toldailytopic: Are some people born predestined to go to hell?

[Ktoyou]

ave any of you read, “ Can Man Live Without God” by Ravi Zacharias?

If you hadn’t yet read any book on the necessity of Christianity, you should do yourself the justice and read this book!

Here is one quote: “ Atheism is not merely a passive unbelief in God but an assertive denial of the major claims of all varieties of theism; atheism contradicts belief in God with a positive affirmation of matter as ultimate reality”

Absolute denial of the absolute.

"Kant does not deny that God has given us His commands. He just denies the need of that revelation since reason alone, he contends, impels us to what it right."

To the question; if one believes he is saved by God’s will alone, then another would have to contend, he is not saved by God’s will alone and there is nothing he can do about it. I have never met one who believes in predestination, who holds himself bound for hell, with no recourse.


“ I am not acquainted with a brighter mind or more relevant and devoted defender of the Christian faith than Ravi Zacharias” Charles Swindoll.

“Ravi Zacharias’s presentations on truth are the most engaging, penetrating, and challenging lectures on this topic I have ever heard” Norman Geisler

Read this book with an introspective mind and if you care, I will discuss it with anyone on any level one chooses.
Kat

 

[kmoney]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for August 10th, 2012 02:21 PM

toldailytopic: Are some people born predestined to go to hell?

I don't believe so. A God who would do so doesn't deserve to be worshiped, respected, loved, or followed.

 

[steko]

ave any of you read, “ Can Man Live Without God” by Ravi Zacharias?

If you hadn’t yet read any book on the necessity of Christianity, you should do yourself the justice and read this book!

Here is one quote: “ Atheism is not merely a passive unbelief in God but an assertive denial of the major claims of all varieties of theism; atheism contradicts belief in God with a positive affirmation of matter as ultimate reality”

Absolute denial of the absolute.

"Kant does not deny that God has given us His commands. He just denies the need of that revelation since reason alone, he contends, impels us to what it right."

To the question; if one believes he is saved by God’s will alone, then another would have to contend, he is not saved by God’s will alone and there is nothing he can do about it. I have never met one who believes in predestination, who holds himself bound for hell, with no recourse.


“ I am not acquainted with a brighter mind or more relevant and devoted defender of the Christian faith than Ravi Zacharias” Charles Swindoll.

“Ravi Zacharias’s presentations on truth are the most engaging, penetrating, and challenging lectures on this topic I have ever heard” Norman Geisler

Read this book with an introspective mind and if you care, I will discuss it with anyone on any level one chooses.
Kat

I've read it, but it's been quite awhile.
All of his books are excellent.
So are Norman Geisler's.

I'll go back and review it. Thanks, for bringing it up!

 

[sky.]

Uh, yes it is, otherwise what's the point of going on about being predestined to it or otherwise? If it's the grave then everybody already is unless you believe in a rapture....

You have to know who is going to be raptured before you can even address what comes next.

This thread is about before not after.

 

[Lighthouse]

God does not turn away those who honestly seek Him.

I thought you opposed the open view.

 

[Angel4Truth]

I don't believe so. A God who would do so doesn't deserve to be worshiped, respected, loved, or followed.

Aren't you the god when you are deciding worthiness of God?

 

[Angel4Truth]

God does not turn away those who honestly seek Him.

Only those with a will can seek.

 

[sky.]

I thought you opposed the open view.

Go away, dimhouse.

 

[sky.]

Only those with a will can seek.

I think that is true. Only some have set their will against God. They can't blame it on God.

Romans 1:19-21

19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

 

[Cracked]

I don't believe so. A God who would do so doesn't deserve to be worshiped, respected, loved, or followed.

By whose standards? :think:

I do not buy the dispensational view of Romans 9:

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory — even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Perhaps, there is a middle path between predestination and absolute freewill? Scripture seems to speak to such a thing, but some Christians seem to hate the idea because they cannot quantify it and take away all the mystery--it is either/or but never both. Others note that everything to do with predestination sounds like a horrible thing, and Paul addresses that above.

Love, as many have noted, cannot be forced. However, love also comes from God. So, if God loves you, you can love Him back. However, if God has preordained that you shall reject Him for His own purposes, who can complain--or at least, what good can come from your protests?

