These are NOT the same gospel

[Idolater]

That's the only thing that's being discussed? I don't think so.

I think we're discussing why Paul said whoever preached another gospel than what he preached, that person should be accursed. The claim that a person can lose their salvation (for any reason) is blasphemous where Paul's gospel is concerned. The gospel is the POWER OF GOD unto salvation. That is the Gospel of Grace.....not the gospel of the Kingdom.

For those folks who don't know what that means, they'd better figure this out. There is only ONE gospel that saves TODAY.

Unless I'm missing something nobody in this thread is saying that salvation can be lost. As far as I'm concerned it's a dispute about 'losing' salvation versus that it can be walked away from, or that it can be given away willfully. Not 'losing' it. I'm reading you and Musterion saying that even if someone chooses to stop believing in Christ and Paul's Gospel and walk away from faith, they are still saved. And that just doesn't make sense to some people, and there is a similarity between that view and Calvinism.

 

[Hoping]

You remain under the law and you don't even see it.

The Law is written in my heart.
That Law is the Law of Christ, ie., love God with all my might and love my neighbor as I love myself.
Is that not written in your heart?

 

[Hoping]

Clearly, you know NOTHING of the Gospel of Grace.

I know it has been around since the days of Noah..."But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord." (Gen 6:8)
Grace can be substituted for the word "love".
That has been preached since Gen 22:2.

You're a product of this world thinking water will save you.

It is the "world" that thinks they are saved before the day of judgement.

Very sad because the time is short.

I hope so, or else many more will suffer at the hands of unbelievers.

 

[glorydaz]

Unless I'm missing something nobody in this thread is saying that salvation can be lost. As far as I'm concerned it's a dispute about 'losing' salvation versus that it can be walked away from, or that it can be given away willfully. Not 'losing' it. I'm reading you and Musterion saying that even if someone chooses to stop believing in Christ and Paul's Gospel and walk away from faith, they are still saved. And that just doesn't make sense to some people, and there is a similarity between that view and Calvinism.

That's because too many people don't know what it means to be a new creation IN CHRIST JESUS.

 

[glorydaz]

I know it has been around since the days of Noah..."But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord." (Gen 6:8)

That has nothing to do with Paul's Gospel of Grace.

Grace can be substituted for the word "love".

Cool. You can just grace your neighbor and all will be good.

That has been preached since Gen 22:2.

It is the "world" that thinks they are saved before the day of judgement.

Egads.

I hope so, or else many more will suffer at the hands of unbelievers.

Hope all you want.

 

[Tambora]

Don't twist what I say because you're so anxious to prove salvation is not a free gift.

That's an outright lie.

What you fail to comprehend is once we have placed our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, we are HIS.
He begins His work in us, and HE is able to KEEP us.....bought and paid for, we are.

Were the apostles not His?
Were they not bought with His blood of the cross?
Was He not able to keep them?

 

[Tambora]

Someone can't be sealed unto the day of redemption and have that seal broken, unless God is a liar. Because that's what it would take for these people to be right--His seal would have to be broken, and Him lie about it.

John 6:27 KJV
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

Once (re)lost, always lost.

Wrong again.

Paul says one is broken off because because of unbelief and can be grafted back in if they return to belief.

 

[Tambora]

Tam and others are insisting it's their own doing.

Another lie.
Either you had the freewill to choose whom to place your believing faith in, or you take the Calvinist route and say you have no freewill choice.

This is why Paul says that anyone who preached any other gossip is accursed.
Adding anything to the Gospel of Grace absolutely must be accursed.

Then Peter is accursed in your estimation because you say he taught enduring faith plus works of the law.

We're seeing a first hand example of it here on this forum.

We're seeing a lot of condemnation from ultra-dispensationalist towards ones that believe it is only the Lord that is the Savior of the whole world.

 

[Derf]

Do you mean what He told us when He walked this earth? If that's what you mean, then NO.
Or do you mean what the Risen and Ascended Lord revealed to Paul, then YES.

And that right there is the difference. In fact, Paul told us (by divine inspiration) that we are not to know Jesus after the flesh.

2 Cor. 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

You can chew on that before we move forward. If you don't know our Lord Spiritually, you don't know Him at all.

