toldailytopic: The reprobate. Are some people born with no hope of salvation?

[Brother Ducky]

It is biblical that we are spiritually dead before being saved. I agree with that. I do not agree that we have to be changed spiritually before we can grab the rope, though. The Bible is filled with exhortations from prophets, God Himself, apostles, etc for others to choose, repent, obey.


I understand and pretty much agree with your perspective. That's why I'm not much into many of the games that are played around these parts. But I can be "tolerant" in the sense that I won't pester someone about a difference of believe...yet still call their view unbiblical if I believe it to be so. You believe that my view is unbiblical. The fact that you didn't use the actual word doesn't change the obvious view you hold about my own belief. The only difference between my post (where I made reference to the "T" being unbiblical) and yours (where you contrasted your reformed view with my view) is that I used the word "unbiblical". You believe that about me (which is okay by me); you just didn't say it.

Thanks, BD. Please take exactly 10 days to think about this post (that was a joke :chuckle.

RA

Don't you tell me how much time I need to screw up a post!!!

My starting point is that we have Scripture to work with [the inerrant Message, that is] and not a Systematic theology. And within Scripture there are collections of passages [or sometime just a verse, or part of a verse] that we as imperfect human beings take to have some systematized meaning. Others will take another collection of verses and they will yield a different conclusion.

I consider myself to be a "deliberate Presbyterian" in that I was forced to look at Reformed and non-Reformed belief systems and concluded that the Reformed view is the most biblical. I understand that there are problem verses. I also understand that other Brothers and Sisters feel that they have the most biblical system. [Excluding for the moment those who hold that they have a total lock on biblical truth.] I can still fellowship in person and online with them and not feel that I have to convert them to my point of view. Although I might point out that what they hold has biblical problems.

I recognize that I might be wrong on some points. Maybe lots of them. But I try to keep my beliefs and practices as consistent to the biblical standards as I can. And try to help brothers and sisters do the same.

Peace,
Rick

 

[Nang]

Read what you wrote, carefully. You defined reprobation as "many souls are consigned by God Almighty God to hell for sin." Consignment and election are the same thing,

unless you want to say election refers to only the saved and consignment to the rest in which case it's just two terms for essentially the same thing, that God chose beforehand the eternal state of all souls. Yet you want to deny God is responsible for the eternal souls of men.

Of course God controls the eternal souls of all men.

I stated:

God accomplishes sovereignly His eternal decree of reprobation IN THE WAY OF UNBELIEF.

You simply have not grasped this truth, yet.

 

[Nang]

nang:



You just contradicted yourself nang in the very same paragraph . You had just admitted:

I disagree with you that God caused Adam to sin. Scripture disagrees with you that God caused Adam to sin. Romans 5:12

God is the first cause of all creation, but God gifted creatures with secondary causal agency . . . meaning man willfully could also cause and effect within his provided surroundings . . . commanded by God to do so in submission to the will and word of the Creator.

Adam abused his causal agency, and disobeyed the will and word of God and received the effect of his own actions. Death.

Since that time, all men have inherited Adam's corrupted sin nature, and continue to exercise their wills in demonstration of being in an accursed state and at enmity with God and His will and word. Thus, all men are consigned to death through the imputation of sin.

However, before the foundation of the world God decreed He would save a portion of humanity to keep promise with the Son, and souls were elected to redemption through the grace and powers of the Mediation of the Son.

The rest of mankind were left consigned to death and hell due to their corruption, which they and Adam are solely held responsible. These non-elect are reprobates.

You and I have no idea who are elect or who will prove to be reprobate, so we are commissioned by the Son to proclaim the Gospel message of God's redeeming grace to all men. God will save who He wills to show mercy through the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

God alone determines the fate of all men.

Nang

 

[Krsto]

I disagree with you that God caused Adam to sin. Scripture disagrees with you that God caused Adam to sin. Romans 5:12

God is the first cause of all creation, but God gifted creatures with secondary causal agency . . . meaning man willfully could also cause and effect within his provided surroundings . . . commanded by God to do so in submission to the will and word of the Creator.

Adam abused his causal agency, and disobeyed the will and word of God and received the effect of his own actions. Death.

Since that time, all men have inherited Adam's corrupted sin nature, and continue to exercise their wills in demonstration of being in an accursed state and at enmity with God and His will and word. Thus, all men are consigned to death through the imputation of sin.

