toldailytopic: Are some people born predestined to go to hell?

[Grosnick Marowbe]

You can't have it both ways. Either God knew from before creation who would go to Hell, or He did not. And if He did then they were born predestined for Hell. And you cannot say that God turns no one away because He already knew who would honestly seek Him before they ever had the chance to do so.

God has foreknowledge of all. However, that doesn't interfere with man's "free-will choice." God created all of
mankind with "freewill" When someone hears the Gospel preached,
they can either accept or reject the message. The Bible says; "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" (Bible).

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Asked and answered. :AMR:

AMR

 

[All12Cylinders]

Asked and answered. :AMR:

AMR

Have you forgotten, this is TOL...,

and forgotten.

The theology on this forum is awful, the dumb leading the lame, following after the blind.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

It really depends on the angle of perspective.

I personally believe that the debate is impossible to win for both those who believe wholly in predestination or free will.

Free will is observable, but an omnipotent being does not simply make something and not know the outcome. I have come to the conclusion that free will and predestination are dualistic.

 

[zoo22]

Have you forgotten, this is TOL...,

and forgotten.

The theology on this forum is awful, the dumb leading the lame, following after the blind.

Oh, stop it. Please.

 

[Totton Linnet]

The place of eternal punishment was created for Satan and his angels, there IS no scripture to support that God predestined any to hell, it has always been assumed that since God predestined some to be like Jesus and some are predestined for the praise of His glorious grace and that according to foreknowledge then [the assumption goes] He must have predestined all others to damnation.

It is a MONSTROUS assumption. When people blinker their eyes with it they skate over a great many scriptures which say differently.

The apostles in acts never threatened anyone with damnation, they DID warn that God has set a day and chosen One who will judge all men and women.

The wicked will be turned into hell, why should they not? but God will judge with equity...perfect justice.

This doctrine is the soft underbelly of the evangelical church and the devil knows it. If christians did not spend so much time damning everyone they might have to dig a little deeper to bring out the glorious GOOD NEWS message of living water and abundant life. The problem there is the GOOD news needs to be demonstrated.

They cain't preach the GOOD message because they don't have the power of it in their own lives. Doctrines they can preach.

 

[Totton Linnet]

God has foreknowledge of all. However, that doesn't interfere with man's "free-will choice." God created all of
mankind with "freewill" When someone hears the Gospel preached,
they can either accept or reject the message. The Bible says; "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" (Bible).

I never read an epistle which said "Thanks be to God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who has granted us free will whereby we have made a decision to accept His Son"

laffable

I never read any where God said "behold I give unto you freewill"

Adam could choose to obey and live [that's God's will not man's] or he could disobey and die [that's God's will not man's]

But Adam having DISobeyed has sold the whole of mankind and creation with him into BONDAGE.

So speak all the epistles. The only freedom there is is in Christ.

Too many is's there

 

[SilenceInMotion]

The place of eternal punishment was created for Satan and his angels, there IS no scripture to support that God predestined any to hell, it has always been assumed that since God predestined some to be like Jesus and some are predestined for the praise of His glorious grace and that according to foreknowledge then [the assumption goes] He must have predestined all others to damnation.

It is a MONSTROUS assumption. When people blinker their eyes with it they skate over a great many scriptures which say differently.

The apostles in acts never threatened anyone with damnation, they DID warn that God has set a day and chosen One who will judge all men and women.

The wicked will be turned into hell, why should they not? but God will judge with equity...perfect justice.

This doctrine is the soft underbelly of the evangelical church and the devil knows it. If christians did not spend so much time damning everyone they might have to dig a little deeper to bring out the glorious GOOD NEWS message of living water and abundant life. The problem there is the GOOD news needs to be demonstrated.

They cain't preach the GOOD message because they don't have the power of it in their own lives. Doctrines they can preach.

In other words, the best argument for free will is a montage of one-sided opinion.


Predestination in itself is true. There simply is no logic that overturns it; it is utterly unavoidable.

However, that doesn't mean free will does not exist either. They do not conflict against each other. Arminians and Calvinists have gone to opposite ends of a truth that stands at the center.

 

[Totton Linnet]

In other words, the best argument for free will is a montage of one-sided opinion.


Predestination in itself is true. There simply is no logic that overturns it; it is utterly unavoidable.

However, that doesn't mean free will does not exist either. They do not conflict against each other. Arminians and Calvinists have gone to opposite ends of a truth that stands at the center.

*
Freewill cannot exist alongside bondage, if you are bound you are not free.

Two things as sure as eggs, man is bound to sin and he is bound to die.

Jesus came to set man free.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

*
Freewill cannot exist alongside bondage, if you are bound you are not free.

