toldailytopic: Are some people born predestined to go to hell?

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I agree. It attacks the very character of our Creator.

Amen!!

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Calvinism doesn't actually posit that at all. Calvin was a deep thinker in philosophy and theology. You are interpreting predestination with a rather shallow perception.

My conversion to the Church was due to a mighty shift in my perception. I fear that Protestants are torn with these things because they have no guiding light and instead go on their own basal reasoning. Mind the Scripture which implies that we are idiots in relevance to God. That is why you should join the Church which has the Spirit.

Deep thinkers can be wrong to!!

 

[glorydaz]

I'm saying those that are chosen will seek and believe, those that are not, won't.

The fate of all of humanity is the same except for the mercy of God. He will have mercy on whom he has mercy. It may not seem fair, but mercy isn't fair. But we don't fully know the extent of God's mercy and we don't really know that "hell" is a place of eternal punishment rather than annihilation either.

Where does the Cross fit in?

The Grace of God is accessed by FAITH in Jesus Christ. The "missing link," if you will, in your "theory" of election.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Where does the Cross fit in?

The Grace of God is accessed by FAITH in Jesus Christ. The "missing link," if you will, in your "theory" of election.

Amen!! Calvinists have a huge "blind side" when it comes to the truth of God's Grace towards mankind!!

 

[SilenceInMotion]

Deep thinkers can be wrong to!!

Well, obviously. We are talking about a founder of Protestantism after all :chuckle:

*FACE*

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Right. Hell is a state of mind, whether here on Earth or hereafter.

Not well thought out...Just more "new age" non-sense mixed with simplicity!!!

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Well, obviously. We are talking about a founder of Protestantism after all :chuckle:

*FACE*

Not necessarily one of the better participants!!

 

[Traditio]

Arguable.

It's really not. Sure, there are some "serious" philosophers who have posited that God is in time/temporal...but really? In the tradition? Both Aristotle and Plato are agreed that the first principle(s) are beyond change and becoming. Plotinus and Proclus are certainly in agreement that God is "above" time.

A pretty straightforward proof:

Time is, roughly speaking, the measure of change and becoming.

Whatever is in time therefore is an admixture of act (what it is) and potency (what it can be).

God is pure act (since He is Supremely Perfect) without even the slightest admixture of potency (since He lacks no perfection).

Therefore, God cannot possibly be in time.

The "serious" philosophers who have asserted that God is in time include people like Hegel.

A little pointless if a thing isn't, unless you mean it remains possible and then you have a problem or two.

I say this because God's power and knowledge extend to an infinite number of objects. God created this world, but there's an infinite number of possible worlds that God could have created, but chose not to. :idunno:

Without getting into an argument of time at odds with every camp, you have a problem. If God can and does will some to election and heaven then unless you hold that some who are not so willed nevertheless arrive God would have damned by omission, understanding that without His direct action that better end would remain closed to man. And you're right back at your problem with the good.

St. Augustine's proof text is Romans 9:11-25.

The problem is as follows:

1. You can't assert that God wills the reprobation of any man. God cannot do this, since He is Supremely Good.

2. You can't assert that our good deeds and our acts of faith, etc. are entirely our own, separate from the grace of God. On the contrary: God is the Supreme Good and the cause of all good things.

If any man does good things, or if any man is saved, it is solely by the grace of God. The Protestants will try and assert that Catholics preach a "works-based" doctrine of salvation. But this isn't true at all. It's grace, and only grace, which can empower anyone to live out the Catholic Faith.

If you find youself stricken with remorse for your sins and you make a good confession, it is the grace of God that has drawn you.

If you find yourself on your knees praying the Rosary, it is God who has called you to do it.

Thus, we say that He elects the elect, but He does not will the reprobation of any man.

We must say that God permits the reprobation of some, but this isn't by His direct willing. He merely chooses not to extend additional graces. And this is entirely just. :idunno:

 

[Vaquero45]

Oh noes He figured it out! (The Calvinist part)

I don't normally bother posting about it, because I don't consider it a salvation issue. I think Calvinism is fairly obvious from scripture but some people feel the need to believe things like open theism to keep believing.

