These are NOT the same gospel

[Idolater]

Lay it on me.

I misspoke. It's just "shipwreck". 1st Timothy 1:18 " war a good warfare; 19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: 20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme."

 

[glorydaz]

lol so is it the New Covenant or the Old?

The New Covenant has not come yet. It was offered, but the Jews rejected their King when He came.

 

[glorydaz]

I misspoke. It's just "shipwreck". 1st Timothy 1:18 " war a good warfare; 19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: 20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme."

Good one. Paul was shipwrecked and that worked out really well.

However, in your example, the two unfaithfull brethren were delivered to Satan.....that they may LEARN not to blaspheme.
It's like when satan was allowed to torment Job for a season, even though Job did nothing wrong. (There was another purpose there.)

In other words, shipwrecked is not lost at sea.

 

[musterion]

Good one. Paul was shipwrecked and that worked out really well.

However, in your example, the two unfaithfull brethren were delivered to Satan.....that they may LEARN not to blaspheme.
It's like when satan was allowed to torment Job for a season, even though Job did nothing wrong. (There was another purpose there.)

In other words, shipwrecked is not lost at sea.

Exactly. Their case is similar the man in Corinth who the church allowed to fellowship with them while they knew he was fornicating with his own mother. Paul said he was to be put out of fellowship until he learned better (which he did). Paul never said the man was unsaved and so needed to hear and believe the saving gospel.

But a Catholic can't possibly understand it in any way other than "saved" people being lost. It was a waste of time me asking the question.

 

[musterion]

I believe that if you abandon faith in YHWH to have faith in another god then you ain't gonna make through the pearly gates.

What happened to cause you to believe what you now say? These are not the beliefs of the old Tambora.

 

[Derf]

of Peter's letters and the way he mentions gentiles as a third party is a big tell.

You mean like Paul does?

1 Corinthians 12:2 (KJV)
Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

So why can't Peter mean the same thing as Paul? Like so:
Ephesians 2:11 (KJV)
Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

 

[Derf]

Good one. Paul was shipwrecked and that worked out really well.

However, in your example, the two unfaithfull brethren were delivered to Satan.....that they may LEARN not to blaspheme.
It's like when satan was allowed to torment Job for a season, even though Job did nothing wrong. (There was another purpose there.)

In other words, shipwrecked is not lost at sea.

Not lost forever, perhaps, but also not certain: notice the "may".

 

[musterion]

You mean like Paul does?

1 Corinthians 12:2 (KJV)
Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

You don't see the point: after the agreement described in Galatians 2, gentiles were thenceforth Paul's exclusive mission field, not Peter's.

 

[Derf]

You don't see the point: after the agreement described in Galatians 2, gentiles were thenceforth Paul's exclusive mission field, not Peter's.

It's not that I don't see your point--I disagree with it. What you say may have been true for a time, but it did not continue that way, as evidenced in the scriptures.

 

[musterion]

What you say may have been true for a time, but it did not continue that way, as evidenced in the scriptures.

Then you should be able to prove it from Acts [post-chapter 15] and from the general epistles.

 

[Derf]

It's not that I don't see your point--I disagree with it. What you say may have been true for a time, but it did not continue that way, as evidenced in the scriptures.

@musterion
Here’s some:
In Acts, Peter tells us that God has called a people out from the gentiles:
Acts 15:14 (CSB)
“Simeon has reported how God first intervened to take from the Gentiles a people for his name.

Then he writes a letter to them, saying:
1 Peter 2:10 (CSB) Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

 

[Derf]

Then prove it from Acts [post-chapter 15] and from the general epistles.

Here’s more.
John wrote to gentiles, “Gaius” in 3 John, and a previous letter was refused by a gentile, “Diotrephes”, along with the people who brought it.
3 John 1:9 (CSB) I wrote something to the church, but Diotrephes, who loves to have first place among them, does not receive our authority.

And more.
Peter was obviously not following the Jewish separation laws that would have had to be a part of the kingdom gospel. Paul called him AND BARNABAS hypocrites for putting on a show of Jewish piety. You’ll have to admit that Barnabas was preaching Paul’s gospel with him, right? And that Peter was “deviating from the truth of the gospel”, right? “Deviating” means he had accepted it, then started to reject it in hypocrisy.
Galatians 2:12-14 (CSB) 12 For he regularly ate with the Gentiles before certain men came from James. However, when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, because he feared those from the circumcision party. 13 Then the rest of the Jews joined his hypocrisy, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that they were deviating from the truth of the gospel, I told Cephas in front of everyone, “If you, who are a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you compel Gentiles to live like Jews? ”

 

[musterion]

@musterion
Here’s some:
In Acts, Peter tells us that God has called a people out from the gentiles:
Acts 15:14 (CSB)
“Simeon has reported how God first intervened to take from the Gentiles a people for his name.

And that happened when?

Then he writes a letter to them, saying:
1 Peter 2:10 (CSB) Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Back up one verse and go forward two more, it's clear Peter is neither addressing nor speaking of gentiles but to Kingdom saints saved out of apostate Israel, obtaining the mercy Israel's leaders and people refused.

9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10which in time past not a people, but now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
11Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
12Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

FInally, look at whom Peter addressed this same letter at the opening of ch. 1: not gentiles but Jews dispersed among the gentiles.

What else you got?

 

[musterion]

And the Body of Christ is never once referred to as a priesthood by Paul.

 

[Derf]

And that happened when?



Back up one verse and go forward two more, it's clear Peter is neither addressing nor speaking of gentiles but to Kingdom saints saved out of apostate Israel, obtaining the mercy Israel's leaders and people refused.

9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10which in time past not a people, but now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
11Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
12Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

FInally, look at whom Peter addressed this same letter at the opening of ch. 1: not gentiles but Jews dispersed among the gentiles.

What else you got?

That’s circular. So is this:

And the Body of Christ is never once referred to as a priesthood by Paul.

 

[musterion]

You just proved why I've had you on ignore for years. You're a dishonest troll.

 

[Derf]

You just proved why I've had you on ignore for years. You're a dishonest troll.

And you've proven why you need me on ignore.

 

[glorydaz]

Not lost forever, perhaps, but also not certain: notice the "may".

Right, they may learn not to blaspheme.
They may not learn, but that doesn't mean they would lose their salvation.
It just means that they will be hounded by satan with trials and tribulation.

 

[Derf]

Right, they may learn not to blaspheme.
They may not learn, but that doesn't mean they would lose their salvation.
It just means that they will be hounded by satan with trials and tribulation.

And you think there will be blasphemers in heaven?

2 Timothy 3:2 (KJV) For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

2 Timothy 3:5 (KJV) Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

2 Timothy 3:8 (KJV) Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

 

[glorydaz]

And you think there will be blasphemers in heaven?

2 Timothy 3:2 (KJV) For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

2 Timothy 3:5 (KJV) Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

2 Timothy 3:8 (KJV) Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

Of course. There will all kinds of reprobates in heaven who have had ALL THEIR SINS forgiven.

1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.