toldailytopic: Are some people born predestined to go to hell?

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Men make decisions according to their own inclinations, yet standing behind each choice made, even rebellious choices, is the decree of God (see Genesis 20:6; Gen. 45:8; Gen. 50:20; Ex. 4:21; 8:15; 9:12; 9:34-10:2, 20, 27; 11:10; 14:8; Ex. 9:16; 1 Kings 10:9; 14:7; Isa. 45:13; Deut. 2:30; Deut. 29:4; Joshua 11:19-20; 1 Sam. 1:5; 1 Sam. 25:39; Ruth 4:13; Isa. 10:5 and forward; Isa. 45:7; Isa. 46:11 [and here]; Isa. 63:17; Ezek. 36:26-27; Judges 11:32; Judges 14:4; Ps. 105:24-25; Ps. 139:16; Prov. 16:1, 4, 9; Prov. 21:1; Ezra 1:1; Luke 22:22; John 3:21; John 12:39-40; John 19:11; Acts 4:27-28; Acts 17:26; Isa. 53:10; Rom. 9:16, 18; Rom. 11:7-8; Rom. 11:25; Php. 2:12-13; 2 Thess 2:11-13; Heb. 13:21; 2 Pet. 2:12; Rev. 17:17).

I believe Scripture clearly teaches that for the sake of the good that God causes to arise from the sinfulness of the actions of men, God decrees said actions. Man, on the other hand, decrees said actions for the sake of the evil that is in them. Despite hating sin as it is in itself, considering all consequences, it may be the will of God that it come to pass. While it may be God's pleasure to order such things, here sin is not willed by God as sin or for the sake of evil, but for the sake of the consequence of the greater good that will come from God's ordering. Now some may now say that God's willing to order things such that evil comes to pass for the sake of the contrary good implies God does not hate evil as evil. Moreover, if this is true, then there is no reason for God to forbid evil as evil, and even punish evil as such.

This does not mean we are at liberty charge God with playing by the morally questionable principle that "the end justifies the means". We need to remember that God has sovereign rights as the Creator that we, the created, do not have. God has rights the creation cannot lay claim to, and within those rights lie God's right to manipulate and use the evil of sin to accomplish His good purposes (Deut. 32:39; Rom. 9:19-21). Thus, as the Scriptures cited above teaches us, God wills righteously what men do wickedly.

Having said this, I am in no position to explain "how" God pulls off the compatibility between being sovereign over all that happens and yet holding man responsible. In fact, I doubt I will ever know this even on the other side of the grave. What I do know is that Scripture clearly teaches nothing happens outside the express will of God and that I have no epistemological nor theological warrant to elevate man over God, as do the Arminians, the Catholics, or the open-theists. What I also know is that for God to pull off what He does as we find from Scripture, the claim by some, especially open theists, that God does not "micro-manage", is without any foundation, for if God's providential control does not extend to the minute actions of men, then God would in fact be incapable of controlling the "big items" credited to Him in Scripture. Indeed, if God providentially controls history, there is the implicit requirement that God has an overriding influence on the many decisions men make every day.

AMR

 

[Lighthouse]

:spam:

Apparently that's all your posts are worth anyway, since you can't answer a simple question.

 

[Vaquero45]

I don't support the open view, whatsoever!

I don't support a strictly Calvinist view or a strictly Arminian view. At my church we aren't interested in drawing such lines as to make either a Calvinist view totally accurate or an Arminian view totally accurate as what the Bible teaches is a little of both.

"We must recognize that while some may be Arminians, others Calvinists,
others deploring the use of such names, none are heretics!"

------------------

As for the open view our church would steer clear of that, period.

So, at your church, everyone is cool as long as nobody takes a stance? No thanks. I have argued this issue to death in the past, I have pored over it. The only views I can give a nod to are open theism, as per me, Knight, Bob Enyart, Clete, and many other TOLers, OR... determinism as per Hilston, which I will say I do not believe the bible supports, but Hilston puts up a good consistent argument at least. I have never seen a compelling calvinist, in the calvinist case it is ALWAYS a slight of hand switch, where you can have your free will cake, and predestination can eat it.