Humanity cannot choose salvation independent of God, nor can they make God indebted to them through works or mental ascent. They cannot keep the entire law as Jesus explains for us, nor can they ever do enough good.

However, salvation is an option by grace through faith. In exercising our freewill to choose to heed God's call, we can believe and proclaim the Gospel--except for those whom God has hardened for His purposes. Like Abraham, we are justified by faith. We hear the message, and we believe. Like sleepers, we awake at the gospel's call. Those who are hardened never wake up--some of them by design, others because they willfully reject God. And this is the point that I think many miss--that both predestination and freewill can exist together, but also neither is an absolute.

 

[oatmeal]

no!

 

[Lighthouse]

Go away, dimhouse.

You can't have it both ways. Either God knew from before creation who would go to Hell, or He did not. And if He did then they were born predestined for Hell. And you cannot say that God turns no one away because He already knew who would honestly seek Him before they ever had the chance to do so.

 

[sky.]

You can't have it both ways. Either God knew from before creation who would go to Hell, or He did not. And if He did then they were born predestined for Hell. And you cannot say that God turns no one away because He already knew who would honestly seek Him before they ever had the chance to do so.

Let me tell you something really smart dimhouse. The Bible and the Author of Salvation is like a banquet that a Professional prepared. THE Professional. In order to get it you have to eat it all.

 

[eameece]

If "hell" is the grave then yes, pretty much everyone ends up in it. If it's some place/realm of eternal unbearable suffering then you can *thank* dogma for it. The idea that a loving God would create such a place/condition, life and then determine who would interminably suffer is atrocious. In fact the whole notion of eternal suffering is....

lain:

Right. Hell is a state of mind, whether here on Earth or hereafter.

 

[Lighthouse]

Let me tell you something really smart dimhouse. The Bible and the Author of Salvation is like a banquet that a Professional prepared. THE Professional. In order to get it you have to eat it all.

Stop equivocating.

Did God know from before creation who would go to Hell? Yes or no?

 

[Cracked]

I don't believe so. A God who would do so doesn't deserve to be worshiped, respected, loved, or followed.

In addition... and thinking out loud here:

If you, as a child, are loved fiercely by your Father, and He defends you and cares for you against all enemies--would you say that He is cruel to those who wish you harm? And, if He places you in the midst of wolves and fools to display His love and make it undeniable, do you hate Him for it?

As a child you only know His love through the great care He has taken for you. You may say, "thank you Father for your grace, though I do not deserve it. Though I do not fully comprehend your ways, I know that you alone are good, and that no one is righteous and all deserve destruction--even me. And yet, you give your mercy to me and call me your child and prove it time and again by your rod and your staff. I pray your grace will extend to others."

You may also say, "I reject you and you are not my father, because you have rejected those who hate you, either through their will or your sovereignty. I will join them, and we will oppose you because I see that you are unjust. I seek their fickle love because I have judge your unfailing love biased. I will usurp your position to justify those who hate you because I find you unworthy."

One way of looking at it...

 

[sky.]

Stop equivocating.

Did God know from before creation who would go to Hell? Yes or no?

God includes in His plan all who will believe. Your wrath against predestination and God's foreknowledge is wasted effort and diminishes your purpose.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I'm saying those that are chosen will seek and believe, those that are not, won't.

The fate of all of humanity is the same except for the mercy of God. He will have mercy on whom he has mercy. It may not seem fair, but mercy isn't fair. But we don't fully know the extent of God's mercy and we don't really know that "hell" is a place of eternal punishment rather than annihilation either.

You're obviously a "Calvinist." You're also dead wrong!!

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Look GM, I don't believe in eternal suffering or some sort of simple black/white/paradise/pit. To believe in eternal torment for others would mean sacrificing those attributes I happen to value such as empathy and compassion. I think the dogma of hell as such is a hideous fabrication of man rooted in manipulation through fear. The early church didn't teach this monstrous travesty in the main so if you're happy enough with eternal torment as being the "truth" then it's your choice.

Personally, I, first and foremost believe what Revelation 20:15 says; "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Now whether that means complete "annihilation" or some form of "eternal punishment, I'm uncertain. As a Christian believer I trust that, either way, God is justified in whatever He see's fit. Just because you or I or anyone else thinks it's too cruel, doesn't make any difference. After all, God is God and His will be done!!!

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Only those with a will can seek.

We all have a "free-will."