Theology Club: Today Many in the Neo-MAD Camp are King James Only

[Desert Reign]

Wonder what happened to Desert Reign?

I want to see how he is going to argue that the 14th day of the month is the same exact day as the 15th.

He's sick of you.

You are just making excuses for Desert Reign because he just runs and hides from the truths I presented.

Perhaps you can convince us that the 14th day of the month is the same exact day as the 15th? Or will you also run and hide from the truths which I presented?

Nah.

Foolish man, DR has not even tried to say that the 14th is the exact day as the 15th.

That is what he will have to do in order to defend his idea that the translation at Matthew 26:17 in the KJV is not a blunder!

I see that you still want to show how foolish you are. I thought I would give you a rest but as you are so adamant then I will add some more comment. Of course I have already answered your question in relation to Luke 22:1. But I thought it was time to roll out some more interesting arguments...

You claim that because the word 'eorte' is absent from the original Greek text, we must therefore translate 'first day of unleavened bread'.

Let's grant you that. So what then does the text say? Well, it literally says that!
'On the first day of unleavened bread...'

But everyone knows that unleavened bread existed for thousands of years before this time. And so did the feast of Unleavened Bread. So by your own logic, this translation must be wrong because it wasn't the first day at all. At very least there must have been 105,000 (yes, one hundred and five thousand) days of unleavened bread prior to that day when the disciples wanted to know where to eat the paschal meal.

I've done what you wanted, Jerry and made you look foolish again. I stress that this has been at your own request, not mine. But if you want to come back for more, I am sure I can still find you something else.

It is obvious that many things are assumed when we communicate with each other. In most cases, we are not even aware of them. In this case it was assumed that everyone meant 'The first day of the feast of that year'. But it doesn't say that explicitly, does it Jerry?

Does it Jerry? Was it really the first day of unleavened bread?

Yes or no?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

No, he wont. Because there is nothing wrong with the translation.
The only problem is your understanding of the translation.

Others have tried to explain it to you. But you just stuff your ears and ignore them.
That's why sooooo many folks are sick to death of you, Jerry.
You don't want to study it out with folks. You just want to soapbox, pound the podium, and throw more hissies declaring anyone that does not follow you is wrong.

I can see Ole Jer arguing with the LORD in heaven, quoting Andersen and O'Hair to Him. I just hope he does not accuse the LORD of running and hiding.

 

[Tambora]

I see that you still want to show how foolish you are. I thought I would give you a rest but as you are so adamant then I will add some more comment. Of course I have already answered your question in relation to Luke 22:1. But I thought it was time to roll out some more interesting arguments...

You claim that because the word 'eorte' is absent from the original Greek text, we must therefore translate 'first day of unleavened bread'.

Let's grant you that. So what then does the text say? Well, it literally says that!
'On the first day of unleavened bread...'

But everyone knows that unleavened bread existed for thousands of years before this time. And so did the feast of Unleavened Bread. So by your own logic, this translation must be wrong because it wasn't the first day at all. At very least there must have been 105,000 (yes, one hundred and five thousand) days of unleavened bread prior to that day when the disciples wanted to know where to eat the paschal meal.

I've done what you wanted, Jerry and made you look foolish again. I stress that this has been at your own request, not mine. But if you want to come back for more, I am sure I can still find you something else.

It is obvious that many things are assumed when we communicate with each other. In most cases, we are not even aware of them. In this case it was assumed that everyone meant 'The first day of the feast of that year'. But it doesn't say that explicitly, does it Jerry?

Does it Jerry? Was it really the first day of unleavened bread?

Yes or no?

I just love this place!

That about the way Jerry tortures a verse while thinking himself to be profound.

 

[Tambora]

I can see Ole Jer arguing with the LORD in heaven, quoting Andersen and O'Hair to Him. I just hope he does not accuse the LORD of running and hiding.

:argue:

"Yeah, yeah, yeah, Lord, whatever. Scoot out of the way, will ya Lord, so I can check to see that you let someone in that I don't think should be here."

I feel a whirlwind cranking up.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

:argue:

"Yeah, yeah, yeah, Lord, whatever. Scoot out of the way, will ya Lord, so I can check to see that you let someone in that I don't think should be here."

I feel a whirlwind cranking up.

Well, his body will have been changed by then, so I would hope the pride will be gone.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I've done what you wanted, Jerry and made you look foolish again.

