toldailytopic: Can God change His mind?

[Lon]

Can God say He is going to do something and then choose NOT to do what He said He would do?

Thanks, brother.
Randy

James 1:6-8 tells us that having a double-mind is sin/wrong. How could we ever attribute to God a "change of mind" about anything without attributing to Him sinfulness? I have seen answers, but none of them suffice for me. It looks as though one is saying "God is relational enough to 'lie' to us." I'd appreciate any OVer actually able to distance from that assessment, but you'll have to work hard. Everything I've seen up until now sets God up as "double-minded, unstable in all His ways..." How can I even entertain such an idea of God changing His mind when it so readily leads to a logical problem of attributing to God, our sinful understandings?

 

[john w]

The removal of repentance from sin from your gospel = no gospel.
You're only into the feel good carnal flesh fest message.

"Before God justifies us, we have to choose to repent and commit ourselves to him..We are repenting of our sin nature, as well as asking for forgiveness of sins previously committed…."-andycain


vs.

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Rom. 4:5 KJV


Contrasts.

Oh, yes:

"Repentance means to turn from sin... We have to turn from our evil deeds in order to receive salvation"

 

[john w]

Luke 13:3 .....unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

Luke 24:47 "and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 3:19 "Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,

Mark 6:12 So they went out and preached that people should repent.

2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

2 Timothy 2:25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.




Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done................

But Peter said to him, "Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! 21 "You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God. 22 "Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 "For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity."

In order to get around these awkward verses, the hyper dispensationalists invent different gospels for different dispensations, but you never see them mentioned in scripture.

translated: All of scripture is written specifically to me, Judas Jr., is about me, and is for my obedience, and is my marching orders.

Perverter. You can "prove" anything.

Oh, yes..."raise the dead' is also written to you.

Pentecostal, "charismatic" flim flam "man," and wolf.


Get saved, and cease from your perversions.

"Luke 13:3 .....unless you repent you will all likewise perish."-Judas, Jr...............................................................................................................................................................................................


The LORD God repented. Judas repented.

Clueless.

 

[andyc]

"Before God justifies us, we have to choose to repent and commit ourselves to him..We are repenting of our sin nature, as well as asking for forgiveness of sins previously committed…."-andycain


vs.

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Rom. 4:5 KJV


Contrasts.

Oh, yes:

"Repentance means to turn from sin... We have to turn from our evil deeds in order to receive salvation"

Luke 13:3 "I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

 

[organiccornflake]

If god knows all events that will happen, then is it really changing his mind? If he can predict everthing in the future (including his own actions) then how can he ever change his mind?

If I tell you I won't type "Scrabble Jops lulu," knowing full and good that I will with 100% certainty, then I tell you I will, that wouldn't be changing my mind, that would mean that my first statement was a lie.

Scrabble Jops Lulu.

 

[andyc]

translated: All of scripture is written specifically to me, Judas Jr., is about me, and is for my obedience, and is my marching orders.

Perverter. You can "prove" anything.

Oh, yes..."raise the dead' is also written to you.

Pentecostal, "charismatic" flim flam "man," and wolf.


Get saved, and cease from your perversions.

No response, except to change the subject yet again and focus on pentecostal issues.

 

[chickenman]

James 1:6-8 tells us that having a double-mind is sin/wrong. How could we ever attribute to God a "change of mind" about anything without attributing to Him sinfulness? I have seen answers, but none of them suffice for me. It looks as though one is saying "God is relational enough to 'lie' to us." I'd appreciate any OVer actually able to distance from that assessment, but you'll have to work hard. Everything I've seen up until now sets God up as "double-minded, unstable in all His ways..." How can I even entertain such an idea of God changing His mind when it so readily leads to a logical problem of attributing to God, our sinful understandings?

Hi, Lon.

Is "double-minded" the only option available? In other words, is it POSSIBLE that God can say that He will do something and then choose to not do that something...and it be something other than double-mindedness?

I asked my previous question with very specific wording. I asked: "Can God say He is going to do something and then choose NOT to do what He said He would do?" I used that wording specifically, because Jeremiah 18 says specifically that God can say He is going to do something and then choose to not do something. Here it is again:

At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them. Jer. 18:7-10​

Lon, according to Jeremiah 18, can God "speak concerning a nation...to pluck it up, to pull down, and to destroy it"? If He can do that, then can that nation "turn from their evil"? If so, can God (who said He would pluck it up, etc) then "repent of the evil that [He] thought to do unto them" and do so without being double-minded?

