These are NOT the same gospel

[glorydaz]

Maybe it's because you don't understand.

Ah, I think the chances are on my side.

 

[Hoping]

Ah, I think they chances are on my side.

That's not something I would risk to chance.
There is but one gospel.
Jesus died for our sins and was raised from the dead.
Anything else is a response to the "good news".

 

[Tambora]

More so. Paul is talking to Cornelius and others who were "grafted in" when he says this.

He is not speaking to the body of Christ here, but to those gentiles that believed the gospel of the kingdom. Thanks to your link, RD, it all makes sense to me now. Paul "magnifies" his office by speaking to these gentiles saved under the kingdom gospel. They are partakers of the root and fatness of the olive tree. But they are not to boast because they must endure or they too shall be cut off. It's those gentiles that might be cut off....not the body of Christ as Tam and others contend.

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

He's speaking to the whole congregation of the Roman church he is writing to.
The church he plans to go to on his missionary journey (he hasn't been there yet).

Is it a church that has no Jew or Gentile, or is it a church with Jews and Gentile proselytes?

The root is Christ.

 

[Derf]

Ah, I think they chances are on my side.

Ok. But you're probably wrong.

 

[glorydaz]

Ok. But you're probably wrong.

It wouldn't be the first time.

 

[Idolater]

Right.
Paul made it perfectly clear that there has never been a law that could give life or make one righteous because if there had ever been a law that could do that then Christ died in vain.
Works of the law were never included for that.



Galatians 3:21 ESV
Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.


Galatians 2:21 KJV
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

I'm beginning a thought experiment right now, to mentally substitute in my reading, wherever "the law" is instead I'm going to think "Old Covenant" or "Old Testament". I'm going to see if it helps clarify anything.

Of course where Paul says "if a law" which abstracts the Old Covenant making it a type of law instead of reading it "if an Old Testament" I'll read it "if a law", because otherwise it obscures rather than clarifies.

For an example, take Galatians 3, Paul uses "the law" multiple times here:

Galatians 3:1
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the Old Testament, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the Old Testament, or by the hearing of faith?

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

10 For as many as are of the works of the Old Testament are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the Old Testament to do them.

11 But that no man is justified by the Old Testament in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12 And the Old Testament is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the Old Testament, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the Old Testament, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18 For if the inheritance be of the Old Testament, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19 Wherefore then serveth the Old Testament? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

21 Is the Old Testament then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the Old Testament.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the Old Testament, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the Old Testament was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
​

That does appear to clarify this chapter, for me. And as far as I'm concerned the first thought that comes to mind when I read it this way is that seeing the Old Testament so many times makes me think of its opposite, the New Testament or New Covenant. It makes it seem like Paul's constantly implicitly contrasting the New Covenant with the Old.

 

[glorydaz]

He's speaking to the whole congregation of the Roman church he is writing to.
The church he plans to go to on his missionary journey (he hasn't been there yet).

Is it a church that has no Jew or Gentile, or is it a church with Jews and Gentile proselytes?

The root is Christ.

In the portion of scripture we're discussing, Romans 9-11, Paul is talking about Israel, and the gentiles he mentions are those like Cornelius who were brought in under Peter's teaching to the Jews.

 

[Derf]

In the portion of scripture we're discussing, Romans 9-11, Paul is talking about Israel, and the gentiles he mentions are those like Cornelius who were brought in under Peter's teaching to the Jews.

These are Cornelius types?
Romans 11:11 (KJV) I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Romans 11:13 (KJV) For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Romans 11:25 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

[glorydaz]

These are Cornelius types?
Romans 11:11 (KJV) I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Romans 11:13 (KJV) For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Romans 11:25 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Paul is addressing the fact that salvation, the kingdom, and the promises have always been for the Jews. What happened when Jesus and the Apostles came upon gentiles? They were ignored...with a very few exceptions. After the sheet incident, gentiles were to be included. Not into the body of Christ, but into this "fatness of the olive tree". When so many Jews refused to accept their Messiah, but a lot of gentiles did, they were not to boast because they, too, could be cut off. All those believers Jews and gentiles, had to endure to the end to be saved.

Romans 11:17-19 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

 

[Derf]

Paul is addressing the fact that salvation, the kingdom, and the promises have always been for the Jews. What happened when Jesus and the Apostles came upon gentiles? They were ignored...with a very few exceptions. After the sheet incident, gentiles were to be included. Not into the body of Christ, but into this "fatness of the olive tree". When so many Jews refused to accept their Messiah, but a lot of gentiles did, they were not to boast because they, too, could be cut off. All those believers Jews and gentiles, had to endure to the end to be saved.

Romans 11:17-19 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

So how is that about a different type of Gentiles than who Paul wrote Romans to?

