toldailytopic: The reprobate. Are some people born with no hope of salvation?

[beloved57]

tot:

To say God caused man to sin

He did He create Adam to sin and commence the working out of Christ's Eternal Redemptive Purpose.

 

[Totton Linnet]

tot:



He did He create Adam to sin and commence the working out of Christ's Eternal Redemptive Purpose.

You have said God caused Adam to sin...prove it with scripture

You have said He did so to commense the working out of Christ's eternal redemptive purpose....prove it with scripture

You get by on quoting 85 per cent scripture and 15 per cent pure wickedness. The fact that you do not understand how wicked a thing it is to say that God caused man to sin shows a great depth of darkness in you [you thought it was light]

 

[beloved57]

tot:

You have said God caused Adam to sin...

Yes, we just went over that. God created adam to bring sin into the world. The world was made for the outworking of God's Eternal Redemptive purpose in Christ.

...prove it with scripture

I already have and you cannot understand scripture or God's Eternal Purpose in Christ.

 

[Totton Linnet]

tot:



Yes, we just went over that. God created adam to bring sin into the world. The world was made for the outworking of God's Eternal Redemptive purpose in Christ.



I already have and you cannot understand scripture or God's Eternal Purpose in Christ.

There are no scriptures just the mangled torturing of only partly thought through doctrines...no scripture, no scripture.

This is the same mistake Calvin made, there was no scripture so he supposed. So do you.

 

[Skavau]

tot:



Yes, we just went over that. God created adam to bring sin into the world. The world was made for the outworking of God's Eternal Redemptive purpose in Christ.



I already have and you cannot understand scripture or God's Eternal Purpose in Christ.

So you view humanity as tools entirely for God's "eternal purpose". We are condemned inherently for our own imperfection that he deliberately bestowed upon us.

How can you remain morally serious and idolise this?

 

[beloved57]

tot:

There are no scriptures just the mangled torturing of only partly thought through doctrines...no scripture, no scripture.

I have shared scripture truth with you, but you gave me evidence of not being able to receive the things of God, they are foolishness to you.

 

[beloved57]

ska:

So you view humanity as tools entirely for God's "eternal purpose".

I guess thats a way of saying it, But scripture more precisely puts it like this Rom 9:19-23

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

God has made some men, unconditionally, meaning not taking anything in account about them, but for reasons solely known to Him, He made them men that are vessels of wrath, to be fitted for destruction, that is, to be punished everlastingly for their sins as Here 2 Thess 1:9

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

And God hath made some men, unconditionally, meaning not for any reasons in themselves, but for reasons solely known in Himself, vessels of mercy, to inherit the Eternal Kingdom prepared for them from the foundation Matt 25:34

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

And there is nothing you can do about it and it does not matter if you don't believe it.

 

[Skavau]

ska:

I guess thats a way of saying it, But scripture more precisely puts it like this Rom 9:19-23

Then you aren't moral. Not in any meaningful sense.

God has made some men, unconditionally, meaning not taking anything in account about them, but for reasons solely known to Him, He made them men that are vessels of wrath, to be fitted for destruction, that is, to be punished everlastingly for their sins as Here 2 Thess 1:9

And that's acceptable to you? That God designs people to be fitted for destruction and punished permanently for their creation?

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

And God hath made some men, unconditionally, meaning not for any reasons in themselves, but for reasons solely known in Himself, vessels of mercy, to inherit the Eternal Kingdom prepared for them from the foundation Matt 25:34

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

And there is nothing you can do about it and it does not matter if you don't believe it.

So as I said above, you are in no meaningful way moral. You are in approval of people being created just to be tortured. You are in approval of that torture being permanent. This is literally one of the most evil things that someone could support regardless of whether or not is true.

 

[beloved57]

ska:

Then you aren't moral.

Off topic, the thread is not about me or you..

 

[Totton Linnet]

tot:



I have shared scripture truth with you, but you gave me evidence of not being able to receive the things of God, they are foolishness to you.

*
No scripture only your tortured supposition upon, I pray God thr Holy Spirit would bring home to you the wickeness of saying that God is responsible for sin.

He TAKES responsibility for those who cry to Him for mercy, He MANAGES sin and took it into account when He created. But never, never did He cause it.

You are saying not just that God worked through Satan but that He was IN Satan when he lied and decieved.

 

[Krsto]

Your message is that God is responsible for death, not man.

That is what the bible teaches, since it is God, not man, who determined the wages of sin would be death. You did admit to the sovereignty of God and now you do not accept the logical conclusion to that sovereignty. He is also responsible for making man such that without direct and miraculous intervention such as with the man Christ Jesus, it is inevitable that all men would sin. You even believe all men are born that way, sinners in need of a savior (I don't), yet lift the responsibility for that from God who had the power to make things different, and place the responsibility and culpability on the baby who could not possibly do otherwise. That is a sick, twisted rationalization on your part Nang.

But man is responsible to redeem himself, not God.

Yes, that is my message, but of course ultimately redemption is solely with God alone because he is the one who made the way. Without him causing that to happen, it wouldn't happen, no matter how much effort man puts into it. If you are in a burning building and the fireman breaks open a door for you to get out and you make the choice to walk out is anyone going to call you your own Savior or is everyone going to call the fireman the Savior? He alone is Savior, but you still had to act on his invitation.

You have things totally upside-down.

See above.

Man is responsible for his sins and death, not God.

But God alone can redeem man, according to His grace alone.

See above, re: who is responsible and who gets the credit in the burning building analogy.

Reprobation applies to those who are punished according to Godly justice for their sins, outside of the grace and redemptive powers of God.

