toldailytopic: The reprobate. Are some people born with no hope of salvation?

[beloved57]

Paul made it clear when discussing the gentiles that some people were without God and without Hope. Eph 2:12

That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

 

[andyc]

Faith does not change the total depravity of man.

I just can't see how this can make sense.

The lusts and passions of the flesh are aroused by the law, but in Christ we are not bound to the law. If regenerate saints remained totally depraved they would be powerless against temptation. They would still be in bondage.

 

[john_aurelius]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for July 12th, 2011 08:59 AM

toldailytopic: The reprobate. Are some people born with no hope of salvation?

All have the hope of salvation but only those who come to faith (the elect) will have any assurance or certainty.

A person can never have the assurace of reprobation.

 

[andyc]

God did NOT CAUSE Adam to sin..LOL

Yes He did.

]

 

[Granite]

So, how can you tell if someone's beyond the point of no return?

 

[Nang]

So, how can you tell if someone's beyond the point of no return?

We can't . . . and should not judge another to be reprobate, because there is no way of knowing the final fate of other persons. Only God knows.

So we faithfully witness to the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the grace of God in hopes for all, that sinners might be brought to repentance, according to God's will.

Nang

 

[Totton Linnet]

What should be emphasized here is not "choice" or supposed "free" will teaching, but human responsibility before one's Maker.

God gave Adam the duty and moral agency (ability to secondarily cause and effect) in order to live according to His holiness.

God revealed this human responsibility through commands. God's creational laws reveal the holiness of the Godhead, and man was made responsible to live accordingly.

Adam was never "free" to live otherwise, without consequence of judgment and death.

And after Adam failed to exercise his God-given moral agency and responsibility according to the commands of God, Adam lost all ability to submit to divine holiness and righteousness altogether.

Thus, we see fallen mankind still held responsible by God to live moral lives according to God's holiness, but bereft of any ability to do so.

Yes, man is a willful creature, but his will is corrupted and totally depraved and no man is able or willing to live up to God's moral standards. That is what makes all of us "covenant-breakers." Hosea 6:7

(Luther's "The Bondage Of The Will" is excellent reading to get a grasp on this subject.)

Jesus Christ is the only Man who has ever exercised the human will in perfect obedience; thereby fulfilling all human duty and responsibility fully before God. It is trust and faith in HIS CHOICES and works of righteousness under the Law, that makes us acceptable before God.

I consider the teaching of "free" will in men, to be a misnomer and a terrible theological distraction . . . for even though we all possess wills with which we make decisions and choices, our wills are not free to choose righteousness. We can only respond with faith in Jesus Christ by the grace of God gifted to us; submitting to His sovereign will and word.

For without faith it is impossible to please Him. Hebrews 11:6



Nang

This is an excellent post Nang, Luther's "Bondage of the will" is indeed the best gospel writing outside the bible....this was the ONLY protestant line for a hundred years. What people call free will God calls rebellion.

 

[beloved57]

So, how can you tell if someone's beyond the point of no return?

You really can't because the elect before conversion act like the reprobate, However, until one shows signs or indications of believing the Truth of the Gospel of God, we should not consider them a believer but an unbeliever, no matter how religious they are. One of the evidences of being an elect is belief of the Truth. 2 Thess 2:13

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Titus 1:1

1Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

 

[beloved57]

nang:

God gave Adam the duty and moral agency (ability to secondarily cause and effect) in order to live according to His holiness.

Adam was never given that Ability,to Live Holy ,neither in and of himself was He holy.

Christ is the Holiness of God's People, and Adam's rebellion made that evident.

God did not give Adam the ability to keep the Law either, for that was proved as soon as Eve was tempted by the devil that she had no innate ability to keep the Law of God.

God's purpose for giving them the Law was to expose their creature weakness and sinfulness, even after being created in the best suitable idea circumstances.

Paul said Rom 7:

7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Eve by the Temptation of satan came to know Lust that was in her[By Creation] ! It was because God said " Thou shalt not eat"

The Natural Man, even Adam, cannot keep the Law of God Rom 8:7

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Adam and Eve after being pronounced very good in their Creation by God was still nothing but Carnal.

What does that mean ? its the word sarx:

flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts

the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God

Yes, Adam and Eve was given a perfect human nature ,a perfect earthly nature. Scripture says of Adam that he was made earthy 1 Cor 15:47

47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Now to argue that God made Adam with the ability to keep the Law of God is fruitless, because evidence of that is seen in Gen 3 ! The responsibility Yes, the Ability No..

 

[Totton Linnet]

God is not tempted with evil nor does He [test] tempt any man, sin is entirely man's doing. However God foresaw that some would fall and so constituted man under federal headship [i.e. we were in Adam] in order that He could deal in mercy [or at all] with the whole race. Whether they would be saved or not.

 

[Nang]

nang:



Adam was never given that Ability,to Live Holy ,neither in and of himself was He holy.

I did not say Adam was given the ability to live like God, but Adam was given revelation of God's holiness through the commands, and was also given the responsibility to submit and live in awe of God's holiness.

The Law was not given as a set of "requirements" for Adam to earn everlasting life, because Godly principle is clear that no salvation comes through lawkeeping.

The Law (revelation of the holiness and goodness of God) was provision of grace and divine guidelines for Adam's good and healthy living.