 

[glorydaz]

So how is that about a different type of Gentiles than who Paul wrote Romans to?

Romans is called the Romans Road for a reason.
Paul was teaching what had been revealed by the Risen Lord about the Jews and the gentiles.
All kinds of gentiles from all periods of time.
Paul also talks about gentiles only under the law of their conscience.

He does the same with the Jews. Jews zealous for the law, and Jews who believe Jesus is the Messiah.

 

[Derf]

Romans is called the Romans Road for a reason.
Paul was teaching what had been revealed by the Risen Lord about the Jews and the gentiles.
All kinds of gentiles from all periods of time.
Paul also talks about gentiles only under the law of their conscience.

He does the same with the Jews. Jews zealous for the law, and Jews who believe Jesus is the Messiah.

You still haven't answered my question.

 

[glorydaz]

So how is that about a different type of Gentiles than who Paul wrote Romans to?

What does Paul say?

Romans 1:13-15
Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles. I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.
15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

 

[glorydaz]

You still haven't answered my question.

What? Still not answered?

Perhaps if you'll be more concise with what you're asking, I might be able to tell you.

You're basing your question on some assumption, and I'll need to know what that assumption is.

 

[Derf]

What? Still not answered?

Perhaps if you'll be more concise with what you're asking, I might be able to tell you.

You're basing your question on some assumption, and I'll need to know what that assumption is.

That happens sometimes. Sorry.

You said this:

Paul is addressing the fact that salvation, the kingdom, and the promises have always been for the Jews. What happened when Jesus and the Apostles came upon gentiles? They were ignored...with a very few exceptions. After the sheet incident, gentiles were to be included. Not into the body of Christ, but into this "fatness of the olive tree". When so many Jews refused to accept their Messiah, but a lot of gentiles did, they were not to boast because they, too, could be cut off. All those believers Jews and gentiles, had to endure to the end to be saved.

Romans 11:17-19 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

You talk about me basing something on assumptions, but my assumptions aren't that complicated. No "fatness of the olive tree", etc. I would normally assume that a Gentile is a Gentile unless he isn't any longer. There are two ways that I know of that one might no longer be considered a Gentile. 1. He is circumcised and becomes a proselyte, which effectively includes him with the Jews, or 2. He believes in Christ and becomes a Christian, like those Peter wrote to. And like Paul wanted to make:

[1Pe 4:16 KJV] 16 Yet if [any man suffer] as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

[Act 26:27-29 KJV] 27 King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest. 28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian. 29 And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds.

Are there two different kinds of Christian? Or were there in that day? It doesn't seem so to me.
[Act 11:26 KJV] 26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.


I think what you're trying to say is that BECAUSE Paul says those particular Gentiles (the ones in Rome, I suppose) were able to be cut off, they must not have been the type of Christian Gentiles Paul would have brought into the body of Christ. And Peter must have been writing to Christian Jews and Gentiles of a different sort than Paul wrote to, even though Paul wrote to them, too.

Are you seeing the contortions one has to make to divide the church like this? Is it a good idea to seek such a division in the church, if Paul and Peter were working hard NOT to have such division?

 

[musterion]

One way to view this passage is as if Paul refers to the olive tree as representing the righteous position God intended for the whole nation of Israel. The living root remained after the unbelieving, faithless 'tree' was cut down, as Luke said with regard to the 3 years given the fruitless tree.

The wild branches, then, would be the little flock of messianic Jews who were now God's blessed remnant--all that remained of the tree and standing by faith (v. 20)--but who still had to persevere in faith lest they too be cut off.

Also see chapter 4 of Daniel.

 

[glorydaz]

That happens sometimes. Sorry.

You said this:

You talk about me basing something on assumptions, but my assumptions aren't that complicated. No "fatness of the olive tree", etc. I would normally assume that a Gentile is a Gentile unless he isn't any longer. There are two ways that I know of that one might no longer be considered a Gentile. 1. He is circumcised and becomes a proselyte, which effectively includes him with the Jews, or 2. He believes in Christ and becomes a Christian, like those Peter wrote to. And like Paul wanted to make:

1. Is correct

2. is trying to mush together the "little flock" of Kingdom believers with members of the body of Christ, so it misses the mark.

The church in Jerusalem or the little flock was made up of Jews (and proselytes) who accepted Christ as their Messiah. They were mostly Jews who added faith to obedience.

The church (first called CHRISTIANS in Antioch - Paul's GRACE believers) is comprised of ALL THOSE without distinction of race or nation and who believe Paul's gospel. These are members of the body of Christ.

[1Pe 4:16 KJV] 16 Yet if [any man suffer] as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

[Act 26:27-29 KJV] 27 King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest. 28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian. 29 And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds.

