toldailytopic: Can God change His mind?

[john w]

Luke 13:3 .....unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

Luke 24:47 "and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 3:19 "Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,

Mark 6:12 So they went out and preached that people should repent.

2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

2 Timothy 2:25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.




Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done................

But Peter said to him, "Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! 21 "You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God. 22 "Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 "For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity."

In order to get around these awkward verses, the hyper dispensationalists invent different gospels for different dispensations, but you never see them mentioned in scripture.

" invent different gospels "-Judas, Jr.

Mt. 10/Luke 9:"he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease....(including-my addition)Judas Iscariot...Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils...power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. ...they departed, and went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing every where(including Judas-my addition)...


Charlatan.

andycain Judas, Jr.: There is only one piece of "good news" in the book. TBN, Daystar, CBN.....taught me that.

Perverter of the gospel of Christ:

"…… Repentance means to turn from sin... We have to turn from our evil deeds in order to receive salvation.."-Judas, Jr.

 

[Zeke]

Can God change His mind?

At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them. Jer. 18:7-10​

It doesn't get much more conclusive than this. So you can go ahead and move onto the next ToD, Knight. :e4e:

Hi Randy I came back here to explain why its a stacked deck. It's up to God whether or not they will, or won't do the evil He is warning against. If you take a carnel man Ephesians 2:2-3, Romans 8:7, and put him in a high position with out Gods protection we both know what will happen, and God being a pretty good student of history knows the math on this one, not to mention foreknowledge.

So the above doesn't prove God changes His mind because he is waiting to see what man will do, He already knows what they will do.

We will have to disagree, :cheers:

 

[Sherman]

James 1:6-8 tells us that having a double-mind is sin/wrong. How could we ever attribute to God a "change of mind" about anything without attributing to Him sinfulness? I have seen answers, but none of them suffice for me. It looks as though one is saying "God is relational enough to 'lie' to us." I'd appreciate any OVer actually able to distance from that assessment, but you'll have to work hard. Everything I've seen up until now sets God up as "double-minded, unstable in all His ways..." How can I even entertain such an idea of God changing His mind when it so readily leads to a logical problem of attributing to God, our sinful understandings?

Let me show you this scripture and tell me what you think of it:

Exodus 32: 7-14 7 And the Lord said to Moses, “Go, get down! For your people whom you brought out of the land of Egypt have corrupted themselves. 8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them. They have made themselves a molded calf, and worshiped it and sacrificed to it, and said, ‘This is your god, O Israel, that brought you out of the land of Egypt!’ ” 9 And the Lord said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10 Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation.” 11 Then Moses pleaded with the Lord his God, and said: “Lord, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, ‘He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and relent from this harm to Your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’ ” 14 So the Lord relented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.

How do you explain these verses in light of 'God can't change His mind'? The truth be told, you can't.

God isn't double minded. He listens to prayer. If He was as you say He is, He would be no more responsive than a lump of lead. We all might as well be praying to a rock or a stick. But God isn't like that. He listens and responds to prayer like He did to Moses' petition not to destroy Israel.

 

[chickenman]

Hi Randy I came back here to explain why its a stacked deck. It's up to God whether or not they will, or won't do the evil He is warning against. If you take a carnel man Ephesians 2:2-3, Romans 8:7, and put him in a high position with out Gods protection we both know what will happen, and God being a pretty good student of history knows the math on this one, not to mention foreknowledge.

So the above doesn't prove God changes His mind because he is waiting to see what man will do, He already knows what they will do.

We will have to disagree, :cheers:

I'm certainly fine with disagreeing, Zeke. Before we conclude, though, I want to be sure I understood you correctly.

You wrote: "It's up to God whether or not they will, or won't do the evil He is warning against."

Do you mean that? Do you believe that God makes people do good or evil? Sorry if I misunderstood. Trying to be sure.

Randy

 

[Zeke]

Let me show you this scripture and tell me what you think of it:

Exodus 32: 7-14 7 And the Lord said to Moses, “Go, get down! For your people whom you brought out of the land of Egypt have corrupted themselves. 8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them. They have made themselves a molded calf, and worshiped it and sacrificed to it, and said, ‘This is your god, O Israel, that brought you out of the land of Egypt!’ ” 9 And the Lord said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10 Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation.” 11 Then Moses pleaded with the Lord his God, and said: “Lord, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, ‘He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and relent from this harm to Your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’ ” 14 So the Lord relented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.