 

[tudorturtl]

If "hell" is the grave then yes, pretty much everyone ends up in it. If it's some place/realm of eternal unbearable suffering then you can *thank* dogma for it. The idea that a loving God would create such a place/condition, life and then determine who would interminably suffer is atrocious. In fact the whole notion of eternal suffering is....

lain:

here is a thought! if man seeks a place "apart" from God,
that is, apart from what is good and holy and righteous, then maybe he is merely accomodating their wishes. lets examine what happened in the garden. Man "chose" death over the life God had given them.
Eve ate because of desire and because she believed a lie. there it is right at the beginning, you can believe what you want, you don't have to believe God!
as to why Adam ate we can only speculate, maybe it was sacrificial.
maybe he felt he couldn't live without her. maybe it was a marriage as was meant to be and he considered them as one flesh,and that her fate was his as well. Maybe this whole thing was a love story right from the beginning. for it was later written no greater Love has man than this, that he would lay down his life for a friend.
or maybe he too,wanted to become "like God, to know good from evil" his motive is not given to us but what we learn from it is this.
If we listen(hear), believe God we do well, if we listen to other voices and give our loved ones also to eat, then Eden is cut off.
psalm 1 blessed is the man who walks not in the councel of the ungodly.......

 

[Vaquero45]

If "hell" is the grave then yes, pretty much everyone ends up in it. If it's some place/realm of eternal unbearable suffering then you can *thank* dogma for it. The idea that a loving God would create such a place/condition, life and then determine who would interminably suffer is atrocious. In fact the whole notion of eternal suffering is....

lain:

I agree along the lines of determinism especially, it is unthinkable that a noble God would put people in eternal suffering simply because it is funny. I will go out on a limb and say I am not convinced the traditional view of hell is correct. I am a big believer in general revelation and I don't see where eternal torture fits into to the system as revealed. I DO get beating Hitler to a pulp daily for a long time as revenge, but a billion years of it being less than a drop in the infinite bucket? It doesn't compute. It doesn't comport to the God described in the Bible.

 

[tudorturtl]

So, at your church, everyone is cool as long as nobody takes a stance? No thanks. I have argued this issue to death in the past, I have pored over it. The only views I can give a nod to are open theism, as per me, Knight, Bob Enyart, Clete, and many other TOLers, OR... determinism as per Hilston, which I will say I do not believe the bible supports, but Hilston puts up a good consistent argument at least. I have never seen a compelling calvinist, in the calvinist case it is ALWAYS a slight of hand switch, where you can have your free will cake, and predestination can eat it.

One should really not spend much time dwellin upon what Calvin said, or what the Pope said, or what Luther said.
One should really concern himself with what God said!
men have said good things, and there are men who we trust, but no man is God! If I read the bible with a predetermination of what it says then maybe I am "predestined" to fail because my hearing has been altered. a little leaven leavens the whole lump.
Jesus said we must become as a little child.... this is my approach.
That God himself wrote the bible and that it is the only pure source of truth. One should not just sprinkle himself with the word of God but become immersed in it. swim to the depths of it. for Jesus (who spoke not his own words but those of the father who sent him) said
man shall not live by bread alone but by EVERY word that proceeds from the mouth of GOD. You can know what is counterfiet by thouroughly handling what is Genuine.

 

[Town Heretic]

I agree along the lines of determinism especially, it is unthinkable that a noble God would put people in eternal suffering simply because it is funny. I will go out on a limb and say I am not convinced the traditional view of hell is correct. I am a big believer in general revelation and I don't see where eternal torture fits into to the system as revealed. I DO get beating Hitler to a pulp daily for a long time as revenge, but a billion years of it being less than a drop in the infinite bucket? It doesn't compute. It doesn't comport to the God described in the Bible.

