill them. I think capital punishment is consistent with Genesis 9 and consistent with God's character. Because of the value of man, God demands that "the blood of a man shall be shed for taking the blood of another man" (Genesis 9:6) But that's very different than saying that anybody can go around killing people.
So God has his times and seasons for when he shares his authority to take and give life. The church today is not Israel, and we are not a political or ethnic entity that God has charged with going around and executing his judgement on other people by wiping them out. Instead, the word we have from the Lord today is, "Love your enemy. Pray for those who abuse you. Lay your life down for the world. Don't kill in order to spread the gospel, but die to spread it."
(borrowed from John Piper)
Z Man
New member
Well, you can't assume that these guys represent the entire Christian faith with their actions or words. It's a shame, but throughout all of history, people have always used the "Christian" label as a means to do or say whatever they want and get away with it or make them feel better about doing it.
Noted.
Silent Hunter
Well-known member
In my opinion Joshua, if he existed, was an ancient Hitler acting on his own, not on any deity's command. The Jews needed "living space" so they simply wiped out everyone, a common theme in the ancient world.
Then of course the Jewish deity wasn't all that much help when they went up against chariots of iron even IF he/she/it was "with them" (Judges 1:19). What is really curious is what were they doing in West Virginia :chuckle:.
Silent Hunter
Well-known member
I'm not so sure about ALL history; rather as it has suited them to do so.
Don_Quixote
New member
"History doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme."
-- Mark Twain
What rhymes with lebensraum anyways?
Don_Quixote
New member
The answer is physics, chemistry, evolution and other natural laws.
Imagine a world where it didn't:
You walk down the street on your way to your wedding when some idiot drops a flower pot from the tenth story of a building. Just before it crushes your skull it vaporizes into thin air.
Then, your evil soon-to-be mother-in-law, who doesn't want you to marry her daughter, spikes your drink with cyanide. Just as it touches your lips, it miraculously turns to water.
Nine months later, you realize that both you and your wife have the same recessive gene which will lead to your baby being born with Down syndrome, but at the moment of birth (which doesn't hurt one bit, because your wife is a good devoted Christian) the baby comes out perfectly healthy.
You grow old (or do you? you have been a good person after all) and you're ready to retire when all of a sudden the market and currency crashes. You're retirement savings should have been wiped out, but miraculously all of your stocks gained value.
And the dog your parents bought you when you were ten is still alive and healthy.
Would we even recognize such a world?
## I don't know the answer, but something very like one is given somewhere in Thomas Watson's "All Things For Good".
IMO, there are no bad things - just things that are as bad or good as we allow them to be. If God blesses us through an illness, and opens our hearts to recognise His action, to that extent it is good.
Something like that.
rondonn
New member
This question is only a puzzle in the Western World.
This question is only a puzzle in the Western World.
The East has no problem with this question. If a person from the East read the gospels, they would notice that Jesus spoke of John the Baptist as if he was here before... and then returned.
A person from the East already knows why bad things happen to "good" people. These "good" people have a long history, like everyone else... and it is the things they have done in the lost distance past that have just caught up with them.
As you sow, so shall you reap.
Jesus himself was making reference to this principle when he came up with the summary of the law and the prophets: Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you. Perfect advice, since we are going to sow what we reap.
This basic life principle gets ignored by people who have been told that they are "saved" and are now cleansed of their sins. So it is only those who have been mislead who end up with this puzzle: "why do bad things happen to good people?"
To people from the far east... that question never comes up. They already know why bad things seem to come from out of nowhere.
But of course... this is just my point of view.
This question is only a puzzle in the Western World.
The East has no problem with this question. If a person from the East read the gospels, they would notice that Jesus spoke of John the Baptist as if he was here before... and then returned.
A person from the East already knows why bad things happen to "good" people. These "good" people have a long history, like everyone else... and it is the things they have done in the lost distance past that have just caught up with them.
As you sow, so shall you reap.
Jesus himself was making reference to this principle when he came up with the summary of the law and the prophets: Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you. Perfect advice, since we are going to sow what we reap.
This basic life principle gets ignored by people who have been told that they are "saved" and are now cleansed of their sins. So it is only those who have been mislead who end up with this puzzle: "why do bad things happen to good people?"
To people from the far east... that question never comes up. They already know why bad things seem to come from out of nowhere.
But of course... this is just my point of view.
Because for the Christian, God is purifying His Saints (I Peter 1:6-7). For God never promised them an easy walk on earth, but though His Spirit, God promises a future glory (Romans 8:18-24). Paul calls it a light affliction (I Corinthians 4:17) which worketh a far more eternal glory.
16) Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
17) For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?"
I Peter 4:16-17
If you are a Christian who can claim Jesus as saviour, you should praise God. A few of us are of the sort that we know that God has rejected us because we have been tempted above that we are able, and we have no way of escape (I Corinthians 10:13).
16) Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
17) For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?"
I Peter 4:16-17
If you are a Christian who can claim Jesus as saviour, you should praise God. A few of us are of the sort that we know that God has rejected us because we have been tempted above that we are able, and we have no way of escape (I Corinthians 10:13).
You are not a Christian until you claim Christ as your savior. You then, cannot be rejected by Him. Now, He work's in you.
Turn to the light. It is there for you.
Or "rhubarb" for that matter?
Don_Quixote
New member
That was a most exhilarating bus ride. Thank you for that.