There is a big difference.

And when Adam disregarded the holiness and goodness of God (revelation of the Law), he broke God's commands . . . and the Law, as you say, was then not only the revelation of God's holiness, but also a light than shone upon man and woman, revealing their corruption and sinful state. The Law took on two purposes after the fall.

The Law today still is revelation of God Almighty and the Law today still reveals how short man falls from the glory of God.

However, by the goodness and grace of God, the Law also shows sinners their need of a Saviour, and it has the third purpose of again being a holy guideline for Christian living, for those gifted with faith in the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

The Law of God is a fearful thing in the hands of God; but the Law is holy and good as God is holy and good.

Christ is the Holiness of God's People,

Indeed! And Jesus Christ is the Word of God become flesh. And the Word of God is revelation of God that has always come from God through both natural law and the moral law (formal commands).

and Adam's rebellion made that evident.

God did not give Adam the ability to keep the Law either, for that was proved as soon as Eve was tempted by the devil that she had no innate ability to keep the Law of God.

God's purpose for giving them the Law was to expose their creature weakness and sinfulness, even after being created in the best suitable idea circumstances.

I agree with this and with all the rest of your post:

Paul said Rom 7:

7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Eve by the Temptation of satan came to know Lust that was in her[By Creation] ! It was because God said " Thou shalt not eat"

The Natural Man, even Adam, cannot keep the Law of God Rom 8:7

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Adam and Eve after being pronounced very good in their Creation by God was still nothing but Carnal.

What does that mean ? its the word sarx:

flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts

the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God

Yes, Adam and Eve was given a perfect human nature ,a perfect earthly nature. Scripture says of Adam that he was made earthy 1 Cor 15:47

47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Now to argue that God made Adam with the ability to keep the Law of God is fruitless, because evidence of that is seen in Gen 3 ! The responsibility Yes, the Ability No..

 

[Nang]

What people call free will God calls rebellion.

Very good!

I am glad we can both recommend Martin Luther's "Bondage Of The Will" to others. It should be read by every Christian, IMO.

Nang

 

[Brother Ducky]

So, how can you tell if someone's beyond the point of no return?

They are physically dead.

Peace,
Rick

 

[beloved57]

nang:

I did not say Adam was given the ability to live like God

I did not say you said that !

but Adam was given revelation of God's holiness through the commands,

You going off into left field now !

The Law was not given as a set of "requirements" for Adam to earn everlasting life,

Who said anything about that ?

You going off on this tangent. I simply stated that God did not give adam the abilty to keep His Law. Adam was responsible to keep it, but he did not have the abilty to. He was carnal. God wanted, willed that Adam would sin and bring death into the world. Do you believe that ?

 

[beloved57]

God determines what He does and what shall be done by others. God determined that Adam should sin and be responsible for sin and death entering into His World. The only way to deny this is to say that God did not know[which is blasphemy] before He created Adam and put him in the garden that adam would sin. For what casually appears to be the free acts of men, are nothing less than the determination of God. Prov 19:21

21There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

That means, ultimately that man does what God wanted or purposed for him to do.

 

[Totton Linnet]

God determines what He does and what shall be done by others. God determined that Adam should sin and be responsible for sin and death entering into His World. The only way to deny this is to say that God did not know[which is blasphemy] before He created Adam and put him in the garden that adam would sin. For what casually appears to be the free acts of men, are nothing less than the determination of God. Prov 19:21

21There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

That means, ultimately that man does what God wanted or purposed for him to do.

*
To say that God caused sin and death to His creation is just about as blasphemeous a statement you can make. It would make God evil and the author of evil. To say it is unbelieveably evil

God FORBADE sin and warned earnestly against it, Adam under deception rebelled against God.

God foreknew does not mean He sanctioned it let alone planned it, He forbade....get it firmly in your mind He forbade it. What part of forbid spells planned?

What God DID predestine was man's redemption.

 

[beloved57]

tot:

To say that God caused sin and death to His creation is just about as blasphemeous a statement you can make.

To say He did not cause it to His Creation is just as blasphemous a statement you can make !

What God DID predestine was man's redemption.

Duh, Yes..Thats why He Predestinated sin. What else is redemption from ?

 

[Totton Linnet]

You just do not know how wicked a thing it is to say that God could either be tempted to sin or to say that He Himself tempted any to sin, it was a shocker when the Pharisees accused Jesus of effecting good works by an evil spirit, that was wicked thing to say.

But YOU go even further by declaring that God is Himself the Author of sin.

God forbade man to participate in evil or in the knowledge of good and evil. Man was free to choose, free choice is not free will for if he chose to live or if he chose to die the consequences were predestined. But that is not to say that God predestined man's action in rebelling for all that God knew that He would.

It is in this foreknowledge that God predestined to save man.

 

[beloved57]

tot:

You just do not know how wicked a thing it is to say that God could either be tempted to sin

Where did I post that ?

or to say that He Himself tempted any to sin

Where did I post that ?

 

[Totton Linnet]

tot:



To say He did not cause it to His Creation is just as blasphemous a statement you can make !



Duh, Yes..Thats why He Predestinated sin. What else is redemption from ?

*
To say God caused man to sin is even more heinious than to say He tempted him to sin. You are in deep darkness B57.