I agree after a fashion, in that I don't see hell so much as punishment as I do an inevitable perfection of a will set contrary to the good. That is, I believe hell is a separation from both the good and the influence of the good. And a being so cut off wouldn't suffer, it would be suffering, void of the desire to be otherwise, just as I believe those who desire to be filled with the good will find their will perfected in that service.

 

[Lighthouse]

I've never seen the words "punishment" or "torture" used regarding Hell, or the Lake of Fire, in the Bible.

 

[2COR12:9]

I've never seen the words "punishment" or "torture" used regarding Hell, or the Lake of Fire, in the Bible.

Revelation 14:10 and Revelation 20:10 uses tormented from basanizó which means to torture.​

 

[tudorturtl]

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No!!! This idea flies in the face of Jesus,and throws the whole idea of redemption out the window. Are there some who will not seek redemption? Yes! Does God know who they are? I think so.
Rev_1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
I exist the first and the finality seems present tense to me.
Is he the controller of everything except time?
how did he make the sun to stand in its place for an entire day for Israel ? Can God promise what he doesn't know?
how can he promise eternity,unless he is already there?
In a sense there is a predestination because he already knows, but the choice is ours to believe, and we know not who, so it behooves us to share the good news of redemption with our fellows, lest some not make it due to my unbelief,and their blood be upon my hands.
To see a loved one apart from God because I would not preach the gospel to them,
wouldn't that knowledge, in itself be torture to me? for eternity?

 

[tudorturtl]

I agree after a fashion, in that I don't see hell so much as punishment as I do an inevitable perfection of a will set contrary to the good. That is, I believe hell is a separation from both the good and the influence of the good. And a being so cut off wouldn't suffer, it would be suffering, void of the desire to be otherwise, just as I believe those who desire to be filled with the good will find their will perfected in that service.

Yet we have the Parrable of the rich man and lazarus, where the rich man, in his lifetime, would not help the poor beggar lazarus who was just outside his door. Now he was "parched" and could not get relief. because when it was whithin his power to relieve others suffering he would not! He created the chasm which was too great to cross.

Mat_25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

 

[bybee]

here is a thought! if man seeks a place "apart" from God,
that is, apart from what is good and holy and righteous, then maybe he is merely accomodating their wishes. lets examine what happened in the garden. Man "chose" death over the life God had given them.
Eve ate because of desire and because she believed a lie. there it is right at the beginning, you can believe what you want, you don't have to believe God!
as to why Adam ate we can only speculate, maybe it was sacrificial.
maybe he felt he couldn't live without her. maybe it was a marriage as was meant to be and he considered them as one flesh,and that her fate was his as well. Maybe this whole thing was a love story right from the beginning. for it was later written no greater Love has man than this, that he would lay down his life for a friend.
or maybe he too,wanted to become "like God, to know good from evil" his motive is not given to us but what we learn from it is this.
If we listen(hear), believe God we do well, if we listen to other voices and give our loved ones also to eat, then Eden is cut off.
psalm 1 blessed is the man who walks not in the councel of the ungodly.......

I cannot help but wonder if a corollary might have been "Blessed would man be if Adam had done his job"?
But, did Adam know he had a job? In the garden, were not Adam and Eve equal in the eyes of God?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

One should really not spend much time dwellin upon what Calvin said, or what the Pope said, or what Luther said.
One should really concern himself with what God said!
men have said good things, and there are men who we trust, but no man is God! If I read the bible with a predetermination of what it says then maybe I am "predestined" to fail because my hearing has been altered. a little leaven leavens the whole lump.
Jesus said we must become as a little child.... this is my approach.
That God himself wrote the bible and that it is the only pure source of truth. One should not just sprinkle himself with the word of God but become immersed in it. swim to the depths of it. for Jesus (who spoke not his own words but those of the father who sent him) said
man shall not live by bread alone but by EVERY word that proceeds from the mouth of GOD. You can know what is counterfiet by thouroughly handling what is Genuine.

Very good post!!