However, before the foundation of the world God decreed He would save a portion of humanity to keep promise with the Son, and souls were elected to redemption through the grace and powers of the Mediation of the Son.

The rest of mankind were left consigned to death and hell due to their corruption, which they and Adam are solely held responsible. These non-elect are reprobates.

You and I have no idea who are elect or who will prove to be reprobate, so we are commissioned by the Son to proclaim the Gospel message of God's redeeming grace to all men. God will save who He wills to show mercy through the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

God alone determines the fate of all men.

Nang

The red above, particularly the word "solely", is what is in complete opposition to everything else you say, as if God is not responsible. You are trying to remove God from responsibility, are you not?

 

[Nang]

The red above, particularly the word "solely", is what is in complete opposition to everything else you say, as if God is not responsible. You are trying to remove God from responsibility, are you not?

If God had not put Adam under the Law with commands, and Adam had not broken those commands, then God would be the cause of all death.

But Adam was created very good, and was given causal agency to effect his surroundings, and was responsible to live according to the Law and holy order of His Maker. Adam exercised his God-given gift wrongly and in direct disobedience to God's Law. Thus the bible (not Nang) says Adam is the one held responsible for all sin and death. Romans 5:12

It amazes me that "free" willers persistently deny that the human will caused death in this world and try to pin the cause upon God. And yet they claim that supposedly exercising this same "free" will is the cause and contingency of salvation, not God.

Such twisted views are diametrically in opposition to the revelations of Holy Scripture . . . but then the human mind is accursed with enmity against the will and word of God, so why am I amazed?

Nang

 

[Krsto]

If God had not put Adam under the Law with commands, and Adam had not broken those commands, then God would be the cause of all death.

But Adam was created very good, and was given causal agency to effect his surroundings, and was responsible to live according to the Law and holy order of His Maker. Adam exercised his God-given gift wrongly and in direct disobedience to God's Law. Thus the bible (not Nang) says Adam is the one held responsible for all sin and death. Romans 5:12

It amazes me that "free" willers persistently deny that the human will caused death in this world and try to pin the cause upon God. And yet they claim that supposedly exercising this same "free" will is the cause and contingency of salvation, not God.

Such twisted views are diametrically in opposition to the revelations of Holy Scripture . . . but then the human mind is accursed with enmity against the will and word of God, so why am I amazed?

Nang

Well there ya go, you obviously don't have a human mind so you don't have to worry about being accursed now do you?

No Nang, it is not the bible but you who says "Adam is the one held responsible for all sin and death." Read Rom. 5:12 more carefully. What exactly does it say is passed on from Adam? Sin? A sin nature? No, DEATH. Why death? Because God has decreed that death is what one earns for his sin. "The wages of sin is death." Rom. 6:23. What does 5:12 say was passed on to all men? Death. Why? "Because all have sinned." Isn't that what it says? Yes, man, each man, (not Adam), is responsible for his own sin, but only God can determine the outcome of that sin. He is the one in charge here, no? He is the one who sets the wages in this economy. You do believe in the sovereignty of God, don't you? He is the one who determined that death would be the penalty for sin. He is responsible for that. To remove responsibility from God for that is to remove him from being a sovereign God as if he has no control over this penalty.

 

[Nang]

Well there ya go, you obviously don't have a human mind so you don't have to worry about being accursed now do you?

No Nang, it is not the bible but you who says "Adam is the one held responsible for all sin and death." Read Rom. 5:12 more carefully. What exactly does it say is passed on from Adam? Sin? A sin nature? No, DEATH. Why death? Because God has decreed that death is what one earns for his sin. "The wages of sin is death." Rom. 6:23. What does 5:12 say was passed on to all men? Death. Why? "Because all have sinned." Isn't that what it says?

Yes, all men are responsible before God to answer for their sins.

Yes, man, each man, (not Adam), is responsible for his own sin, but only God can determine the outcome of that sin. He is the one in charge here, no? He is the one who sets the wages in this economy. You do believe in the sovereignty of God, don't you?

Yes I do. God is the author of the Law and God is the Judge of His Law.

He is the one who determined that death would be the penalty for sin. He is responsible for that.

That would be like saying that the Judge is answerable to the actions of each criminal that shows up in his court.