I think you need to reevaluate the choices you've set forth (that God either must be unrelenting, or else He is double-minded), Lon. Because if words have any meaning at all, then Jeremiah 18 is pretty clear.

Thanks for the dialogue,
Randy

 

[andyc]

If god knows all events that will happen, then is it really changing his mind? If he can predict everthing in the future (including his own actions) then how can he ever change his mind?

If I tell you I won't type "Scrabble Jops lulu," knowing full and good that I will with 100% certainty, then I tell you I will, that wouldn't be changing my mind, that would mean that my first statement was a lie.

Scrabble Jops Lulu.

God doesn't change his mind.
Judgement simply gets deflected when people repent. Sin is always judged, but if people repent, the sin is deflected onto Christ.

When we look at the prophecies that Jacob spoke of his sons (and Joseph's), these promises were certain, but if God had destroyed all the tribes of Israel that he had threatened to do (making Moses a great nation), God would have lied through Jacob.

God has to both fulfil his promises but at the same time make people aware of the seriousness of disobedience, hence Moses was raised up as a mediator/intercessor on behalf of Israel.

 

[Lon]

Hello CM,

Hi, Lon.
I think you need to reevaluate the choices you've set forth (that God either must be unrelenting, or else He is double-minded), Lon. Because if words have any meaning at all, then Jeremiah 18 is pretty clear.

Thanks for the dialogue,
Randy

Yes, of course let's re-evaluate but please do so for me here too. It is specifically this that has us troubled over Open View propositions so I too welcome the dialogue. Neither of us want those implications sticking in our mind, but it is indeed this that is so troubling. In actuality, you are portraying my thoughts on this as well - that God can propose two (or more) sets of consequences for any given action. I absolutely see a difference between a conditional and unconditional promise as well.

For instance, I'm not double-minded if I say "clean your room, then we'll go out for ice cream." It is fairly clear, regardless that we disagree on what God knows about such beforehand, this is important discussion for what we need to agree on: specifically, that you aren't seeing me as 'repenting' in a fashion that would lead toward a double-mindedness. If my kids do not clean their room yet I take them out for ice cream, I've presented a double-standard: that they don't have to do what I tell them. It may very well be my intention to teach them about grace and mercy in that, but it wouldn't be a 'change of mind' but rather a clear indication of where my mind is at all along on such things.

The more consistent I am as a parent, that is, the more my kids understand my consistencies rather than where I'm unpredictable because of my frequent mind-changes, the better I will effectively relate to my children.

God too is very concerned with His own "Yes" and "No's" in consistency. So much so, in fact, that He instructs very clearly that we don't break promises or oaths, but that we simply say what we mean and mean what we say. It is specifically, God's integrity and trustworthiness that resists the Open View notion here of God randomly and inconsistently giving in to a whim. Rather, we believe His character, even if He doesn't have EDF, is such that we can bank on Him. That a change of mind isn't really what we are talking about, but rather a singular mind on specific issues that we can trust and consistently bank on, no matter what. For that reason specifically, it is most efficient to say rather than 'changing His mind' that God is predictably dependable and consistent against sin and in Grace and Mercy and will never change His mind about these things.

What specifically does the Open Theist desire and/or try to convey when they portray God as 'changing His mind?' What comfort is such intending to give to an individual and how isn't a God who is consistent and predictable (trustworthy) not as much, let alone more of a comfort for the Open Theist?

Thanks Randy.

In Him,

Lon

 

[Lighthouse]

Can God change His mind?

At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them. Jer. 18:7-10​

It doesn't get much more conclusive than this. So you can go ahead and move onto the next ToD, Knight. :e4e:

Well, that's settled.:thumb:

Ah, a variation on a classic. Let's see ... sure, but I expect it would be unnecessary.

Can God countermand his own commands? Can God act contrary to his own desires? Can God choose not to be omniscient, since he's omnipotent?

These are all questions that are based on the limitations of human experience. They don't have answers when applied to "God". It's like trying to measure a sunset with a ruler.

The real question is, "Can God rescind His own commands?"