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

No!!! This idea flies in the face of Jesus,and throws the whole idea of redemption out the window. Are there some who will not seek redemption? Yes! Does God know who they are? I think so.
Rev_1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
I exist the first and the finality seems present tense to me.
Is he the controller of everything except time?
how did he make the sun to stand in its place for an entire day for Israel ? Can God promise what he doesn't know?
how can he promise eternity,unless he is already there?
In a sense there is a predestination because he already knows, but the choice is ours to believe, and we know not who, so it behooves us to share the good news of redemption with our fellows, lest some not make it due to my unbelief,and their blood be upon my hands.
To see a loved one apart from God because I would not preach the gospel to them,
wouldn't that knowledge, in itself be torture to me? for eternity?

Another excellent post my friend!!

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Lighthouse! To call someone a "fool" just because they disagree with your way of
looking at things, is unnecessary, and uncalled for...

 

[All12Cylinders]

Lighthouse! To call someone a "fool" just because they disagree with your way of
looking at things, is unnecessary, and uncalled for...

This is a good point, we should be charitable in our disagreement with others but, have you forgotten your early posts on this forum - just sayin!

I admit I've succumbed to name calling out of frustration but this is the first site I was ever called names on, you were one of the first to do it, you weren't averaging 600 posts a day for nothing, sorry for the slight exaggeration - 599

 

[SilenceInMotion]

I've never seen the words "punishment" or "torture" used regarding Hell, or the Lake of Fire, in the Bible.

Limbo- For those who die in original sin, but have no mortal sin on their slate. This place if for the humanitarian non-Christian and the like.

Purgatory- You happen to be Catholic, and you happen to have a load of venial sins which you never made mention of to your priest. This is where you pay for them, and is temporary.

Hell- Place of permanent damnation.

These places are an exaction of sin. What do you make of them- five star resorts?

 

[Town Heretic]

Yet we have the Parrable of the rich man and lazarus, where the rich man, in his lifetime, would not help the poor beggar lazarus who was just outside his door. Now he was "parched" and could not get relief. because when it was whithin his power to relieve others suffering he would not! He created the chasm which was too great to cross.

I think you answer yourself at the beginning. You have a parable. You don't have a historical narrative.

Mat_25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Also not in conflict unless you read it literally, which would be problematic for the good.

 

[Traditio]

I think you've just rebutted yourself. :think: This most be the happiest day of your life.

As I said, these "serious" philosophers include people like Hegel. Are you familiar with Hegel? :idunno:

You know what else they have in common? They're dead. And time, it seems likely, isn't the thing they envisioned at all if you're paying attention to modern physics.

When it comes to time, philosophy must inform physics, not the other way around.

Or, time is measured in its impact but shouldn't be mistaken for the thing impacted. A diamond is not less involved in time than a tissue, for all its comparative mutability and mark.

Both a diamond and a tissue are involved in time; both are admixtures of act and potency.

In any case, what Plato says (and what the Neoplatonists love to repeat) in the Timaeus about time is worthy of consideration: He says that time is a moving image of eternity.

Permits? Is it your part that the man permitted another course could, instead, do as the man compelled or drawn? A simple yes or no resolves my curiosity on the point.

I'm not entirely sure I understand the question. Are you asking if one the reprobate instead could have amended his life and been one of the elect? Against the Calvinists, my answer is a clear "yes." In fact, I believe it is St. Alphonsus Ligouri who said that one of the greatest torments of those in hell is this: they will know just how easily they might have been saved.

"He who prays is certain to be saved; while he who prays not is certain to be damned. All the saints were saved, and came to be saints by praying; all the accursed souls in hell were lost through neglect of prayer; if they had prayed, it is certain that they would not have been lost. And this will be one of the greatest occasions of their anguish in hell, the thought that they might have saved themselves so easily; that they had only to beg God to help them, but that now the time is past when this could avail them" (Alphonsus Ligouri).

But I think what you are getting at is this: does the grace of God "overwhelm" the will? Isn't free cooperation required? And for me, this is a really vexed question:

On the one hand, it must be admitted that we must freely cooperate with the grace of God, or else, we must freely reject it.

