toldailytopic: Are some people born predestined to go to hell?

[Grosnick Marowbe]

You know there's no real need to ask me the same question twice....

That's because I didn't think you'd respond...

 

[2COR12:9]

It says that He has not destined "us" to wrath. This says nothing about "them."

Paul's audience was the saved, though the "us" is a generalization pertaining to humans in any state; as he starts out in verse 8 as an admonishment for believers not to forget this hope and finishes in 10 relating that this salvation is possible to any one based on what Christ has done.​

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Arthur Brain, do you consider yourself a Christian?? You placed "other" under your avatar??

 

[Arthur Brain]

If you're a "born again Christian" I suggest you read Genesis through Revelation word for word...Revelation uses symbolism throughout,
in part...

I already know Revelation uses symbolism throughout, it was kinda my point....literal fire can't affect intangible objects so therefore the 'lake of fire' is allegory as death isn't tangible. Do you have some sort of objection to that?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I already know Revelation uses symbolism throughout, it was kinda my point....literal fire can't affect intangible objects so therefore the 'lake of fire' is allegory as death isn't tangible. Do you have some sort of objection to that?

Yes I do. Because I happen to believe in the "Lake of Fire." I believe
revelation is being "literal" about it!!!!

 

[Arthur Brain]

Arthur Brain, do you consider yourself a Christian?? You placed "other" under your avatar??

GM, I answered you on this very point months ago, both in public and in private. You seemed satisfied enough then so I don't see the need for a retread? I don't hold to some label as though that in itself somehow means something.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Yes I do. Because I happen to believe in the "Lake of Fire." I believe
revelation is being "literal" about it!!!!

In that case please explain how physical fire can affect that which is intangible. I wasn't aware that death was a person or object but rather the cessation of life.

lain:

 

[glorydaz]

In which case the fire is allegorical. Fire consumes tangible objects not intangible 'states' hence the symbolism. So if the fire is allegorical then the 'lake of fire' is also a metaphor wouldn't you say? Revelation is full of such symbolic imagery.

No, I don't see God having a huge lake of fire. And, yes, Revelation is full of symbolic imagery....which changes nothing of the truth it contains.

 

[Arthur Brain]

No, I don't see God having a huge lake of fire. And, yes, Revelation is full of symbolic imagery....which changes nothing of the truth it contains.

No one is saying it doesn't but rather questioning the "truth" of eternal torment as if such is taught.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

In that case please explain how physical fire can affect that which is intangible. I wasn't aware that death was a person or object but rather the cessation of life.

lain:

You're example of a "Lake of fire" is worldly, fleshly. In the Spiritual realm we don't know exactly what that will be like. Revelation speaks
about such an occurrence but we as human beings can only understand
destruction and cessation of life through imperfect human understanding. Perhaps the words God uses helps us to understand because of our finite minds!!

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

GM, I answered you on this very point months ago, both in public and in private. You seemed satisfied enough then so I don't see the need for a retread? I don't hold to some label as though that in itself somehow means something.

I don't remember what you said. You're not the only person I post with.
So, do you consider yourself a Christian!! Or other as you say??

 

[Arthur Brain]

You're example of a "Lake of fire" is worldly, fleshly. In the Spiritual realm we don't know exactly what that will be like. Revelation speaks
about such an occurrence but we as human beings can only understand
destruction and cessation of life through imperfect human understanding. Perhaps the words God uses helps us to understand because of our finite minds!!

Well....no, that would be yours if you hold it to be literal fire as we understand that in the physical world. Ironically you're actually underlining my own point, that it's allegorical if you read back through your own post here. I'm arguing that it's anything but 'worldly' or 'fleshly'....

 

[glorydaz]

Calvinists do not deny the power of the gospel message, and they, more than others, understand the importance of proclaiming the good news of Jesus Christ.

Two reasons:

Faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ is the ONLY means by which souls held in bondage to sin, death, and the devil, can learn and realize their forgiveness from God and thereby be freed to serve righteousness, and . . .