Two things as sure as eggs, man is bound to sin and he is bound to die.

Jesus came to set man free.

How does free will exist alone?

I will await your surely realistic, logical response.

 

[Totton Linnet]

How does free will exist alone?

I will await your surely realistic, logical response.

Only God has free sovereign will. We are created for a purpose, God's purpose. Our perfect freedom is performing God's will.

When God created man there was nothing burdensome in God's will for him, He placed him in a garden of great beauty and abundance.

Peace and joy reigned and the fellowship between man and his Creator was love.

A fish is not put in bondage by water, water is his freedom, see how happily he swims. A bird is not encumbered by fresh air it is his enablement to mount up on wings of joy.

Man's perfect freedom was always to be what God created him for [simple, to reflect the glory of God] but he has been lured away from his freedom and is like a fish on the river bank or a bird in a cage. He is in bondage.

Now YOU tell that shooter in Colorado that it was his free will to kill those poor people, I say he is in bondage to a wicked murderous spirit. Who is telling him the truth?

Who is offering him any hope? if he acted by his own freewill then he has no hope, if he acted because he is enslaved he may cry to One mightier than he who enslaves him to be SET FREE.

The doctrine of freewill only came into the church because people were angry with Calvin's double predestination.....there is nothing wrong with Paul's predestination.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I never read an epistle which said "Thanks be to God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who has granted us free will whereby we have made a decision to accept His Son"

laffable

I never read any where God said "behold I give unto you freewill"

Adam could choose to obey and live [that's God's will not man's] or he could disobey and die [that's God's will not man's]

But Adam having DISobeyed has sold the whole of mankind and creation with him into BONDAGE.

So speak all the epistles. The only freedom there is is in Christ.

Too many is's there

I'm sorry the idea of "choice" bothers you, but we who have been
saved (forgiven our sins, received God's mercy, and guaranteed with eternal life) were not, "chosen" from before the foundation of the world, but received our salvation through the hearing of the word, and believing on the Lord Jesus Christ!!! If that offends you, then you have a dispute with God's word, the Holy Bible, not me...

 

[Totton Linnet]

I'm sorry the idea of "choice" bothers you, but we who have been
saved (forgiven our sins, received God's mercy, and guaranteed with eternal life) were not, "chosen" from before the foundation of the world, but received our salvation through the hearing of the word, and believing on the Lord Jesus Christ!!! If that offends you, then you have a dispute with God's word, the Holy Bible, not me...

But the bible says you were chosen in Him before all worlds began.

Moreover Christ said "you have not chosen Me but I have chosen you"

"No man may come to Me unless the Father draw him"

Why these glorious and precious truths offend people is a mystery to me, they are full of assurance and comfort.

I'll tell you why they upset you, YOU have fallen into the same mistake as Calvin. YOU also suppose that because the bible says "whom God foreknew He also predestined" therefore means He must have predestined all others to damnation.

You are making the very same mistake, so don't blame Calvin for making a boo boo when YOU are making the same boo boo.

"Who are born again not of the flesh or the will of the flesh but by the will of God" but you insist it was your will.

 

[Totton Linnet]

The Divine action is He first sets us free to be able to choose.

"Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free."

 

[Traditio]

I am going to give an answer which must be accepted by reason alone, rather than task myself with attempting to deduce the doctrine from Scripture. Some considerations:

1. God is Supremely Good.
2. God is timeless and eternal (against the Open Theists).
3. God has a perfect knowledge of all possible and actual realities.

The Calvinists make a clear error in their doctrine of double pre-destination, namely, that God destines the elect for Heaven and the reprobate for Hell. That He makes them specifically for this reason. To quote wikipedia, he "willed" them to go to Hell.

This contradicts the first point: God is Supremely Good. A God who is the very Analogon of Goodness of Itself cannot possibly make anyone worse. He cannot directly will or approve an evil. But it is a very great evil for a soul to be cast into Hell.

Let the Calvinists claim as much as they like that they've found this terrible doctrine in St. Augustine, but I have yet to find it. In fact, he says the exact opposite in precisely this context in "To Simplician - On Diverse Questions, question 2, section 8." I quote: "That God made one he was to love is unquestionably true. But it is absurd to say that he made some one he was going to hate. For another Scripture says, 'Thou abhorrest none of the things which thou didst make; for never wouldest thou have formed anything if thou didst hate it' (Wisdom 11:24)."

On the other hand, and St. Augustine also raises this point in the same place, every good thing, insofar as it is good, comes from God. Even our good acts of the will. So it is undoubtedly true that God predestines the elect. But it is undoubtedly false that he predestines the reprobate: this would require God to will that someone go to Hell, and this is false.

