Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You talk big but where is your evidence?
Theology Club: Today Many in the Neo-MAD Camp are King James Only
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
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You talk big but where is your evidence?
Right Divider
Body part
Jerry, this "issue" was quite adequately addressed by a couple of people. Your stubbornness and inability to understand anyone but yourself is visible to all.
That fact that you cannot tell the difference between accurate TRANSLATION of the ACTUAL Greek text and YOUR desperate NEED for it to be TRANSLATED the way that you THINK IT MEANS is your personal problem.
Go deal with it!
Why 'probably'? I doubt it. PRWTE in this verse is feminine. That's very specific and can only be related to a specific noun, which in this case is implicit. It relates to the understood word HEMERA, which is also feminine and means day. Omitting the word 'day' itself is also a common use of the feminine adjective of numbers in relation to time. We do exactly the same thing: we don't say 'on the first day of August' do we? We say simply 'First August'. We omit several words because they are understood. It's not as if anyone is guessing about this. It is a well known Greek usage. And the dative case is for time when.
It is possible to use prwtos as an adverb but it usually means 'firstly', not 'before'. And there again, the adverb is usually in the neuter form, prwton. In order for it to mean 'before' it would need to be in the comparative form 'proteron'.
All the evidence is there as clear as clear. I don't know where you got the idea from but it sounds like someone is, like Jerry, emabarrassed that the text says that the first day of unleavened bread was on the day of passover and is just trying to find some technical excuse for it.
As RightDivider said, it is Jerry's problem getting his head round that. The problem does not lie with the text itself. In my post 29 I explained simply what the origin of the problem was and ever since then, even though the solution is simple and obvious, and from a viewpoint of Greek grammar and use, totally uncontentious, yet Jerry has sought to hang on there, hoping something will come up to prove him right so that he can say 'see all your learning counted for nothing and I, the lowly Jerry Shugart, beat you all!' His pride has made him look foolish.
Right Divider
Body part
Yes, Jerry's original premise is that the KJV is INCORRECTLY translated:
After being proven WRONG, Jerry goes into his usual "Why won't you answer my question?" mode.</cut>
achduke
Active member
I know of no one that says FIRST AUGUST, In any case The first day of unleavened bread does not line up with scripture as it is translated in Matthew 26:17.
Matt 26:17 Now on the first day of the Feast of the Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying to Him, "Where do You want us to prepare for You to eat the Passover?"
They would have already prepared for the passover by the 1st of unleavened bread which is a Sabbath.
In addition Matt 27:62 shows Christ was crucified on the Day of Preparation which is before the 1st day of unleavened bread.
Mat 27:62 On the next day, which followed the Day of Preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees gathered together to Pilate,
Also I will look back at your post 29 to see your full explanation.
...
After reading your reply #29. I see that they could group passover with unleavened bread. Hopefully though the original scriptures being inspired by the holy spirit would line up with the rest of scripture. I know many believe translations are divinely inspired yet they all differ a little.
Hi and ALL Translations are not inspired or did I not get the MEMO , and ONLY the Original Autographs were inspired !!
dan p
You mean NONE of the translations are inspired.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
As usual you failed to even attempt to answer the points which I made here:
I just wanted to remind you that earlier on this thread (Post #36, p.3) you said that the Passover lambs were killed on the 14th:
Still waiting for you to reconcile that fact to your idea that the KJV translation at Matthew 26:17 is correct:
"Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?... Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve. And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me. And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I? And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me" (Mt.26:17-18,20-23; KJV).
The 'first day of the feast of unleavenedd bread" was on the 15th (Lev.23:6).
Now let us look at the same exact day described in the book of Mark from the KJV:
"... And in the evening he cometh with the twelve....And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me. And they began to be sorrowful, and to say unto him one by one, Is it I? and another said, Is it I? And he answered and said unto them, It is one of the twelve, that dippeth with me in the dish" (Mk.14:12,17-20; KJV).
Both of these passages are describing the same identical day. And when we look at the passage from Mark we can see that the day in question is when the killed the Passover lamb:
"And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?" (Mk.14:12; KJV).
Since you admit that the Passover lamb was killed on the 14th then the day in question was the 14th. But according to the KJV translation at Matthew 26:17 we must believe that identical day was the 15th.
That identical day cannot be the 14th and the 15th at the same time because it can only be one or the other. So either the KJV translation at Matthew 26:17 is in error or it is the KJV translation of Mark 16:14 which is in error.