I believe these alternative theologies ultimately come down to the highly unusual and very individualist culture, really unknown in the history of the world up until this point.

When did the Bible start influencing your opinion?

And for you of all people to appeal to historic beliefs is quite humorous.

 

[glorydaz]

I never read an epistle which said "Thanks be to God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who has granted us free will whereby we have made a decision to accept His Son"

laffable

I never read any where God said "behold I give unto you freewill"

Adam could choose to obey and live [that's God's will not man's] or he could disobey and die [that's God's will not man's]
But Adam having DISobeyed has sold the whole of mankind and creation with him into BONDAGE.

So speak all the epistles. The only freedom there is is in Christ.

Too many is's there

And the children of Israel were told to obey and live or disobey and die.

Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Man, therefore, must choose. As it has been from the beginning...it still is today. Man must choose Life or Death.

 

[glorydaz]

*
Freewill cannot exist alongside bondage, if you are bound you are not free.

Two things as sure as eggs, man is bound to sin and he is bound to die.

Jesus came to set man free.

All men are in bondage to sin when they are shown the light. That doesn't mean we aren't free to turn to the Light...in fact, that is the point of preaching the Gospel. The Power of God unto Salvation is greater than he who keeps us in darkness.

 

[glorydaz]

But the bible says you were chosen in Him before all worlds began.

Moreover Christ said "you have not chosen Me but I have chosen you"

"No man may come to Me unless the Father draw him"

Why these glorious and precious truths offend people is a mystery to me, they are full of assurance and comfort.

I'll tell you why they upset you, YOU have fallen into the same mistake as Calvin. YOU also suppose that because the bible says "whom God foreknew He also predestined" therefore means He must have predestined all others to damnation.

You are making the very same mistake, so don't blame Calvin for making a boo boo when YOU are making the same boo boo.

"Who are born again not of the flesh or the will of the flesh but by the will of God" but you insist it was your will.

Who is the YOU Paul is speaking of if not those who are IN CHRIST?

It's our position IN HIM...as opposed to those in the nation of Israel. It's the church which is the peculiar people...a chosen nation. And, we can't determine to be born again. That is a work of the Holy Spirit when He sees FAITH in Jesus Christ.

It is the "will of God" that those who are persuaded by the Gospel of Christ and are IN HIM will be adopted children and conformed into His image. The Church of believers are those who reside IN HIM through FAITH.



John 1:12-13
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[Town Heretic]

I wrote: arguable.

It's really not.

I win. lain:

Sure, there are some "serious" philosophers who have posited that God is in time/temporal...but really?

I think you've just rebutted yourself. :think: This most be the happiest day of your life.

In the tradition? Both Aristotle and Plato are agreed that the first principle(s) are beyond change and becoming. Plotinus and Proclus are certainly in agreement that God is "above" time.

You know what else they have in common? They're dead. And time, it seems likely, isn't the thing they envisioned at all if you're paying attention to modern physics.

A pretty straightforward proof:

Time is, roughly speaking, the measure of change and becoming.

Or, time is measured in its impact but shouldn't be mistaken for the thing impacted. A diamond is not less involved in time than a tissue, for all its comparative mutability and mark.

And anyway that's not how mathematicians think of time. :nono:

...The "serious" philosophers who have asserted that God is in time include people like Hegel.

What did the whimsical ones hold and for how long? oly:

...He elects the elect, but He does not will the reprobation of any man. We must say that God permits the reprobation of some, but this isn't by His direct willing.

Permits? Is it your part that the man permitted another course could, instead, do as the man compelled or drawn? A simple yes or no resolves my curiosity on the point.

He merely chooses not to extend additional graces. And this is entirely just. :idunno:

That depends on your answer to my last. :e4e:

 

[glorydaz]

The Divine action is He first sets us free to be able to choose.

"Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free."

Knowing the Truth comes before being set free. That's what the Gospel is all about. We are set free from the bondage of the Law and it's condemnation only after we choose Him.