This is not an example of God changing His mind. It is an example of God's people repenting of their sins and getting themselves back into a right covenant relationship with God. It is the people who changed their minds, as per Deuteronomy 11:26-28.

:rotfl:

FYI: I'm laughing at you.:mockaulos

If God knows the beginning and the end.. the question really is "why would he need to change his mind?"

Scripture?

Or:

Because a lot of things happen in between? :idunno:

:thumb:

If he knows the end.. he knows everything in between.. and must be happy with what happens in between, so him ever changing his mind would kind of be unnecessary.. wouldn't it?

Scripture?

I disagree.. God has the game rigged so the referees calls have the outcome predetermined.

Scripture?

Can God change His mind?

Normally I just read the posts and smile a bit, but I like this question.
I have to say, if God can't change his mind when he likes he wouldn't be much of a God and if he didn't change his mind from time to time I kind of think we would all have been toast a long time ago.

:thumb:

That's only true within the actor. But in this case the actor is not the omniscient one. God is. So although we (the actor) don't know what choice we will make until we make it, God (the omniscient) still can. Our "freedom" exists because of our limited knowledge.

Yes, but this doesn't preclude God from knowing what we will choose before we choose it. Nor does it invalidate the idea that God set all things in motion, and knows how it will all play out.

According to this framework free will is an illusion. And if we are going to call ourselves followers of God then we must submit to His ways, which are above our ways, and if He has such foreknowledge then we must admit that we have no free will, even if we appear to in our limited scope.

The other side of this coin is that if God has such foreknowledge then He has no free will. So you're saying that if the God of the Bible is real then He is not free? I ask you, what kind of god is one who is not free?

The removal of repentance from sin from your gospel = no gospel.
You're only into the feel good carnal flesh fest message.

If you could provide a scripture that states we should repent from sin your argument would have substance...

 

[rexlunae]

toldailytopic: Can God change His mind?

That's not a whole lot different from asking "Can God create a rock so heavy that he can't lift it?" You're just setting one omni- trait against another (or against itself) and prioritizing one over the others arbitrarily.

If God were all-knowing and all-seeing and perfectly wise, why would he ever need to change his mind?

 

[Zeke]

That's a bifurcation (either/or fallacy, or false dilemma fallacy), Zeke. Stick to what I very specifically said and you'll avoid that and other things like Bulverisms (your first response to me). That's always the safest bet in a discussion.

The phrase "change His mind" is really bothersome to you and others. So maybe we're not speaking the same language. So let me ask this question:

Can God say He is going to do something and then choose NOT to do what He said He would do?

Thanks, brother.
Randy

I wouldn't see where it would be a falsh dilemma for a Soverign God, who can keep track of our thoughts Matthew 5:28, and knows the carnel motive John 2:24, Ephesians 2:2-3, of the human heart which is stated to be wicked, and deceitful Jeremiah 17:9.

He can but it would be part of His preplanned Will to do so, just like Jesus telling everyone to repent so the Kingdom could come while at the same time keeping most of them in blindness so it wouldn't, for a hidden intent that couldn't happen if they did repent, nothing is a surprise to God or His preordained plan for His creation.

So no I don't believe God can change His mind from an unexpected senario.

Its seem you think otherwise, the chicken pen is open a crack.

Sorry if I didn't enter the chicken pen correctly in your estimation, hope your feathers are back in place.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Yep, doesn't say 'changed His mind,' does it? In addition, I posted on Open Theism 3 page 2 what the problem was but you've never addressed the matter other than repetition of the above. Go ahead, dig out a concordance. "Repented" is a translation of the word 'to sigh' but we are dealing with the particular mentioned. "Changed His mind" is nowhere in scripture.
[/LEFT]

You deny a lot based on a colloquialism. The context is quite clear that the word is used for someone changing their mind.

Jeremiah 18:7-10 7At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.​

 

[genuineoriginal]

If God were all-knowing and all-seeing and perfectly wise, why would he ever need to change his mind?

Since God does change His mind, there must be a flaw in your conception of how "all-knowing and all-seeing and perfectly wise" actually works.

 

[Ktoyou]

One thing we know, God is all able. I think that is simple enough?

 

[rexlunae]

Since God does change His mind, there must be a flaw in your conception of how "all-knowing and all-seeing and perfectly wise" actually works.

Or, just as likely, in some aspect of your understanding.

