toldailytopic: Are some people born predestined to go to hell?

[Alate_One]

So only the 'chosen' would be capable of seeking while the rest are suppressed with no chance of what they'd need to avoid any sort of hell? Are the 'chosen' somehow better than the person next door?

Yes, because we are so lost, we cannot seek God unless he gives us that ability. Scripture even talks about hardening of hearts. C.S. Lewis talks about being a reluctant convert, that God was actively seeking him. Are the chosen better? Absolutely not. All of us are dependent on God.

As the example I originally gave, Jacob and Esau. Esau was clearly the better of the two, but God chose Jacob.

I think the Arminian position tends to lend itself more to thinking you're better than someone else, because YOU made the choice therefore there must be something special about you vs. everyone else.

There's plenty of evidence of that on this site. Certainly not everyone of that position is like that, but there's clearly a difference between many of the Christians here and the Calvinists I grew up with.

Do you consider yourself part of the 'chosen' then? Pretty easy to talk about mercy and fairness when you're on the positive side of it if so....

lain:

Only God knows who is chosen and who isn't. I would hope my life is evidence of that. I trust in the mercy of God.

Many of the great hymns are based on Calvinism:

Amazing Grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me. I once was lost but now am found was blind but now I see.

 

[Alate_One]

Believe what you will, and let the rest of us believe what we will. That way we'll have some sort of harmony. By the way, free-will isn't just
a belief that started a couple of weeks ago as you would have others to believe. It's referenced in Scripture several, several times. Not under the words "freewill" but in the context relating to our relationship with God....

In my opinion, there is still choice involved but no one can make that choice apart from God. Like many things in scripture there is a duality and people tend to pick one side or the other and then fight over it, which many times is needless division. I think Calvinism is a lot closer to right than any of the other positions, but it may not be 100% right as traditionally defined either.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

Again! Calvinism is only a set of "interpretations" of Scripture. If you will; a, "pseudo-hypothesis!" There are those that, by into it and those who do not!! We'll have to agree to disagree won't we??

Well if you say that Calvinism is a 'pseudo-hypothesis', you have to say Arminianism is as well. They are offshoots of Catholic doctrine on complete opposite ends.

 

[kmoney]

By whose standards? :think:

Love's standards? :idunno:

If you believe God is love I don't believe you can reconcile that with Calvinism. Calvinism seems to put sovereignty above love.

I do not buy the dispensational view of Romans 9:

I believe that there are some scriptures that are very hard to not read in a Calvinistic way. Romans 9 is one of them. I don't pretend to have an invulnerable interpretation that avoids it. I think some of the more covenantal ways of reading it have some good points though.

 

[kmoney]

I think Calvinism is fairly obvious from scripture

Funny. I feel the same way about Calvinism being false. :chuckle:

 

[Alate_One]

Funny. I feel the same way about Calvinism being false. :chuckle:

I feel that way about Open Theism being false.

 

[Vaquero45]

That was a completely out of line response.

Lighthouse is asking you an honest question. You typically mock the open view yet on this thread you are clearly supporting it. :idunno:

What gives?

Sky should answer the question, or admit he doesn't understand what he mocks.

 

[kmoney]

In addition... and thinking out loud here:

If you, as a child, are loved fiercely by your Father, and He defends you and cares for you against all enemies--would you say that He is cruel to those who wish you harm?

No.

And, if He places you in the midst of wolves and fools to display His love and make it undeniable, do you hate Him for it?

Is that what you think God did?

As a child you only know His love through the great care He has taken for you. You may say, "thank you Father for your grace, though I do not deserve it. Though I do not fully comprehend your ways, I know that you alone are good, and that no one is righteous and all deserve destruction--even me. And yet, you give your mercy to me and call me your child and prove it time and again by your rod and your staff. I pray your grace will extend to others."

You may also say, "I reject you and you are not my father, because you have rejected those who hate you, either through their will or your sovereignty. I will join them, and we will oppose you because I see that you are unjust. I seek their fickle love because I have judge your unfailing love biased. I will usurp your position to justify those who hate you because I find you unworthy."

One way of looking at it...

I think that part I put in bold is a pretty big distinction. One that shouldn't be glossed over. There is a big difference between letting those who choose to reject God go to hell and sending to hell those who God didn't choose to regenerate and they had no way of their own to escape total depravity and love God.

:e4e:

 

[Cracked]

Love's standards? :idunno:

If you believe God is love I don't believe you can reconcile that with Calvinism. Calvinism seems to put sovereignty above love.


I believe that there are some scriptures that are very hard to not read in a Calvinistic way. Romans 9 is one of them. I don't pretend to have an invulnerable interpretation that avoids it. I think some of the more covenantal ways of reading it have some good points though.

Yes, I would agree that Calvinism tends to place sovereignty above love. However, I don't think we can avoid the idea of predestination in scripture, and you seem to agree with this. So, how do we understand it? Perhaps, if we are honest, we must accept a bit of mystery and paradox.

 

[Cracked]

No.

This is very important. If God is a Father who loves and protects His children, then the enemies of His children will necessarily suffer His wrath.

Is that what you think God did?

I think that this is an aspect of Romans 9, for example:
"What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?"

I think that part I put in bold is a pretty big distinction. One that shouldn't be glossed over. There is a big difference between letting those who choose to reject God go to hell and sending to hell those who God didn't choose to regenerate and they had no way of their own to escape total depravity and love God.

:e4e:

You maybe assuming that we can love God on our own, or would chose Him if left to our own devices--I don't think that is true. Arminianism holds that God calls everyone, and that only some respond (and He knows who will)--thus they are the elect. Yet, we forced to contend with the idea that God has not called some. However, I would think that those whom He has hardened were few and for a specific purpose. Not all those who reject God do so outside of His mercy--but by their own freewill.