Are there two different kinds of Christian? Or were there in that day? It doesn't seem so to me.
[Act 11:26 KJV] 26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Anyone who believed in Jesus ended up being called Christians, but there certainly was a difference.
They were separated by whether they followed the Kingdom gospel or the Gospel of Grace.
The kingdom believers followed the law....works of righteousness, and they had to endure.

God required more from His chosen people than He did from the gentiles who had never had Israel's God or His favor.

I think what you're trying to say is that BECAUSE Paul says those particular Gentiles (the ones in Rome, I suppose) were able to be cut off, they must not have been the type of Christian Gentiles Paul would have brought into the body of Christ. And Peter must have been writing to Christian Jews and Gentiles of a different sort than Paul wrote to, even though Paul wrote to them, too.

Nope, Paul was not saying those believers in Rome could be cut off.
Paul was teaching about Israel and how it worked with ISRAEL in chapter 11.

He was saying, as I've said many times, that those gentiles, like Cornelius, who were saved under Peter's Kingdom gospel could be cut off. Because they came in under the Jews. Peter's preaching, repent, be baptized, do works of righteousness. Those gentiles, like Cornelius, had to endure just like the rest of the Kingdom believers.

Are you seeing the contortions one has to make to divide the church like this? Is it a good idea to seek such a division in the church, if Paul and Peter were working hard NOT to have such division?

Yeah, and I'm watching your contortions with nearly every word you write.

Your claim is that everyone is saved the same way. Which way are you going to pick?
You give me your take on this.

 

[glorydaz]

One way to view this passage is as if Paul refers to the olive tree as representing the righteous position God intended for the whole nation of Israel. The living root remained after the unbelieving, faithless 'tree' was cut down, as Luke said with regard to the 3 years given the fruitless tree.

The wild branches, then, would be the little flock of messianic Jews who were now God's blessed remnant--all that remained of the tree and standing by faith (v. 20)--but who still had to persevere in faith lest they too be cut off.

Also see chapter 4 of Daniel.

Daniel might be over my head tonight, but the rest certainly fits. Better than my idea, I'm thinking.

 

[musterion]

The olive tree could again represent God's blessing, with the cut branches being apostate Israel BUT the wild branches grafted in being Gentile nations. All nations could now be blessed by the gospel but could fail in faithlessness and likewise be cut off.

I think I lean towards this interpretation because unbelieving nations can fail (end times especially?), but individual members in the Body of Christ cannot be cut off, so that reading is definitely out.

And Paul clearly states he speaking to gentiles, so I really don't see him speaking to the little flock.

 

[Derf]

1. Is correct

2. is trying to mush together the "little flock" of Kingdom believers with members of the body of Christ, so it misses the mark.

The church in Jerusalem or the little flock was made up of Jews (and proselytes) who accepted Christ as their Messiah. They were mostly Jews who added faith to obedience.

The church (first called CHRISTIANS in Antioch - Paul's GRACE believers) is comprised of ALL THOSE without distinction of race or nation and who believe Paul's gospel. These are members of the body of Christ.

Anyone who believed in Jesus ended up being called Christians, but there certainly was a difference.
They were separated by whether they followed the Kingdom gospel or the Gospel of Grace.
The kingdom believers followed the law....works of righteousness, and they had to endure.

God required more from His chosen people than He did from the gentiles who had never had Israel's God or His favor.



Nope, Paul was not saying those believers in Rome could be cut off.
Paul was teaching about Israel and how it worked with ISRAEL in chapter 11.

He was saying, as I've said many times, that those gentiles, like Cornelius, who were saved under Peter's Kingdom gospel could be cut off. Because they came in under the Jews. Peter's preaching, repent, be baptized, do works of righteousness. Those gentiles, like Cornelius, had to endure just like the rest of the Kingdom believers.

Yeah, and I'm watching your contortions with nearly every word you write.

Your claim is that everyone is saved the same way. Which way are you going to pick?
You give me your take on this.

All are saved by the death and resurrection of Christ. No one is saved any other way. Some may not have had full information about how it would work, but they are still saved the same way--because we aren't saved by our works, whether works of the law or works of any other kind. Abraham, nor Moses, nor David, nor Peter, nor Paul, nor Mary, were not saved by works. That's not to say the works were unimportant. And we are saved unto good works. The Israelites did not have to exhibit their works before they were led out of bondage, but God saved them from Egypt to become His people. Some refused, and died in the wilderness.

It makes no sense for God to save someone, and give them a place in His kingdom (earthly or heavenly) when they refuse to do what He says. But save them He does. So the place in the kingdom is reserved for those who, after being saved, submit to God in whatever way He asks them to. The place outside the kingdom is reserved for those, like Satan, who refuse to do His will.