 

[andyc]

If you could provide a scripture that states we should repent from sin your argument would have substance...

Post 80.

 

[chickenman]

Hello CM,

Yes, of course let's re-evaluate but please do so for me here too. It is specifically this that has us troubled over Open View propositions so I too welcome the dialogue. Neither of us want those implications sticking in our mind, but it is indeed this that is so troubling. In actuality, you are portraying my thoughts on this as well - that God can propose two (or more) sets of consequences for any given action. I absolutely see a difference between a conditional and unconditional promise as well.

For instance, I'm not double-minded if I say "clean your room, then we'll go out for ice cream." It is fairly clear, regardless that we disagree on what God knows about such beforehand, this is important discussion for what we need to agree on: specifically, that you aren't seeing me as 'repenting' in a fashion that would lead toward a double-mindedness. If my kids do not clean their room yet I take them out for ice cream, I've presented a double-standard: that they don't have to do what I tell them. It may very well be my intention to teach them about grace and mercy in that, but it wouldn't be a 'change of mind' but rather a clear indication of where my mind is at all along on such things.

The more consistent I am as a parent, that is, the more my kids understand my consistencies rather than where I'm unpredictable because of my frequent mind-changes, the better I will effectively relate to my children.

God too is very concerned with His own "Yes" and "No's" in consistency. So much so, in fact, that He instructs very clearly that we don't break promises or oaths, but that we simply say what we mean and mean what we say. It is specifically, God's integrity and trustworthiness that resists the Open View notion here of God randomly and inconsistently giving in to a whim. Rather, we believe His character, even if He doesn't have EDF, is such that we can bank on Him. That a change of mind isn't really what we are talking about, but rather a singular mind on specific issues that we can trust and consistently bank on, no matter what. For that reason specifically, it is most efficient to say rather than 'changing His mind' that God is predictably dependable and consistent against sin and in Grace and Mercy and will never change His mind about these things.

What specifically does the Open Theist desire and/or try to convey when they portray God as 'changing His mind?' What comfort is such intending to give to an individual and how isn't a God who is consistent and predictable (trustworthy) not as much, let alone more of a comfort for the Open Theist?

Thanks Randy.

In Him,

Lon

With respect, Lon, I don't understand the point in making a rebuttal that has nothing to do with the argument you are rebutting. I didn't mention anything about the open view, and certainly not about God giving in to whims (which is a false characterization of the open view, for sure).

I simply am seeking agreement on a clearly stated biblical fact: According to Jeremiah 18, God can say He will do something and then choose not to do that thing. And it's all the extra stuff (assumptions, bulverisms, etc.) that make a simple conversation difficult.

Again with respect, talking about whims (false characterization) or motives (which can only be assumed) doesn't help the conversation.

:e4e:
Randy

 

[chickenman]

I wouldn't see where it would be a falsh dilemma for a Soverign God, who can keep track of our thoughts Matthew 5:28, and knows the carnel motive John 2:24, Ephesians 2:2-3, of the human heart which is stated to be wicked, and deceitful Jeremiah 17:9.

You don't understand what I meant by "false dilemma", Zeke. It's the fallacy of you determining that there can be only two possible choices.

He can but it would be part of His preplanned Will to do so, just like Jesus telling everyone to repent so the Kingdom could come while at the same time keeping most of them in blindness so it wouldn't, for a hidden intent that couldn't happen if they did repent, nothing is a surprise to God or His preordained plan for His creation.

So no I don't believe God can change His mind from an unexpected senario.

Its seem you think otherwise, the chicken pen is open a crack.

Sorry if I didn't enter the chicken pen correctly in your estimation, hope your feathers are back in place.

See my post to Lon a moment ago. A very simple conversation is being made difficult.

Either: 1) God can say He will do something and then choose to not do that something, and Jeremiah 18 is trustworthy; or 2) God cannot say He will do something and then choose to not do that something, and Jeremiah 18 is not trustworthy.

I choose #1. The Why and How...well that's up to you and your studies.

:drbrumleysdad:

Randy

 

[john w]

Luke 13:3 "I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

"And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." Gen 6:6 KJV

Judas, Jr. andy: You will perish, LORD, unless you repent. You too, Judas, my spiritual daddy!

"…… Repentance means to turn from sin... We have to turn from our evil deeds in order to receive salvation.."-Judas, Jr.