 

[glorydaz]

How anyone with the remotest ounce of love and compassion within their being can go along with an eternity of torment is utterly mind boggling. If anything smacks of the darkest realms of the human psyche it's the doctrine of "hell" as regards the above...

Those who do not accept the Salvation of God will die a "second death." When the earth is harvested, the wheat will be gathered into the barn and the chaff will be burned up.

Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[lifeisgood]

The Body of Christ was predetermined... corporately. Not individually.

I believe that what was predestined was the Plan of Salvation. The individual then accepting the Plan of Salvation becomes 'predestined' becoming part of God's Plan.

If people were either predetermined to go to heaven or go to hell prior to their birth there would be no point in the gospel, no point in God's word at all. Those that would be saved... would be saved. Those that are destined to hell would be destined to hell. No sense in preaching the gospel or being compelled to follow God based on His deeds, word, and love.

I agree!

The Bible paints a much different picture. A picture about men having the ability to choose to be with Him or not.

Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

John 5:40 “But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

I also believe that God did everything He could do so that not one human being has to go to Hell. However, people choose to not accept Jesus Christ and what He did at the Cross in their place — the Cross being the only thing between lost human beings and Hell. Rejecting that is the reason why people will end up in Hell and will not be able to accuse God of anything. God tells us how NOT to go to Hell -- accept what my Son did at the Cross.

I liked this quote:
The Bible says that God prepared Hell for the devil and his demonic cohorts (Matthew 25:41), that God is "...not wishing for any [person] to perish but for all to come to repentance." (II Peter 3:9), and that God has done everything possible to save us from that terrible, terrible place. Yet in the end God will not violate or overrule the deliberate choice of those who consciously and willfully turn away from Him. —Daryl E. Witmer of AIIA Institute

 

[glorydaz]

I don't go in for labels as I've told you previous GM. But if you're that interested then I would have counted as such some years ago in the then church I was a part of, prayers, repentance and all. I left it after some of the most repugnant and contemptible attitudes towards other people I'd known and else besides in regards to the topic at hand.

That's a sad commentary on the churches, and you aren't alone. There is no life in organized religion, but there is life in individual believers. They are scattered about amongst the tares so you have to seek them out.

While the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom...to bring us to Christ, the Love of God for man is shown clearly in the Bible. Those who don't know God, read it and preach it without understanding.

 

[Robert Pate]

Predestinationism is a direct attack upon the character and nature of God.

The God of predestination is a mean, ruthless, unloving, uncaring, tyrant that delights in sending souls to hell.

This is NOT the God of the Bible, this is the God of Calvinism.

It is not possible to have faith in this kind of a God. How can one possibly have faith in a God that would predestinate people to hell? I will answer that for you, you can't, it just is not possible to trust and rely upon a God that is unjust, unmerciful, and is a tyrant.

You might be better off to be an atheist than to blasphemy God and his Son Jesus Christ with all of those false beliefs. Atleast an atheist usually just says he doesn't believe.

But to say that God sends people to hell for no reason other than they were not predestinated to be saved is blasphemy.

 

[glorydaz]

Um, have YOU read it with an open mind to see what the text is actually saying? Indeed part of the context is Israel in general but there's a specific discussion of Jacob vs. Esau as an example of *gasp* election.

11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, 12 it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

Esau was, by any objective measure of the culture at the time the "better" of the two brothers, yet God chose Jacob.

God says, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." That's collective as well as individual, and we have to live with that.

Any "objective measure" is not God's. God sees into the heart.

Genesis 27:41
And Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing wherewith his father blessed him: and Esau said in his heart, The days of mourning for my father are at hand; then will I slay my brother Jacob.

From Esau came the NATION of Edom... the "nation" that God hated because of their ACTIONS.

Genesis 25:30
And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage; for I am faint: therefore was his name called Edom.

Genesis 25:23
And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Well if you say that Calvinism is a 'pseudo-hypothesis', you have to say Arminianism is as well. They are offshoots of Catholic doctrine on complete opposite ends.

I can't accept the Arminian view either, because they don't believe in "once saved always saved," and I do!!

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Hi Glory...

 

[glorydaz]

Predestinationism is a direct attack upon the character and nature of God.

The God of predestination is a mean, ruthless, unloving, uncaring, tyrant that delights in sending souls to hell.

This is NOT the God of the Bible, this is the God of Calvinism.

It is not possible to have faith in this kind of a God. How can one possibly have faith in a God that would predestinate people to hell? I will answer that for you, you can't, it just is not possible to trust and rely upon a God that is unjust, unmerciful, and is a tyrant.

You might be better off to be an atheist than to blasphemy God and his Son Jesus Christ with all of those false beliefs. Atleast an atheist usually just says he doesn't believe.

But to say that God sends people to hell for no reason other than they were not predestinated to be saved is blasphemy.

I agree. It attacks the very character of our Creator.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

But to say that God sends people to hell for no reason other than they were not predestinated to be saved is blasphemy.

Calvinism doesn't actually posit that at all. Calvin was a deep thinker in philosophy and theology. You are interpreting predestination with a rather shallow perception.

My conversion to the Church was due to a mighty shift in my perception. I fear that Protestants are torn with these things because they have no guiding light and instead go on their own basal reasoning. Mind the Scripture which implies that we are idiots in relevance to God. That is why you should join the Church which has the guiding hand of the Spirit when it comes to doctrine.

 

[glorydaz]

I can't accept the Arminian view either, because they don't believe in "once saved always saved," and I do!!

Hi GM....yep, I'm with you on that one. :thumb: