toldailytopic: Imagine by John Lennon: love it or hate it?

[elohiym]

Lets take a look at the lyrics.....

Okay.

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try

I think he's saying imagine there's no heaven "out there" but that it's already here.

Luke 17:20-21 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people living for today

Not everyone believes God will give wicked people a form of eternal life and then torture them for eternity. Annihilation is quick and just.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

And by "living for today" he means not living in fear of tomorrow.

Matthew 6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do

How many countries will remain in the end?

Isaiah 34:2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he has utterly destroyed them, he has delivered them to the slaughter.

Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people living life in peace

Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Imagine that. It's easy if you try.

You, you may say
I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be as one

John 17:21-22 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Either God did that for all men (the world) or just Calvinists.

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can

Can you imagine that God actually owns everything?

Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Anybody not in Him owns nothing. Anybody in Him owns everything. No possessions does not mean no stewardship; it doesn't mean involuntary collectivism.

No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people sharing all the world

Isaiah 58:6-7 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

You, you may say
I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will live as one

He's not the only one, for sure.

 

[elohiym]

Did Hitler's? :think:

Proverbs 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

 

[elohiym]

All talent comes from God.

Indeed.

 

[elohiym]

Abosolutely it did but, did he give God any glory for it?

That's irrelevant to my point, and I didn't live with the man. He obviously was familiar with fundamental concepts found in God's word and His prophecies.

The premise for this song is that faith in God is a bad thing, not a good one.

I disagree. The Body of Christ is not a religion. It is the literal Body of God wherein the members worship in Spirit and Truth.

 

[Selaphiel]

I think there are two scales: one is about craftsmanship and the other value. A symphony is inarguably more complex and difficult to set out than a three and a half minute pop song or a mostly extemporaneous jazz piece over established chord structures. But does the amount of work needed go to the value? Do we suggest that a haiku is of less value than a sonnet because of its complexity and length? And if not, doesn't creative genius come from the same place? And isn't the value in artistic genius found in its communication and the impact of it? And if that's so all art reduces to the individual and any discussion beyond that is just tallying degree across a range. But to what end? So maybe I'm arguing against and for both of us then...

Length is not central. An art film is not necessarily longer than a blockbuster. The different is the aim of the content. When I view a blockbuster, I do it delibaretly to get some cheap and fast entertainment, it is essentially junk food. A Tarkovsky or Bergman movie is not necessarily entertaining in the same way, but it speaks to something deeper than a typical blockbuster. Mainly because its main objective is not entertainment in the same sense that a blockbuster seeks to entertain.
In the same way I think much pop music plays on familiar notes, the equivalent of cheap entertainment of blockbusters. I think music can be more than that (not necessarily excluding popular music in the process). For me at least, good music breaks new ground and experiments with genre conventions and with the conventions of music and sound itself. The Beatles did that to a certain degree, they more or less made the pop genre. But in my eyes at least that is not necessarily so positive since it has become a stagnant and predictable genre.

Again, what distinguishes? And who? And of what importance is that distinction?

I think it is quite easy to distinguish a movie by Tarkovsky, Bergman or any other direction when compared to the typical blockbuster. It is like comparing Dan Brown to Dostoyevksy or Tolstoy, they simply are not doing the same even if their medium is ultimately the same.The difference in music is more vague and harder to put into words since it is a more abstract form, but I believe it is there.

Sounds to me like you're only suggesting what you value is more valuable. Why and how so?

Not necessarily. I can value genres that do not speak to me personally. I enjoy most genres though. Pop and gangster rap being the exceptions.

Since no other band or composer has had anything like the impact of the Beatles on the perception and evolution of a musical movement I don't see it.

If you measure music as what most people listen to today that is probably true. But I reject that what is popular gets to define the thing itself. I think others have more radically broken conventions and contributed to the creative development of what constitutes music itself. Free jazz being a prime example of that. Such radical challenges have contributed immensely to music, although not to popular music.

I'm certainly no authority in musical theory. More on the level of "ME NO KNOW ART, BUT ME KNOW WHAT ME LIKE" to quote the always profound, Cookie Monster (uttered after eating his own painting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FphUTJqCA3c).