Of course, God foreknows who will go to Heaven and who will go to Hell. But he permits the damnation of the reprobate. He does not will it. The Church has condemned that terrible doctrine:

"God predestines no one to go to hell" (CCC 1037).

He does not will the reprobation of the reprobate. On the contrary, we should believe that it was precisely for these poor souls for whom He wept so bitterly in the garden.

 

[Town Heretic]

I am going to give an answer which must be accepted by reason alone...

Somebody get a rope...and a pie. lain:

1. God is Supremely Good.

Necessarily. :thumb:

2. God is timeless and eternal (against the Open Theists).

Arguable.

3. God has a perfect knowledge of all possible and actual realities.

A little pointless if a thing isn't, unless you mean it remains possible and then you have a problem or two.

The Calvinists make a clear error in their doctrine of double pre-destination, namely, that God destines the elect for Heaven and the reprobate for Hell. That He makes them specifically for this reason. To he "willed" them to go to Hell.

This contradicts the first point: God is Supremely Good. A God who is the very Analogon of Goodness of Itself cannot possibly make anyone worse. He cannot directly will or approve an evil. But it is a very great evil for a soul to be cast into Hell.

Let the Calvinists claim as much as they like that they've found this terrible doctrine in St. Augustine, but I have yet to find it. In fact, he says the exact opposite in precisely this context in "To Simplician - On Diverse Questions, question 2, section 8." I quote: "That God made one he was to love is unquestionably true. But it is absurd to say that he made some one he was going to hate. For another Scripture says, 'Thou abhorrest none of the things which thou didst make; for never wouldest thou have formed anything if thou didst hate it' (Wisdom 11:24)."

On the other hand, and St. Augustine also raises this point in the same place, every good thing, insofar as it is good, comes from God. Even our good acts of the will. So it is undoubtedly true that God predestines the elect. But it is undoubtedly false that he predestines the reprobate: this would require God to will that someone go to Hell, and this is false.

Of course, God foreknows who will go to Heaven and who will go to Hell. But he permits the damnation of the reprobate. He does not will it. The Church has condemned that terrible doctrine:

"God predestines no one to go to hell" (CCC 1037).

He does not will the reprobation of the reprobate. On the contrary, we should believe that it was precisely for these poor souls for whom He wept so bitterly in the garden.

Without getting into an argument of time at odds with every camp, you have a problem. If God can and does will some to election and heaven then unless you hold that some who are not so willed nevertheless arrive God would have damned by omission, understanding that without His direct action that better end would remain closed to man. And you're right back at your problem with the good.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Go away, dimhouse.

That was a completely out of line response.

Lighthouse is asking you an honest question. You typically mock the open view yet on this thread you are clearly supporting it. :idunno:

What gives?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

But the bible says you were chosen in Him before all worlds began.

Moreover Christ said "you have not chosen Me but I have chosen you"

"No man may come to Me unless the Father draw him"

Why these glorious and precious truths offend people is a mystery to me, they are full of assurance and comfort.

I'll tell you why they upset you, YOU have fallen into the same mistake as Calvin. YOU also suppose that because the bible says "whom God foreknew He also predestined" therefore means He must have predestined all others to damnation.

You are making the very same mistake, so don't blame Calvin for making a boo boo when YOU are making the same boo boo.

"Who are born again not of the flesh or the will of the flesh but by the will of God" but you insist it was your will.

Again! Calvinism is only a set of "interpretations" of Scripture. If you will; a, "pseudo-hypothesis!" There are those that, by into it and those who do not!! We'll have to agree to disagree won't we??

 

[Alate_One]

You're obviously a "Calvinist." You're also dead wrong!!

Oh noes He figured it out! (The Calvinist part)

I don't normally bother posting about it, because I don't consider it a salvation issue. I think Calvinism is fairly obvious from scripture but some people feel the need to believe things like open theism to keep believing.

I believe these alternative theologies ultimately come down to the highly unusual and very individualist culture, really unknown in the history of the world up until this point.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Oh noes He figured it out! (The Calvinist part)

I don't normally bother posting about it, because I don't consider it a salvation issue. I think Calvinism is fairly obvious from scripture but some people feel the need to believe things like open theism to keep believing.

I believe these alternative theologies ultimately come down to the highly unusual and very individualist culture, really unknown in the history of the world up until this point.

Believe what you will, and let the rest of us believe what we will. That way we'll have some sort of harmony. By the way, free-will isn't just
a belief that started a couple of weeks ago as you would have others to believe. It's referenced in Scripture several, several times. Not under the words "freewill" but in the context relating to our relationship with God....