God the Judge did not commit or cause the crime just because He created the criminal, and warned the criminal of the consequences of breaking the Law.

To remove responsibility from God for that is to remove him from being a sovereign God as if he has no control over this penalty.

Krsto, according to the justice of God, all men deserve the death penalty for their sins. You rightly quote Romans 6:23 which declares the wages of sin is death. By all rights, all of mankind should pay this guilt sentence. By all rights, God could have left all mankind in the reprobate condition, for that is all any sinner deserves.

But God is His great mercy and grace, determined the Son would pay the death penalty in stead for a people chosen and given to Him to redeem. This is how sinners are saved to enjoy the fate of everlasting life in Christ Jesus.

Your message is that God is responsible for death, not man.

But man is responsible to redeem himself, not God.

You have things totally upside-down.

Man is responsible for his sins and death, not God.

But God alone can redeem man, according to His grace alone.

Reprobation applies to those who are punished according to Godly justice for their sins, outside of the grace and redemptive powers of God.

You wrestle with this because you think since God caused the death of all men universal, God owes all men universal the opportunity to choose to believe the gospel unto salvation.

Not so.

Sovereign God (the Judge) owes sinners (guilty criminals) nothing.

If many sinners are justified by the blood shed (death) of the Son and then are gifted with faith to believe in the righteousness of Jesus Christ, and then receive everlasting life instead of death, that is strictly CAUSED by the forgiving grace of the Father and the sacrifice of the Son.

 

[chickenman]

Don't you tell me how much time I need to screw up a post!!!

My starting point is that we have Scripture to work with [the inerrant Message, that is] and not a Systematic theology. And within Scripture there are collections of passages [or sometime just a verse, or part of a verse] that we as imperfect human beings take to have some systematized meaning. Others will take another collection of verses and they will yield a different conclusion.

I consider myself to be a "deliberate Presbyterian" in that I was forced to look at Reformed and non-Reformed belief systems and concluded that the Reformed view is the most biblical. I understand that there are problem verses. I also understand that other Brothers and Sisters feel that they have the most biblical system. [Excluding for the moment those who hold that they have a total lock on biblical truth.] I can still fellowship in person and online with them and not feel that I have to convert them to my point of view. Although I might point out that what they hold has biblical problems.

I recognize that I might be wrong on some points. Maybe lots of them. But I try to keep my beliefs and practices as consistent to the biblical standards as I can. And try to help brothers and sisters do the same.

Peace,
Rick

I'm with you, Rick (except the part about concluding a Reformed view ). :up:

Thanks for the exchange.

Randy

 

[Desert Reign]

I thought it was interesting to read the following article (extract) which probably better than me summarises what I have been saying recently.

In my experience, the common Reformed conception of assurance involves knowing that one is decretally elect. If one does not know that one is decretally elect, then one does not know that Christ died for oneself, and therefore one does not know that one is saved and going to heaven. This conception of assurance produces difficulties for Reformed theology, because Reformed ecclesiology has no way to determine definitively that any particular person is decretally elect, at least not until after the person has died (at which point assurance is no longer needed). So even though this is a very lofty conception of assurance, and if attained would produce incredible joy and comfort, it seems to me that ordinarily no one can justifiably attain it in this life. So one either pretends that one has knowledge of one's decretal election status, or one just claims it by a fideistic leap and/or by force of reiteration to oneself.

If one asks such a Reformed person how he knows he is saved, he will typically say that Scripture tells him so. And if you ask him to show you where, he will point to verses that teach that whoever believes shall be saved. Then he says that since he believes, he is therefore assured that he is decretally elect. Then you point out that apostates-to-be read the same passages and conclude the same thing. These people also believe, but then fall away and die in that state of unbelief. He replies that those people never *truly* believed. So you ask him how he knows that he "truly believes". You ask him how he knows that the kind of faith he now has is the kind that no apostate-to-be ever had. He generally has no answer for this question. (Notice that now he is no longer deriving assurance from Scripture alone, but from some sort of introspection.) Sometimes, at this point, he appeals to the witness of the Holy Spirit. When you point out that Mormons also appeal to the witness of the Holy Spirit, he has no substantive reply.

Link.

 

[Nang]

I thought it was interesting to read the following article (extract) which probably better than me summarises what I have been saying recently.

Link.

