toldailytopic: The reprobate. Are some people born with no hope of salvation?

[Nihilo]

Right now, at this moment, everybody has hope. If a man dies in unbelief, then he did not have hope.

Huh?

The man who dies in unbelief DID have hope, he just didn't act upon it.

I know that I'm not going to convince you to agree, and I'm okay with that; this is merely my response. I equate your words [he] DID have hope, he just didn't act upon it with my words he did not have hope - they mean the same thing to me.

In the present, everybody has hope, and I know we agree about that.

 

[frostmanj]

I believe in total depravity in the sense that ALL have sinned and are deserving of death. It is proof of God's love for us that he came down took the real form of man and bore the old testament requirement for a blood sacrifice. He did this to fulfill the the requirement of the law that we would no longer need to live by the old laws. In doing he created a new law. That belief in Jesus Christ (and therefore the recognition of God's sacrifice and love for us) would be the new law for salvation. He did not do this for a chosen few, for by the old law, none are worthy. He did this for all man kind out of love. He only asks for a return of that love through faith.

 

[Brother Ducky]

No Calvinists want to weigh in?

My weight has nothing at all to do with the answer.

I would have to say yes, indeedy, do.

But with the understanding that only God knows who the reprobate are in this world, and that the reprobate will only answer for their own real sins.

Peace,
Rick

 

[Cruciform]

The reprobate. Are some people born with no hope of salvation?

It's up to the individual and his chosen response to divine grace. Thus, everyone is born with the "hope of salvation." That being said, there are some whom God knows will ultimately reject his grace, but that is another issue entirely. Omniscience does not determine or cause soteriology.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+

 

[chickenman]

I believe in total depravity in the sense that ALL have sinned and are deserving of death. It is proof of God's love for us that he came down took the real form of man and bore the old testament requirement for a blood sacrifice. He did this to fulfill the the requirement of the law that we would no longer need to live by the old laws. In doing he created a new law. That belief in Jesus Christ (and therefore the recognition of God's sacrifice and love for us) would be the new law for salvation. He did not do this for a chosen few, for by the old law, none are worthy. He did this for all man kind out of love. He only asks for a return of that love through faith.

That's not the "total depravity" of TULIP, though. That "T" says that no man can even make the choice to have faith. A man is incapable of reaching up to grab the rope dangling to save him. People today like to say things like, "I'm a 3-point Calvinist", etc. But one is either all 5 points, or none at all. For the definitions of the phrases represented in TULIP are very specific. Based on what you've written, then you could never (thankfully) stake a claim to the T of TULIP.

 

[Sherman]

Based on what you've written, then you could never (thankfully) stake a claim to the T of TULIP.

Does that make it an ULIP than? :chuckle:

 

[Nick M]

That's not the "total depravity" of TULIP, though. That "T" says that no man can even make the choice to have faith. A man is incapable of reaching up to grab the rope dangling to save him. People today like to say things like, "I'm a 3-point Calvinist", etc. But one is either all 5 points, or none at all. For the definitions of the phrases represented in TULIP are very specific. Based on what you've written, then you could never (thankfully) stake a claim to the T of TULIP.

I think from a point of view, no man does make the choice. But taking in all that Paul tells us, God draws all unto him. So we all do desire to reach, except those in complete rebellion. Well, they also desire to reach, but won't.

 

[chickenman]

Does that make it an ULIP than? :chuckle:

I would be a .

 

[chickenman]

I think from a point of view, no man does make the choice. But taking in all that Paul tells us, God draws all unto him. So we all do desire to reach, except those in complete rebellion. Well, they also desire to reach, but won't.

Tell me more of what you mean with "from a point of view, no man does make a choice."

Thanks, Nick.

RA

 

[genuineoriginal]

The Bible speaks of two reprobates that are born with no hope of salvation.

Judas.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.​

The beast.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;​

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.​

Everyone else has a chance.

 

[Krsto]

The Bible speaks of two reprobates that are born with no hope of salvation.

Judas.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.​

The beast.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;​

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.​

Everyone else has a chance.

I don't see why the term "son of perdition (destruction)" means they had no choice. The term merely states their end and says nothing about how they got there.

BTW - The term "reprobate", at least as used by the KJV, seems to be for Christians who fall away just as much as for those who never knew Christ:

Tit. 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

 

[Brother Ducky]

That's not the "total depravity" of TULIP, though. That "T" says that no man can even make the choice to have faith. A man is incapable of reaching up to grab the rope dangling to save him. People today like to say things like, "I'm a 3-point Calvinist", etc. But one is either all 5 points, or none at all. For the definitions of the phrases represented in TULIP are very specific. Based on what you've written, then you could never (thankfully) stake a claim to the T of TULIP.