How do you explain these verses in light of 'God can't change His mind'? The truth be told, you can't.

God isn't double minded. He listens to prayer. If He was as you say He is, He would be no more responsive than a lump of lead. We all might as well be praying to a rock or a stick. But God isn't like that. He listens and responds to prayer like He did to Moses' petition not to destroy Israel.

Its a teaching tool nothing else, God used this to show the role of the mediator, God isn't some grumpy forgetful old man of the Mt who needed anger management classes, and ignorant of the carnel nature of these people come on!!.

What are you going to do with these types of contradictions John 5:40, 12:40-Matthew 11:14-15, Luke 8:10?

 

[Zeke]

I'm certainly fine with disagreeing, Zeke. Before we conclude, though, I want to be sure I understood you correctly.

You wrote: "It's up to God whether or not they will, or won't do the evil He is warning against."

Do you mean that? Do you believe that God makes people do good or evil? Sorry if I misunderstood. Trying to be sure.

Randy

God uses evil like a tool, Deut 2:30, Romans 9:18, and certainly knows what the carnel mind of man is already capable of left to its own his natural will, that is influenced by the god of this world Matthew 4:8-9, Ephesians 2:2-3, John 5:42-43.

So its within Gods will that either good or evil take place, and He does use it to fulfill His purpose, while teaching through it at the same time, and turning that evil into a righteous purpose that He preordained.

Grace, Zeke.

 

[chickenman]

God uses evil like a tool, Deut 2:30, Romans 9:18, and certainly knows what the carnel mind of man is already capable of left to its own his natural will, that is influenced by the god of this world Matthew 4:8-9, Ephesians 2:2-3, John 5:42-43.

So its within Gods will that either good or evil take place, and He does use it to fulfill His purpose, while teaching through it at the same time, and turning that evil into a righteous purpose that He preordained.

Grace, Zeke.

Forgive me for being thick, brother. But I want to be clear. You said that it is up to God whether or not they will do evil. So...do you believe God makes people do evil acts?

Thanks for indulging me as I try to understand where you're coming from.

Randy

 

[Zeke]

Forgive me for being thick, brother. But I want to be clear. You said that it is up to God whether or not they will do evil. So...do you believe God makes people do evil acts?

Thanks for indulging me as I try to understand where you're coming from.

Randy

Yea I think God does it by leaving them blinded by their own natural carnel wills in bondage along with the god of this world, and his influence on them Ephesians 2:2-3, in that state they are contrare to Gods will. So God uses that carnel mental state of man for His preordained purpose and also hardens some even more to fulfill that purpose. He could have opened all His covenant peoples eyes if it was within His timing to do so Acts 1:7, but only a remnant was preserved from that generation by Gods Spirit, Isaiah 42:6-7 the rest where left in blindness for the Gentiles sake Romans 11:25.

If mans will is not Gods will then "how could man do the things that would make God repent" without Him interfering with their wills?

If God had opened the eyes of the sons of Jacob they could have received the kingdom, on the surface that seemed like Gods will for them, but it wasn't at that time, His hidden intention was to reconcile the world through Christ by His death, burial, and resurrection, and to do that He hid it, and left them in blindness except for a remnant, even Peter didn't know who Jesus was until God opened his understanding.

So thats my perpective discerned from the absolutes in scripture concerning Gods will. Lots of relative acts, and demands from God on mans carnel will but its all for another purpose than whats on the surface, which is always failure on mans part except for Gods remnant, and Gods preservation of that remnant seed for His hidden will and purpose Romans 11:11,12, and 32-36.

Grace, Zeke.

 

[freelight]

wherever relativity exists, there is the concept of change

wherever relativity exists, there is the concept of change

~*~*~

Infinite Intelligence would logically have within it all potential for change, expansion, modification and experience,...which includes being involved in space-time, engaging creation...that creation having eternal and infinite potenial.

While Deity is unchanging in its essential nature and Being, change ensues within its natural movements as infinite Mind and Spirit relates to other minds in the context of relationships. This is the paradox of the unchanging One and the ever-changing flow of creation or evolutionary movements within God the infinite.