" . . . This is the record, that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.” The belief of the Gospel saves; the belief of the promise annexed to that Gospel makes us sure of this salvation personally. It is not the belief of our belief that assures us of pardon, and gives us a good conscience towards God; but our belief of what God has promised to every one who believes his Gospel – that is eternal life. “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved.”

What is God to me? That is the first question that rises up to an inquiring soul. And the second is like unto it – What am I to God? On these two questions hangs all religion, as well as all joy and life to the immortal spirit. If God is for me, and I am for God, all is well. If God is not for me, and if I am not for God, all is ill (Romans 8:31). If he takes my side, and if I take his, there is nothing to fear, either in this world or in that which is to come. If he is not on my side, and if I am not on his, then what can I do but fear? Terror in such a case must be as natural and inevitable as in a burning house or a sinking vessel. Or, if I do not know whether God is for me or not, I can have no rest. In a matter such as this, my soul seeks certainty, not uncertainty. I must know that God is for me, else I must remain in the sadness of unrest and terror. Insofar as my actual safety is concerned, everything depends on God being for me; and insofar as my present peace is concerned, everything depends on my knowing that God is for me. Nothing can calm the tempest of my soul, save the knowledge that I am his, and that he is mine.

Thus the questions about assurance resolve themselves into that of the knowledge of our relationship to God. To an Arminian, who denies election and the perseverance ot the saints, the knowledge of our present reconciliation to God might bring with it no assurance of final salvation; for, according to him, we may be in reconciliation today, and out of it tomorrow; but to a Calvinist there can be no such separation. He who is once reconciled is reconciled forever; and the knowledge of filial relationship just now is the assurance of eternal salvation. Indeed, apart from God’s electing love, there can be no such thing as assurance. It becomes an impossibility. Assurance does not save us; and they have erred who have spoken of assurance as indispensable to salvation. For we are not saved by believing in our own salvation, nor by believing anything whatsoever about ourselves. We are saved by what we believe about the Son of God and his righteousness. The Gospel believed saves; not the believing in our own faith."
Horatius Bonar

(Underlined emphasis mine.)

Nang

 

[beloved57]

nang:

God is the first cause of all creation

,

In case you did not realize it, Adam is part of Creation. And So God is the First Cause of Adam's actions.

Now, could Adam had sinned and brought death into the world if God had not created him ? Also did God know that Adam was going to sin and bring death into the world before He created Him ?

 

[Nang]

nang:

,

In case you did not realize it, Adam is part of Creation. And So God is the First Cause of Adam's actions.

Now, could Adam had sinned and brought death into the world if God had not created him ?

No.

Also did God know that Adam was going to sin and bring death into the world before He created Him ?

Yes.

But neither of these facts makes God the author of sin. God is not to be blamed for sin. Adam alone bears the responsibility for sin. Romans 5:12

If God had not created the world and if Adam had not sinned, the God/Man Jesus Christ would have not manifested and shown the divine powers and glory of Godly grace and redemption.

I rest and find assurance in the wisdom of God and His good purposes and plans. (Ephesians 1:9-12)

Nang

 

[beloved57]

nang

Yes.

But neither of these facts makes God the author of sin.

It makes God the First Cause of the one who brought sin into the world. It also shows that it was God's will for Adam to do such. God wanted Adam to sin and bring death into the world. He made Adam for that purpose !

God is not to be blamed for sin.

Its not a blame matter, all things were ordered by the Eternal Counsel. Eph 1:11

11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Adam's sinning and bringing death into the world was predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will.

Adam alone bears the responsibility for sin. Romans 5:12

Yes, and God caused it !

If God had not created the world and if Adam had not sinned, the God/Man Jesus Christ would have not manifested and shown the divine powers and glory of Godly grace and redemption.

Believe it or not that was the whole Ideal behind creating Adam in the first place, for the redeeming purpose of Christ blood. Col 1:14-16

14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

I rest and find assurance in the wisdom of God and His good purposes and plans. (Ephesians 1:9-12)

I rest in God's Eternal Plan, realizing that sin and Death entered into this world by Adam because of God's Eternal Purpose in Christ.

Adam did just what God determined Him to do when he sinned , do you believe that ? Did Adam have any other choice ?