Randy,
Thanks for pointing out the fact that there is a meaning to "total depravity" [and other theological terms, as well] and, by implication, that meaningful discussion can only take place if we are using common definitions for our terms.

On the other hand, why would one be thankful about not holding to the "T" of TULIP? :idunno:

 

[beloved57]

Yes, God has made some men specifically for eternal damnation, they are the vessels of wrath, and they are being fitted for destruction. Rom 9:21-22

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

These men and women are born to be taken and be destroyed, they never had any hope of salvation 2 Pet 2:12

12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

 

[Nang]

Here is the Reformed view of "Reprobation" (i.e. many souls are consigned by God Almighty God to hell for sin):

Reprobation is not the cause of unbelief.

Reprobation is not because of unbelief.

God accomplishes sovereignly His eternal decree of reprobation IN THE WAY OF UNBELIEF.

In this way, God's sovereignty is maintained and man's accountability is preserved.

Do not reply to this post within ten seconds, ten minutes, or even ten days.

Think about the above statements for awhile . . .

Reflect on this explanation of the doctrine of Reprobation for a decent period of time before you either reply in agreement with this position as being totally Scriptural and sound, or reject this explanation as being unbiblical and therefore wrong.



Nang

 

[Ktoyou]

Total depravity is an original state, which is changed by faith. Think about that!

 

[Nick M]

Tell me more of what you mean with "from a point of view, no man does make a choice."

Thanks, Nick.

RA

Sure. Just what Paul taught, including when he taugh from the "Old Testament".

No man is righteous, no man seeks after God. We all turned aside. So the short answer to our belief is that Jesus said when he is lifted up, he will draw all unto himself. So we all seek, some just don't admit it, and choose rebellion. Those of us in the Body of Christ didn't turn away when he drew us in. And that doesn't mean we immediately came into the body. Lots of people have trouble admitting when they are wrong. I don't pretend to be exempt in that manner. I rebelled for a long time.

So, that is my point of view. He was raised up, and drew us in. And we still had to recieve the gift. A two way street. I don't agree with what I have read the Calvinists claim. That he only draws certain people, and he has condemned certain people. That would be a sick and twisted God to such a thing. Regarding Calvinism and the Open View, the Bible is very clear that not all details are hashed out in advanced. Right from the beginning in Genesis. And the Bible is very clear that salvation is offered to all men. And the Bible is very clear that many are not found written in the book of life, so they rejected his offer of salvation.

 

[chickenman]

Randy,
Thanks for pointing out the fact that there is a meaning to "total depravity" [and other theological terms, as well] and, by implication, that meaningful discussion can only take place if we are using common definitions for our terms.

On the other hand, why would one be thankful about not holding to the "T" of TULIP? :idunno:

Hi, Brother Ducky.

Because the official T of TULIP says that man is incapable of reaching up to grab the rope that is extended to save him. Yet, permeating the scriptures is the consistent message that man must grab the rope. So while I recognize that man is incapable of saving himself and is total depraved in that sense, man is commanded to choose and to obey. Therefore, he cannot be "Totally Depraved" according to the TULIP definition.

Aren't you thankful when hearing of someone who does not accept that which believes to be unbiblical?

Thanks,
Randy

 

[Nang]

Total depravity is an original state, which is changed by faith. Think about that!

The original state of created man was innocent and upright.

However, this innocent and upright man failed to display faith in the word and promises of God.

Think longer about that.

Nang

 

[Arthur Brain]

The original state of created man was innocent and upright.

However, this innocent and upright man failed to display faith in the word and promises of God.

Think longer about that.

Nang

Then how did man manage to usurp the Sovereign will of God to begin with? :liberals:

 

[Nang]

man is commanded to choose and to obey. Therefore, he cannot be "Totally Depraved" according to the TULIP definition.

You are convoluting the Law of God with the sinful condition of man.

Man is declared totally depraved according to the Law, because it is impossible for man to live in perfect holiness like God, and because man cannot earn or merit righteousness according to said Law. (Romans 3:20)

You are assuming that because the word of God still holds man accountable to believe and repent from sin, that God does not really condemn sinners for breaking His moral standards.

But God does just that . . .

Not causing unbelief, or because of unbelief, but through the way of unbelief.

Think about that statement for at least ten days, please . . .

Nang



Nang