:e4e:

 

[rocketman]

That's irrelevant to my point, and I didn't live with the man. He obviously was familiar with fundamental concepts found in God's word and His prophecies.



I disagree. The Body of Christ is not a religion. It is the literal Body of God wherein the members worship in Spirit and Truth.

I don't think we will find agreement here elo, Lennon was a Godless man who sang in this song that God was source of the worlds problems, He was "imagining" a utopian world where God does not exist and we would all be better for it. Knight nailed it, the song is nothing more than a naive platitude. It is not realistic to those of us that know there is a God and the source of evil is sin. Really there is no other way to interpret what Lennon said here from my POV.

 

[Stripe]

Elo thinks Lennon was singing scripture now? :doh:

 

[elohiym]

Elo thinks Lennon was singing scripture now? :doh:

Proverbs 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

 

[some other dude]

Looks like elo's putting himself on ignore. :chuckle:

 

[Rusha]

"Imagine" is not a religious song. So using a religious paradigm to judge it seems like a stupid thing to do, to me. Sort of like judging a Clint Black song by how well it plays in a European discotheque. Of course the hip, young, eurotrash crowd at the disco aren't going to appreciate it.

But the song "Imagine" seems to speak to a lot of non-religious people who believe in peace and brotherhood just the same. And any song that can express the feelings of so many folks, so well, deserves some respect.

:thumb:

 

[Bright Raven]

I like the melody even though I cannot say much for the lyrics.

 

[elohiym]

I don't think we will find agreement here elo,...

So be it.

Lennon was a Godless man who sang in this song that God was source of the worlds problems,

No. He didn't. The lyrics were posted. I addressed them. You can address my actual points, or continue as you are disparaging a man whose heart you never knew.

He was "imagining" a utopian world where God does not exist and we would all be better for it.

No. He wasn't. He was imagining a world where idolatry doesn't exist, where religion doesn't exist, where everybody is one in some sense, and everyone fed and clothed, and where there is peace. These sentiments are virtually identical to the Bible concepts that state the same.

Knight nailed it, the song is nothing more than a naive platitude.

Then blessed are the naive, for they shall see God.

It is not realistic to those of us that know there is a God and the source of evil is sin.

The source of evil is unbelief, not sin. Murder doesn't murder people; unbelievers murder people.

Really there is no other way to interpret what Lennon said here from my POV.

I've heard you. So be it.

 

[elohiym]

Looks like elo's putting himself on ignore. :chuckle:

Proverbs 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

 

[Traditio]

Gay sissy garbage. Just sayin. :idunno:

 

[Rusha]

I know what you are saying... but can you at least acknowledge that the view point "we should all just love each other" is a naive platitude?

In the society we live in? Certainly. However, IMO, I think John's point was pretty much summarized by the title of the song "Imagine".

Imagine if selfish, uncaring individuals would for one moment actually think of others outside of their small worldview for a moment.

Is it possible? Probably not.

 

[some other dude]

Gay sissy hippie garbage from the original sissy Boy Band.

 

[Stripe]

Looks like elo's putting himself on ignore. :chuckle:

It certainly isn't me or you he is ignoring. :chuckle:

 

[Traditio]

Gay sissy hippie garbage from the original sissy Boy Band.

SoD, it will likely be years before I ever post these words to you again:

I completely agree with you.

 

[some other dude]

In the society we live in? Certainly. However, IMO, I think John's point was pretty much summarized by the title of the song "Imagine".

Imagine if selfish, uncaring individuals would for one moment actually think of others outside of their small worldview for a moment.

Is it possible? Probably not.

Imagine Lennon gave away his $150 million to help others.

Imagine he wasn't a hypocrite waxing fat on the gullibility of naive idiots.

Imagine he had donated the proceeds from the sales of that one album to charity. :think:

 

[elohiym]

Gay sissy garbage. Just sayin. :idunno:

Gay sissy hippie garbage from the original sissy Boy Band.

Proverbs 26:7 The legs of the lame are not equal: so is a parable in the mouth of fools.