Romans 10:14
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

 

[Alate_One]

When did the Bible start influencing your opinion?

Always has. I sometimes wonder what Bible some of the rest of you read.

And for you of all people to appeal to historic beliefs is quite humorous.

A non-literal Genesis is also historic, although not generally mainstream until just before Darwin. Though you misinterpreted what I said.

The recent social changes are an explanation for said doctrines, that in and of itself does not make them wrong, plenty of other things do that.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Yes, because we are so lost, we cannot seek God unless he gives us that ability. Scripture even talks about hardening of hearts. C.S. Lewis talks about being a reluctant convert, that God was actively seeking him. Are the chosen better? Absolutely not. All of us are dependent on God.

As the example I originally gave, Jacob and Esau. Esau was clearly the better of the two, but God chose Jacob.

Then why not all? It seems strange to me that God wills all to be safe and come to a knowledge of the truth, yet deliberately withholds the capability from some who are in worse shape than anyone else. On a related note, do you believe that when the bible refers to "all" & "the world" it's hyperbole? In another post you think it's fairly obvious that Calvinism is what's taught in the bible. There's a plethora of verses that are directly at odds with it, one such being 1 Tim 4:10

I think the Arminian position tends to lend itself more to thinking you're better than someone else, because YOU made the choice therefore there must be something special about you vs. everyone else.

That certainly does happen yes, not in the main I'd say but then again I don't hold with the Arminian position anyway.

There's plenty of evidence of that on this site. Certainly not everyone of that position is like that, but there's clearly a difference between many of the Christians here and the Calvinists I grew up with.

I think most aren't to be fair.

Only God knows who is chosen and who isn't. I would hope my life is evidence of that. I trust in the mercy of God.

Addressed above.

Many of the great hymns are based on Calvinism:

Amazing Grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me. I once was lost but now am found was blind but now I see.

Can't say I've ever associated that hymn with any "ism" to be honest...

 

[Arthur Brain]

Those who do not accept the Salvation of God will die a "second death." When the earth is harvested, the wheat will be gathered into the barn and the chaff will be burned up.

Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The 'second death' doesn't equate to eternal torment unless you interpret it to be such. You're quoting from the most figurative book in the entire bible. For example, how can death be 'cast' anywhere or affected in any way by literal fire? It can't. It's simply the absence of life, and interestingly enough one of the last 'enemies' to be destroyed.

 

[All12Cylinders]

All men are in bondage to sin when they are shown the light. That doesn't mean we aren't free to turn to the Light...in fact, that is the point of preaching the Gospel. The Power of God unto Salvation is greater than he who keeps us in darkness.

Only an Arminian scholar could make such a backward statement like this. I encourage you to revisit what bondage to sin entails, and the outcome it has on the unregenerate mind and will of the man outside of a relationship with Christ - this time from the Bible.

Now, if you come away still believing a one legged horse can run a race, there's not much hope for you.

 

[glorydaz]

Calvinism doesn't actually posit that at all. Calvin was a deep thinker in philosophy and theology. You are interpreting predestination with a rather shallow perception.

My conversion to the Church was due to a mighty shift in my perception. I fear that Protestants are torn with these things because they have no guiding light and instead go on their own basal reasoning. Mind the Scripture which implies that we are idiots in relevance to God. That is why you should join the Church which has the guiding hand of the Spirit when it comes to doctrine.

The Apostles had the guiding hand of the Spirit, and it's their doctrine we stedfastly continue in.

Acts 2:42
And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Ephesians 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

In addition to the inspired Word of God, we have the Comforter...we don't need to "join the Church," we ARE THE CHURCH.

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

The Apostles had the guiding hand of the Spirit, and it's their doctrine we stedfastly continue in.

Acts 2:42
And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Ephesians 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

In addition to the inspired Word of God, we have the Comforter...we don't need to "join the Church," we ARE THE CHURCH.

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Yeah., Peter started the Church. What you see today is the visible succession since then.
That is why I implore non-Catholics to become Catholic- Jesus gave the Keys to Peter.