As usual you failed to even attempt to answer the points which I made here:

I just wanted to remind you that earlier on this thread (Post #36, p.3) you said that the Passover lambs were killed on the 14th:

The lamb itself was slaughtered and cooked in the evening or (if you want to be literal as Leviticus actually says 'between the evenings'.) In practice what that meant was any time after the sun started to go down. So it was definitely the same day because they did the preparation in the morning and they slaughtered the lamb in the evening. The evening however counted as the 14th after sundown.

Still waiting for you to reconcile that fact to your idea that the KJV translation at Matthew 26:17 is correct:

"Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?... Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve. And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me. And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I? And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me" (Mt.26:17-18,20-23; KJV).​

The 'first day of the feast of unleavenedd bread" was on the 15th (Lev.23:6).

Now let us look at the same exact day described in the book of Mark from the KJV:

"... And in the evening he cometh with the twelve....And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me. And they began to be sorrowful, and to say unto him one by one, Is it I? and another said, Is it I? And he answered and said unto them, It is one of the twelve, that dippeth with me in the dish" (Mk.14:12,17-20; KJV).​

Both of these passages are describing the same identical day. And when we look at the passage from Mark we can see that the day in question is when the killed the Passover lamb:

"And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?" (Mk.14:12; KJV).​

Since you admit that the Passover lamb was killed on the 14th then the day in question was the 14th. But according to the KJV translation at Matthew 26:17 we must believe that identical day was the 15th.

That identical day cannot be the 14th and the 15th at the same time because it can only be one or the other. So either the KJV translation at Matthew 26:17 is in error or it is the KJV translation of Mark 16:14 which is in error.

Now prove that you really want to have an honest discussion on this subject and you can do that by answering an easy question:

Do you admit that the context surrounding both Matthew 26:17 and Mark 14:12 prove that those verses are speaking of the same exact day?​

I realize that this question might may be difficult for you to answer because you obviously have a very difficult time understanding what the Scriptures actually say. But if you will study the events described in the context of Matthew 16:17 and Mark 14:12 I think that you might actually be able to come to a conclusion.

So show us that you actually have the ability to answer my question. Otherwise, just admit that you are helpless when it comes to finding the answer.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Desert Reign,

You can prove that you really want to have an honest discussion on this subject all you have to do is answer this easy question:

Do you admit that the context surrounding both Matthew 26:17 and Mark 14:12 prove that those verses are speaking of the same exact day?​

I realize that this question might may be difficult for you to answer because you obviously have a very difficult time understanding what the Scriptures actually say. But if you will study the events described in the context of both Matthew 16:17 and Mark 14:12 I think that you might actually be able to come to a conclusion.

So show us that you actually have the ability to answer my question. Otherwise, just admit that you are helpless when it comes to finding the answer.

 

[Right Divider]

Why didn't you answer my question?

So when we examine the context of what is said at Matthew 26:17 the subject is not really really the Passover Seder but instead the "overall feast of unleavened bread"?:

"Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover? And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples. And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the Passover" (Mt.26:17-19).​

Is that what you are saying? That every time the word "Passover" is used in these verses it is referring to "the overall feast of Unleavened Bread"?​

I am asking you if every time the word "Passover" is used in the verses which I quoted is it referring to "the overall feast of Unleavened Bread."

What is your answer?

Jerry, you're just being an idiot.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry, you're just being an idiot.

I have not seen you even attempt to answer my evidence that proves that the translation of Matthew 26:17 in the KJV is in error.

According to you anyone who would dare use the Scriptures to support his view is an "idiot."

You are as bad as Desert Reign, who refuses to answer simple questions. Why don't you answer it for him since his spiritual I.Q. is so low that he is befuddled concerning the most simple things taught in the Bible. Here is the question which he still has not answered:

Do you admit that the context surrounding both Matthew 26:17 and Mark 14:12 prove that those verses are speaking of the same exact day?​

"Yes" or "no"?

 

[Danoh]

Jerry, you're just being an idiot.

:second:

 

[Right Divider]

I have not seen you even attempt to answer my evidence that proves that the translation of Matthew 26:17 in the KJV is in error.

According to you anyone who would dare use the Scriptures to support his view is an "idiot."