 

[graceandpeace]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for July 12th, 2011 08:59 AM

toldailytopic: The reprobate. Are some people born with no hope of salvation?

no




Take the topic above and run with it! Slice it, dice it, give us your general thoughts about it. Everyday there will be a new TOL Topic of the Day.
If you want to make suggestions for the Topic of the Day send a Tweet to @toldailytopic or @theologyonline or send it to us via Facebook.

 

[graceandpeace]

nang:

,

In case you did not realize it, Adam is part of Creation. And So God is the First Cause of Adam's actions.

Now, could Adam had sinned and brought death into the world if God had not created him ? Also did God know that Adam was going to sin and bring death into the world before He created Him ?

It does not matter, God STILL ALLOWED him to choose.

God did not create him without that ability.

Yes, God foreknew what he would do; but he still had the ability to choose/freewill.

Everyone does.

 

[graceandpeace]

No.





Yes.

But neither of these facts makes God the author of sin. God is not to be blamed for sin. Adam alone bears the responsibility for sin. Romans 5:12

If God had not created the world and if Adam had not sinned, the God/Man Jesus Christ would have not manifested and shown the divine powers and glory of Godly grace and redemption.

I rest and find assurance in the wisdom of God and His good purposes and plans. (Ephesians 1:9-12)

Nang

Absolutely, which is why from the beginning, God created man with a freewill...He could not be the maker of sin. That is folly of men....God cannot even be tempted with it.

Those whom do not believe in freewill, are making God the creator of sin...LOL

 

[graceandpeace]

nang



It makes God the First Cause of the one who brought sin into the world. It also shows that it was God's will for Adam to do such. God wanted Adam to sin and bring death into the world. He made Adam for that purpose !



Its not a blame matter, all things were ordered by the Eternal Counsel. Eph 1:11

11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Adam's sinning and bringing death into the world was predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will.



Yes, and God caused it !



Believe it or not that was the whole Ideal behind creating Adam in the first place, for the redeeming purpose of Christ blood. Col 1:14-16

14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:



I rest in God's Eternal Plan, realizing that sin and Death entered into this world by Adam because of God's Eternal Purpose in Christ.

Adam did just what God determined Him to do when he sinned , do you believe that ? Did Adam have any other choice ?

This is how men twist scripture....."all things were created by Him and for Him".

Yes, now remember that God created Adam with the ability to CHOOSE..and, God used that ability...God did NOT CAUSE Adam to sin..LOL

 

[Nang]

God created Adam with the ability to CHOOSE..and, God used that ability...God did NOT CAUSE Adam to sin..LOL

What should be emphasized here is not "choice" or supposed "free" will teaching, but human responsibility before one's Maker.

God gave Adam the duty and moral agency (ability to secondarily cause and effect) in order to live according to His holiness.

God revealed this human responsibility through commands. God's creational laws reveal the holiness of the Godhead, and man was made responsible to live accordingly.

Adam was never "free" to live otherwise, without consequence of judgment and death.

And after Adam failed to exercise his God-given moral agency and responsibility according to the commands of God, Adam lost all ability to submit to divine holiness and righteousness altogether.

Thus, we see fallen mankind still held responsible by God to live moral lives according to God's holiness, but bereft of any ability to do so.

Yes, man is a willful creature, but his will is corrupted and totally depraved and no man is able or willing to live up to God's moral standards. That is what makes all of us "covenant-breakers." Hosea 6:7

(Luther's "The Bondage Of The Will" is excellent reading to get a grasp on this subject.)

Jesus Christ is the only Man who has ever exercised the human will in perfect obedience; thereby fulfilling all human duty and responsibility fully before God. It is trust and faith in HIS CHOICES and works of righteousness under the Law, that makes us acceptable before God.

I consider the teaching of "free" will in men, to be a misnomer and a terrible theological distraction . . . for even though we all possess wills with which we make decisions and choices, our wills are not free to choose righteousness. We can only respond with faith in Jesus Christ by the grace of God gifted to us; submitting to His sovereign will and word.

For without faith it is impossible to please Him. Hebrews 11:6



Nang

 

[beloved57]

gp:

It does not matter, God STILL ALLOWED him to choose.

It was more than allowed. God determined that it would happen. He knew Adam would do it, and gave Adam being to do it. It was premeditated on God's part.

 

[beloved57]

gp:

God did NOT CAUSE Adam to sin..LOL

Yes He did. God made him so that he would sin and bring death into the world. How could have Adam had sinned if God did not predetermine to give Adam being ?