I find the prooftexts in the OT as unconvincing, since they are written by men, from the viewpoint of men, so are naturally referenced within the parameters of how man experiences time or change. Researching the eternal and infinite nature of Spirit is adequate enough, ontologically and metaphysically speaking. Scriptures and other inspired writings support our concepts concerning such, but 'God' is not limited thereby.


pj

 

[Zeke]

~*~*~

Infinite Intelligence would logically have within it all potential for change, expansion, modification and experience,...which includes being involved in space-time, engaging creation...that creation having eternal and infinite potenial.

While Deity is unchanging in its essential nature and Being, change ensues within its natural movements as infinite Mind and Spirit relates to other minds in the context of relationships. This is the paradox of the unchanging One and the ever-changing flow of creation or evolutionary movements within God the infinite.

I find the prooftexts in the OT as unconvincing, since they are written by men, from the viewpoint of men, so are naturally referenced within the parameters of how man experiences time or change. Researching the eternal and infinite nature of Spirit is adequate enough, ontologically and metaphysically speaking. Scriptures and other inspired writings support our concepts concerning such, but 'God' is not limited thereby.


pj

Find your spiritism faulty, lots of fancy words with little or know absolute meaning, no steak to chew on.

Grace, Zeke.

 

[Lon]

You deny a lot based on a colloquialism. The context is quite clear that the word is used for someone changing their mind.

Jeremiah 18:7-10 7At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.​

:doh: repent doesn't mean changed mind.

 

[Lon]

With respect, Lon, I don't understand the point in making a rebuttal that has nothing to do with the argument you are rebutting. I didn't mention anything about the open view, and certainly not about God giving in to whims (which is a false characterization of the open view, for sure).

I simply am seeking agreement on a clearly stated biblical fact: According to Jeremiah 18, God can say He will do something and then choose not to do that thing. And it's all the extra stuff (assumptions, bulverisms, etc.) that make a simple conversation difficult.

Again with respect, talking about whims (false characterization) or motives (which can only be assumed) doesn't help the conversation.

:e4e:
Randy

However, it is exactly these that come to mind when we hear this purported. It matters not if you want to address these or not, it is foremost in our minds and huge enough hurdles that if you don't want to address them, the Open View is going to continue to reveal a series of mental flaws, unaddressed, that we cannot take seriously. We'll simply believe the OV is asserting and somehow missing the pertinent leaving us without a need to do anything more than state that 3 + 3 does not equal 4. It doesn't matter if you don't want to address it or not, especially if there is no work to show how the answer was obtained.

"I want God to be able to change His mind" is no answer.

That said, let's check the math:

Jer 18:7 There are times, Jeremiah, when I threaten to uproot, tear down, and destroy a nation or kingdom.
Jer 18:8 But if that nation I threatened stops doing wrong, I will cancel the destruction I intended to do to it.

How is that a change of mind? I still see change of mind as 'double-minded' in a wishy-washy fashion. God doesn't change to become a better person or a worse person, how could His mind ever change?

Usually, when I 'change my mind' it is due to 'not thinking something through well enough the first time,' that's what I understand a mind-change to be.

"You didn't clean your room so we aren't going to a movie" isn't a change of mind. When they go to their room seeking mercy and clean them, I haven't changed my mind when we are now going to the movie. They met the conditions for what was intended either way: No clean room = no movie / clean room = movie.

Where is the change of mind?

 

[bybee]

However, it is exactly these that come to mind when we hear this purported. It matters not if you want to address these or not, it is foremost in our minds and huge enough hurdles that if you don't want to address them, the Open View is going to continue to reveal a series of mental flaws, unaddressed, that we cannot take seriously. We'll simply believe the OV is asserting and somehow missing the pertinent leaving us without a need to do anything more than state that 3 + 3 does not equal 4. It doesn't matter if you don't want to address it or not, especially if there is no work to show how the answer was obtained.

"I want God to be able to change His mind" is no answer.