You are as bad as Desert Reign, who refuses to answer simple questions. Why don't you answer it for him since his spiritual I.Q. is so low that he is befuddled concerning the most simple things taught in the Bible. Here is the question which he still has not answered:

Do you admit that the context surrounding both Matthew 26:17 and Mark 14:12 prove that those verses are speaking of the same exact day?​

"Yes" or "no"?

Jerry, this "issue" was quite adequately addressed by a couple of people. Your stubbornness and inability to understand anyone but yourself is visible to all.

That fact that you cannot tell the difference between accurate TRANSLATION of the ACTUAL Greek text and YOUR desperate NEED for it to be TRANSLATED the way that you THINK IT MEANS is your personal problem.

Go deal with it!

 

[achduke]

I have not seen you even attempt to answer my evidence that proves that the translation of Matthew 26:17 in the KJV is in error.

According to you anyone who would dare use the Scriptures to support his view is an "idiot."

You are as bad as Desert Reign, who refuses to answer simple questions. Why don't you answer it for him since his spiritual I.Q. is so low that he is befuddled concerning the most simple things taught in the Bible. Here is the question which he still has not answered:

Do you admit that the context surrounding both Matthew 26:17 and Mark 14:12 prove that those verses are speaking of the same exact day?​

"Yes" or "no"?

From what I can gather "DAY" is not in the Greek text and "FIRST" should probably be translated as before.

"Now before the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Yahshua"

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry, this "issue" was quite adequately addressed by a couple of people. You stubbornness and inability to understand anyone but yourself is visible to all.

Why did you refuse to answer my simple question?

Of course you know that it dooms the stupid argument put forth by Desert Reign.

 

[Right Divider]

Why did you refuse to answer my simple question?

Of course you know that it dooms the stupid argument put forth by Desert Reign.

No one should dare not answer a question by Jerry the Great.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

From what I can gather "DAY" is not in the Greek text and "FIRST" should probably be translated as before.

"Now before the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Yahshua"

You failed to mention that the words "feast of" are not found in the Greek text.

 

[achduke]

You failed to mention that the words "feast of" are not found in the Greek text.

True but unleavened bread is a feast.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No one should dare not answer a question by Jerry the Great.

Do what you want! You prove that you have no interest in the subject of this thread and the only reason you came on it is to say that I am acting like an idiot.

Of course you provided no evidence of that.

 

[Right Divider]

Do what you want! You prove that you have no interest in the subject of this thread and the only reason you came on it is to say that I am acting like an idiot.

Of course you provided no evidence of that.

All of your posts in this thread are evidence enough.

 

[Danoh]

From what I can gather "DAY" is not in the Greek text and "FIRST" should probably be translated as before.

"Now before the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Yahshua"

Not necessarily.

Matthew 26:

17. Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?
18. And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.
19. And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the Passover.

The passages imply that "before the first" day is what is being referred to.

How words are used where they are is ever the key. Reaching for a dictionary, or what have you is always secondary to that if it is even needed.

And talk of one implies the other, as in the phrase "the first day of Christmas" (December 1st. Even though Christmas is the 25th. And in England [as well as in early North American History] they talk of "Christmas week" - yet Christmas is one day. Likewise with the actual sense of the phrase "the Labor Day weekend" which partly refers to that time "before" said Day.).

Mark 14:

1. After two days was the feast of the passover, and of unleavened bread: and the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him by craft, and put him to death.
2. But they said, Not on the feast day, lest there be an uproar of the people.

Note the language - it says "after two days was," and yet is clearly referring to "in" two days. How words are used, give you their intended sense.

This is Basic Elementary School Grammar 101.

Mark 14:

12. And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?
13. And he sendeth forth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go ye into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him.

This going "into the city" business implies some time "before" said killing of the Passover was involved - before Mark 14: 1's "the feast of the passover, and of unleavened bread:"

Luke 22:

1. Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.

7. Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.
8. And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.
9. And they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare?
10. And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in.

Acts 12:

1. Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church.
2. And he killed James the brother of John with the sword.
3. And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. (Then were the days of unleavened bread.)
4. And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.

Ezekiel 45:

21. In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

True but unleavened bread is a feast.

Yes, but the following verse is speaking of the same exact day mentioned at Matthew 26:17:

"And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?" (Mk.14:12; KJV).​

The Passover Lamb was killed and eaten on the 14th:

"And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD" (Num.28:16).​

So if the translation at Mark 14L12 is correct then that day was not the feast of unleavened because that feast did not begin until the next day, the 15th:

"And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread" (Lev.23:6).​