On the other hand, I see that the free act whereby we cooperate with grace is itself a good, and all good comes from God. Therefore, even this free act whereby I cooperate and assent to grace: that free act itself is from God.

In any case, if there's anything practical to be gotten from this point, it's this: the creature is utterly dependent upon the creator. All good things come from God, and there is no good which is beyond the grasp of God. He can freely grant us everything we ask for, if only we are asking for good things which are good for us.

Every good comes from God. Every virtue, every good act of the will, every time we resist temptation, every prayer well said: all of those come from God.

And they are all within our reach, if only we ask God to grant them. Practically: what must be internalized and understood is the necessity of perservering in ardent prayer, in asking God to grant us contrition for our sins and a firm purpose of amendment, and in asking God to show us the truth.

Especially, above all, we must pray the rosary (or at least 5 decades) every day. Because that is ultimately what makes the difference between reprobation and election. Simply perservering in asking God, through the intercession of the Holy Mother of God, to save us from reprobation and granting us the grace to become one of the elect:

"If you say the Rosary faithfully until death, I do assure you that, in spite of the gravity of your sins, 'you shall receive a never-fading crown of glory' (1 Pet 5:4). Even if you are on the brink of damnation, even if you have one foot in Hell, even if you have sold your soul to the devil as sorcerers do who practice black magic, and even if you are a heretic as obstinate as a devil, sooner or later you will be converted and will amend your life and save your soul, if - and mark well what I say - if you say the Rosary devoutly every day until death for the purpose of knowing the truth and obtaining contrition and pardon for your sins" (St. Louis Marie de Montfort, Secret of the Rosary, a Red Rose for Sinners).

 

[Town Heretic]

As I said, these "serious" philosophers include people like Hegel. Are you familiar with Hegel? :idunno:

Sure.

When it comes to time, philosophy must inform physics, not the other way around.

You probably feel the same way about microbiology, but... :nono:

Both a diamond and a tissue are involved in time; both are admixtures of act and potency.

You missed the point. I said they're not comparatively more or less for the difference in time's affect.

In any case, what Plato says (and what the Neoplatonists love to repeat) in the Timaeus about time is worthy of consideration: He says that time is a moving image of eternity.

It's lovely, poetic and interesting.

I'm not entirely sure I understand the question.

I think you're ducking me twice Trad. There's nothing complicated in my question.

You said God permits some, that is he doesn't interfere. Can those he permits still move to him, make any choice that doesn't lead to ruin. Because if they cannot then God might as well toss them actively into hell for all he difference.

But I think what you are getting at is this: does the grace of God "overwhelm" the will? Isn't free cooperation required?

Would seem to be a necessity if you don't want to reduce man to automaton.

And for me, this is a really vexed question:

On the one hand, it must be admitted that we must freely cooperate with the grace of God, or else, we must freely reject it.

On the other hand, I see that the free act whereby we cooperate with grace is itself a good, and all good comes from God. Therefore, even this free act whereby I cooperate and assent to grace: that free act itself is from God.

I don't know why it isn't simply a matter of God giving men both the ability to choose and an understanding of the good.

In any case, if there's anything practical to be gotten from this point, it's this: the creature is utterly dependent upon the creator. All good things come from God, and there is no good which is beyond the grasp of God. He can freely grant us everything we ask for, if only we are asking for good things which are good for us.

I'd agree.

Every good comes from God. Every virtue, every good act of the will, every time we resist temptation, every prayer well said: all of those come from God.

I'd say the ability to resist a thing comes from an understanding of the good.

And they are all within our reach, if only we ask God to grant them. Practically: what must be internalized and understood is the necessity of perservering in ardent prayer, in asking God to grant us contrition for our sins and a firm purpose of amendment, and in asking God to show us the truth.

I believe in an ongoing and continuous communication with God and a willingness to examine our actions and thoughts by that.

Especially, above all, we must pray the rosary (or at least 5 decades) every day.

If that helps you I count it a good. Else, no but God bless you.