That's what he told US! And we need to believe it. What he told Moses was different, and Moses and friends needed to believe THAT! What he told Abraham was different, still. What he told Noah was, again, different. Adam--different. But they were also the same--that God was going to resurrect them. These are not different ways to be saved, but different dispensations (ways of managing the dispensing) of the grace that ends and begins with the resurrection.

The underlying good news doesn't change, just the delivery system. These aren't different paths, but different descriptions of a single path.

 

[Derf]

Unless I'm missing something nobody in this thread is saying that salvation can be lost. As far as I'm concerned it's a dispute about 'losing' salvation versus that it can be walked away from, or that it can be given away willfully. Not 'losing' it. I'm reading you and Musterion saying that even if someone chooses to stop believing in Christ and Paul's Gospel and walk away from faith, they are still saved. And that just doesn't make sense to some people, and there is a similarity between that view and Calvinism.

I'd be willing to say salvation can be lost, as long as we understand what that salvation is--resurrection from death. Then our names can be blotted out of the book of life, leading to the second death.

 

[Tambora]

Do you mean what He told us when He walked this earth? If that's what you mean, then NO.

This is where I take an exception with dispensationalism.
I do not believe the teaching of Jesus while He walked the earth was only a temporary gospel that must be true for a short period of time and then not true for a long period of time, and then true again later on.

Dispensationalism teaches that if Israel had accepted Him as their Messiah (King Priest Prophet) then His earthly kingdom would have started at that time.

"Oh drat, I've been rejected so I guess I will have to switch to plan B and be crucified instead so I can rise from the dead and come back at a later time."​

I mean, come on folks. If the kingdom started at that time, then when was He supposed to be crucified to shed His sacrificial blood to atone for sin?

It (when He walked the earth at His first coming) was never the appointed time for the earthly kingdom to begin.
There was no on-again off-again gospel of salvation.

 

[Idolater]

I'd be willing to say salvation can be lost, as long as we understand what that salvation is--resurrection from death. Then our names can be blotted out of the book of life, leading to the second death.

And that would happen if you freely chose to stop believing, right? Is there some other way salvation could be lost while still continuing to believe in Christ?

 

[Tambora]

That's what he told US! And we need to believe it. What he told Moses was different, and Moses and friends needed to believe THAT! What he told Abraham was different, still. What he told Noah was, again, different. Adam--different. But they were also the same--that God was going to resurrect them. These are not different ways to be saved, but different dispensations (ways of managing the dispensing) of the grace that ends and begins with the resurrection.

The underlying good news doesn't change, just the delivery system. These aren't different paths, but different descriptions of a single path.

Beautifully said.

 

[Tambora]

And that would happen if you freely chose to stop believing, right?

Yes, unless one thinks there will be unbelievers in the new heaven and new earth.

Is there some other way salvation could be lost while still continuing to believe in Christ?

No, scripture says by unbelieving.

 

[glorydaz]

That's an outright lie.

No, it isn't.

Were the apostles not His?
Were they not bought with His blood of the cross?
Was He not able to keep them?

Were they new creatures?

Seriously, the comparison you just made there is childish.

 

[Tambora]

No, it isn't.


Were they new creatures?

Seriously, the comparison you just made there is childish.

Oh, so God didn't have the power to keep anyone until Paul came along.
Bah.

 

[glorydaz]

John 6:27 KJV
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

I hope you're not suggesting that "HIM" isn't speaking of the Son of man.

Wrong again.

Paul says one is broken off because because of unbelief and can be grafted back in if they return to belief.

You're still wrong on the "grafting" issue. Maybe you should study up on that.

 

[Tambora]

I hope you're not suggesting that "HIM" isn't speaking of the Son of man.

You think Jesus needed sealing?
Wow.

 

[Hoping]

That has nothing to do with Paul's Gospel of Grace.

I would think Noah in Gen 6, and later Lot in Gen 19, were grateful for God's grace/love.
Just as we are for the grace/love of God for all the gifts He has bestowed on us through Jesus Christ.

Cool. You can just grace your neighbor and all will be good.

Absolutely, and I may be the best neighbor he ever had.

Egads.
Hope all you want.

Hope and pray.
I especially pray for the children, every day.

Do the folks of your persuasion pray?

 

[Tambora]

You're still wrong on the "grafting" issue. Maybe you should study up on that.

Really? So you don't know that Paul said one can be cut off due to unbelief and grafted back in if they come back to belief?