Now prove that you really want to have an honest discussion on this subject and you can do that by answering an easy question:
Do you admit that the context surrounding both Matthew 26:17 and Mark 14:12 prove that those verses are speaking of the same exact day?
I realize that this question might may be difficult for you to answer because you obviously have a very difficult time understanding what the Scriptures actually say. But if you will study the events described in the context of Matthew 16:17 and Mark 14:12 I think that you might actually be able to come to a conclusion.
So show us that you actually have the ability to answer my question. Otherwise, just admit that you are helpless when it comes to finding the answer.
Hi , and I said ALL translations are NOT Inspired and ONLY the Original autographs ate Inspired !!
I use the old KJV because I grew up with it !!''
Most translations are Paraphrases , Transliterations and some Literal !!
dan p
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Well, I guess in the States you say 'August one.' Here we say 'First of August' 'August First' or 'August the first'. But in all such cases we don't use the word 'day' except in very formal language or writing or for some kind of emphasis.
The issue of whether the text lines up with other scripture is totally irrelevant to the actual Greek text, which has been properly translated in pretty much all translations I have seen. Only Jerry has an issue with it because he wants to prove the KJV is in error. Of course the KJV is in error - in some places - as are all translations. But this is not one of those places. And from Jerry's point of view, it should have been left there. He had plenty of other places he could go to to see errors in the KJV. He had plenty of other arguments against KJVonlyism. And yet he chose to dig his heels in on this silly little issue. Pride is the only explanation.
As I said previously, the fact that the text is at variance with Leviticus is acknowledged. But, that is not an issue of translation. No amount of translation can make the text say something that it doesn't. I already went through this earlier in the discussion.
achduke
Active member
I do hear First of August. Also I do agree that all translations have errors. I only desire truth.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
As usual you talk big but when it comes time to actually addressing what is said in the Bible you are as helpless as a little child.
For instance, you are unable to answer this question:
Do you admit that the context surrounding both Matthew 26:17 and Mark 14:12 prove that those verses are speaking of the same exact day?
You are unable to reason out of the Scriptures so you cannot figure it out. You are:
"Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth" (2 Tim.3:7).
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
It is you who is running and hiding from my argument.
Obviously you do not have the requiste knowledge to understand that these two translations from Matthew and Mark are speaking about the same exact day:
"Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?... Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve. And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me. And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I? And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me" (Mt.26:17-18,20-23; KJV).
"And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?... And in the evening he cometh with the twelve....And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me. And they began to be sorrowful, and to say unto him one by one, Is it I? and another said, Is it I? And he answered and said unto them, It is one of the twelve, that dippeth with me in the dish" (Mk.14:12,17-20; KJV).
Anyone with the slightest degree of spiritual discernment can understand the "day" spoken of at Matthew 26:17 is the same exact day as the day mentioned at Mark 14:12.
But if you cannot see that truth you must argue that there were two separate and distinct occasions when Judas dipped his hand in the dish with the Lord Jesus.
You say that this translation is correct:
"Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?" (Mt.26:17; KJV).
According to the law the "first day of the feast of unleavened bread" happened on the 15th day of the month:
"And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread" (Lev.23:6; KJV).
And on the same exact day the Passover lambs were killed:
"And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?" (Mk.14:12; KJV).
You admit that the Passover lambs were killed on the 14thn day of the month.
So if we are to believe your idea that the translation of Matthew 26:16 in the KJV is correct then we must believe that the date of the day we have been discussing was both the 14th and the 15thh.
But we all know that is impossible. And since yo have no way to reconcile your idea about Matthew 26:17 with Mark 14:12 you just run and hide from these truths which I have pointed out.
Because of your pride you refuse to admit you are wrong and go on deceiving others into believing that the translation in the KJV at Matthew 26:17 is without error.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The first day of unleavened bread was the same day when they killed the Passover lamb:
"And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?" (Mk.14:12; KJV).
You admitted that the Passover lamb was killed on the 14th:
So do you admit that the first day of unleavened bread happened on the 14th?
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Yep, Desert Reign is hiding out at that Mid-Acts comedy club where a certain would be impressionist is laughed at:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112768
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You are out of control and obviously in need of professional help.
I will no longer respond to anything new which you say because my remarks just make your condition worse.
I pray in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ that you will seek help.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The first day of unleavened bread was the same day when they killed the Passover lamb:
"And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?" (Mk.14:12; KJV).
You admitted that the Passover lamb was killed on the 14th:
So do you admit that the first day of unleavened bread happened on the 14th?
KJV - is my favorite