That gospel message proclaimed by the witness of regenerated saints is God's means to CALL His elect to faith in His Son. (Romans 8:28-30)

The Calvinist has no idea who God is calling to faith and service in Christ's righteousness, so the Calvinist indiscriminately preaches the gospel to all he is given opportunity to share the good news, and leaves the application of spiritual truth in the hands of God. For many are called, but few are chosen. (Matthew 22:14)

Many hear the gospel call, but do not believe, because they are bereft of the regenerating Holy Spirit. (Romans 8:9) This is not in man's control, but in God's control, who He will raise to new spiritual life and give ears to hear the gospel call. (Isaiah 6:9-10)

If they are "dead" how can they hear? Isn't that what you say? Why are we called to repent, turn, follow, come, and believe if we aren't able to do so without God's intervention? Those who are already regenerated don't require any of those commands because they have already repented, believed, etc.

Many hear the gospel call and refuse it. They love the darkness more than the light. Why would the Word say they loved their darkness more if there isn't a choice that was given them by the light?

There are multitudes of humanity throughout time, that historically have never heard the promises of God, let alone the name of Jesus Christ, who have perished in their sins, according to the purposes, will and just powers of God.

It is a blessed age we live in now since Christ's incarnation, for the gospel is being spread to all the nations as never before and the grace of God overflows to save souls out of all the races.

This was not so before Christ, when God revealed His covenants and ordinances to only the elect nation of Israel, and a very small number of elect non-Jewish souls.

This is history . . . biblical history . . . that cannot be altered or revised, but must be accepted by faith. Faith in the wisdom, goodness, and purposes of Sovereign God.

Sinful humans cannot rewrite God's mercies by ignoring His justice, just to please and pander to the sensitivities of unbelieving men.

Romans Chapter 9 teaches election and reprobation, plain and simple, and who are you, oh men, who question His ways?
Nang

You're altering Biblical History when you suggest Faith hasn't been around and available to all men from the very beginning.

I don't question God's ways...I do question your doctrine. It's counter to the whole Word of God.

 

[Arthur Brain]

I don't remember what you said. You're not the only person I post with.
So, do you consider yourself a Christian!! Or other as you say??

You just had my answer in the post you quoted and I'm not jumping through hoops each and every time you seem inclined to make some big deal out of it. I don't attach a label to myself as if it actually means something in itself. If you ain't happy with that then up to you. The last I've got to say on the matter.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Well....no, that would be yours if you hold it to be literal fire as we understand that in the physical world. Ironically you're actually underlining my own point, that it's allegorical if you read back through your own post here. I'm arguing that it's anything but 'worldly' or 'fleshly'....

I believe it's a real occurrence that will happen sometime (perhaps after) the Great white throne of Christ!! Either way it appears that some form of annihilation, destruction, cessation of life, etc., will occur!!!

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

You just had my answer in the post you quoted and I'm not jumping through hoops each and every time you seem inclined to make some big deal out of it. I don't attach a label to myself as if it actually means something in itself. If you ain't happy with that then up to you. The last I've got to say on the matter.

The Bible says that we're to always be ready to give an answer for the hope that's in us. So, I suspect you just gave your answer!!!

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Anyone who isn't ready to announce publicly that they're a Christian, more than likely, is not!!!

 

[glorydaz]

The verse says to obtain salvation, so it clearly is applicable to those yet unsaved - by context the "us" would be everyone.

The "US" here is definately speaking of the saved. The wrath of God never falls on the sons of God...only on the unbeliever. Just like in the days of Noah.

1 Thess. 5:8-9
But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

That's all I have to say about that "brain!!"

 

[Arthur Brain]

I believe it's a real occurrence that will happen sometime (perhaps after) the Great white throne of Christ!! Either way it appears that some form of annihilation, destruction, cessation of life, etc., will occur!!!

Then you admit you're not really sure what it is yourself then or what form it will take.