There is no way in which justice is Godly if those who have no say in the matter or ability to choose to do differently are consigned to eternal torment for their sins. That would be 180 degrees opposite the justice of God so your theology definately leaves something to be desired, to put it mildly. Actually, to be perfectly honest, your theology makes God out to be a sadistic monster which is one reason many atheists as well as God-fearing, bible-believing Christians don't buy it.

You wrestle with this because you think since God caused the death of all men universal, God owes all men universal the opportunity to choose to believe the gospel unto salvation.

Not so.

Sovereign God (the Judge) owes sinners (guilty criminals) nothing.

I never mentioned anything about owing sinners anything since my arguments are what is revealed in the bible, not what I think should happen, but since you brought it up, yes, if men can do nothing other than sin the day they are born (not that I believe that is the case since I don't believe your twisted version of original sin), then God does owe them the chance to "get right with God." That would be Godly Justice, according to any biblical definition of justice.

If many sinners are justified by the blood shed (death) of the Son and then are gifted with faith to believe in the righteousness of Jesus Christ, and then receive everlasting life instead of death, that is strictly CAUSED by the forgiving grace of the Father and the sacrifice of the Son.

OK, as long as cooperation on the part of the sinner is acknowledged. In the burning building analogy, the person's rescue was caused by the fireman, even though the person had to do something about it too.

 

[Krsto]

ska:



Off topic, the thread is not about me or you..

You are just trying to escape the inescapable conclusions of your own theology because you don't have the moral backbone to even consider the ramifications of your belief.

May God get through to your thick head and set you free from your man-made religion.

 

[Krsto]

tot:



Yes, we just went over that. God created adam to bring sin into the world. The world was made for the outworking of God's Eternal Redemptive purpose in Christ.



I already have and you cannot understand scripture or God's Eternal Purpose in Christ.

You don't have a clue what God's eternal purpose is. God's eternal purpose is to create "little Christs," people who are made into the image of Christ who was in the image of God (fully), and that is what the predestined are predestined to while those who of their own free will chose not to accept the invitation from God simply die and cease to exist in the end.

 

[Krsto]

*
To say that God caused sin and death to His creation is just about as blasphemeous a statement you can make. It would make God evil and the author of evil. To say it is unbelieveably evil

God FORBADE sin and warned earnestly against it, Adam under deception rebelled against God.

God foreknew does not mean He sanctioned it let alone planned it, He forbade....get it firmly in your mind He forbade it. What part of forbid spells planned?

What God DID predestine was man's redemption.

Read it again. What God did predestinate was what he would do to those who recieved or accepted his redemption. Those whom he foreknew he predestined to be made into the image of Christ. Sound familiar? That is a direct quote from Romans. That is a lifelong process that begins at redemption.

 

[Krsto]

bump

 

[Arthur Brain]

You don't have a clue what God's eternal purpose is. God's eternal purpose is to create "little Christs," people who are made into the image of Christ who was in the image of God (fully), and that is what the predestined are predestined to while those who of their own free will chose not to accept the invitation from God simply die and cease to exist in the end.

Do those who simply have doubts until death choose not to accept this invitation though? How are they by free will choosing to die? I don't see how you can make that argument.

 

[Krsto]

Do those who simply have doubts until death choose not to accept this invitation though? How are they by free will choosing to die? I don't see how you can make that argument.

Perhaps "choose" is not the best word for everyone involved, certainly not for those who did not hear the invitation to begin with. It is true that the Gospel is not heard by everyone so they don't even know there is something others are being invited to but for most people they figure death is their end anyway. Maybe aquiescing to a "default state" after death would be a better way to put it?

 

[Arthur Brain]

Perhaps "choose" is not the best word for everyone involved, certainly not for those who did not hear the invitation to begin with. It is true that the Gospel is not heard by everyone so they don't even know there is something others are being invited to but for most people they figure death is their end anyway. Maybe aquiescing to a "default state" after death would be a better way to put it?

I think it's too simplistic in honesty. If people figure that death is the end then they're neither choosing that but nor are they choosing to reject an invitation for something else beyond that either as I see it for the most part. They've simply arrived at a conclusion haven't they even if it were to be erroneous? Add into the mix the myriad obstacles that beset life then it's little wonder that many have doubts along the path isn't it? Do they deserve to be extinguished for being fallible while the more 'astute' in a short life gain paradise?

 

[Krsto]

I think it's too simplistic in honesty. If people figure that death is the end then they're neither choosing that but nor are they choosing to reject an invitation for something else beyond that either as I see it for the most part. They've simply arrived at a conclusion haven't they even if it were to be erroneous? Add into the mix the myriad obstacles that beset life then it's little wonder that many have doubts along the path isn't it? Do they deserve to be extinguished for being fallible while the more 'astute' in a short life gain paradise?

For the most part I think you're right that people don't really "choose" death but on rare occasions some people do, if they accept the premise that not responding to the Gospel will lead ultimately to death.

As far as what is deserved, I don't think those who don't hear the Gospel deserve death nor do they deserve eternal suffering or eternal life. Grace has provided the blessing but it is conditional on first of all hearing the invitation and second of all accepting it. When you put death in terms of something that is deserved you make it sound like a punishment and I'm not sure that's what's in mind when they use the term "wages" for sin. But if it is I'm OK with that.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Read it again. What God did predestinate was what he would do to those who recieved or accepted his redemption. Those whom he foreknew he predestined to be made into the image of Christ. Sound familiar? That is a direct quote from Romans. That is a lifelong process that begins at redemption.

*
That is about what I've always said...I am always ready to be shown if someone can show me from scipture I am wrong in a matter.