Lon, to state that God cannot change His mind is placing a human limitation on the Almighty.
To state that He will not change His mind is presumptuous human qualification of the Almighty.
There are statements in the Bible which state that God, apparently, :think:mused with Himself and decided to change His mind.
I believe that a change in God's mind equals a change in tactics or logistics but not a change in His greater plan.
Respectfully, bybee

 

[sky.]

That's not a whole lot different from asking "Can God create a rock so heavy that he can't lift it?" You're just setting one omni- trait against another (or against itself) and prioritizing one over the others arbitrarily.

If God were all-knowing and all-seeing and perfectly wise, why would he ever need to change his mind?

However, it is exactly these that come to mind when we hear this purported. It matters not if you want to address these or not, it is foremost in our minds and huge enough hurdles that if you don't want to address them, the Open View is going to continue to reveal a series of mental flaws, unaddressed, that we cannot take seriously. We'll simply believe the OV is asserting and somehow missing the pertinent leaving us without a need to do anything more than state that 3 + 3 does not equal 4. It doesn't matter if you don't want to address it or not, especially if there is no work to show how the answer was obtained.

"I want God to be able to change His mind" is no answer.

That said, let's check the math:

How is that a change of mind? I still see change of mind as 'double-minded' in a wishy-washy fashion. God doesn't change to become a better person or a worse person, how could His mind ever change?

Usually, when I 'change my mind' it is due to 'not thinking something through well enough the first time,' that's what I understand a mind-change to be.

"You didn't clean your room so we aren't going to a movie" isn't a change of mind. When they go to their room seeking mercy and clean them, I haven't changed my mind when we are now going to the movie. They met the conditions for what was intended either way: No clean room = no movie / clean room = movie.

Where is the change of mind?

Thank you Lon, Thank you rexlunae.

 

[Lighthouse]

If you could provide a scripture that states we should repent from sin your argument would have substance...

Post 80.

Luke 13:3 .....unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

Luke 24:47 "and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 3:19 "Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,

Mark 6:12 So they went out and preached that people should repent.

2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

2 Timothy 2:25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done................

But Peter said to him, "Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! 21 "You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God. 22 "Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 "For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity."

FAIL!

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

FAIL!

Sigh.

AMR

 

[genuineoriginal]

:doh: repent doesn't mean changed mind.

It does in the context I quoted, no matter how much you deny it.

Usually, when I 'change my mind' it is due to 'not thinking something through well enough the first time,' that's what I understand a mind-change to be.

Then the problem is that you have not thought through 'change my mind' well enough yet.
Try again until you understand why God can change His mind without having the problem of not thinking something through well enough the first time. Hint: It has something to do with men having free will.

 

[Lighthouse]

Sigh.

AMR

Get over yourself.

 

[Lon]

Lon, to state that God cannot change His mind is placing a human limitation on the Almighty.
To state that He will not change His mind is presumptuous human qualification of the Almighty.
There are statements in the Bible which state that God, apparently, :think:mused with Himself and decided to change His mind.
I believe that a change in God's mind equals a change in tactics or logistics but not a change in His greater plan.
Respectfully, bybee

Perhaps it is our alternative definitions. Perhaps it is our father figure in life. I can think of nothing more comforting than God being consistent. A change of mind, as far as my concept of it, is about a father who made a mistake (ala Sanders), hasn't a clue (Boyd), and is learning. A god like this is near process/mormon theology where I haven't a comfort in the world that God means what He says or says what He means. It is the very same reason why Calvinists are lambasted on this site: Because God loses His consistency if He calls good evil, or evil good. Of course, against the Calvinist, it is a strawman, because no Calvinist says that, but doesn't the Open Theist do so here? What was good is now bad, or what is bad is now good? How can God change His mind if everything He plans is always good and right? How could He literally change His mind against His own nature?

 

[Lon]

It does in the context I quoted, no matter how much you deny it.

Then the problem is that you have not thought through 'change my mind' well enough yet.
Try again until you understand why God can change His mind without having the problem of not thinking something through well enough the first time. Hint: It has something to do with men having free will.

So you are building a doctrine in deference and preference to man's free will which Jesus repeatedly told you to deny and take up your cross?

No, changing our mind is wishy-washy. "Wait a minute Joe, I'll ride along with you after all." "I thought you weren't talking to me?" - "I changed my mind." I can't see how making God wishy-washy brings you any kind of comfort at all.