Hasan_ibn_Sabah
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Don't confuse forgiveness with legal clemency, we forgive sinners, but crimes must be payed for. Its sinful to let a criminal continue in their acts against the social order.
The Wisdom of "Eye for an eye" theology
- Thread starter Ecumenicist
- Start date
I agree, Hasan, but what of things that are not punishable, like lying?
Say a poster constantly falsely accuses another of child molestation.
Should the false accuser be false accused of something as well, or be required to see how their actions effected the other, or what?
I'm still trying to understand the Eye for an Eye philosophy from a practical sense.
Say a poster constantly falsely accuses another of child molestation.
Should the false accuser be false accused of something as well, or be required to see how their actions effected the other, or what?
I'm still trying to understand the Eye for an Eye philosophy from a practical sense.
Ecumenicist
New member
beanieboy said:
You forgive and you are not burdened with hatred and vengence coloring your
soul, and that's a good thing.
But, if the mugger were caught and you were called to witness, you do so
honestly, so he stops hurting people. And, given the "safe" opportunity, you
tell him honestly how his behavior has affected your life.
As I said before, in this day and age we are not called to inflict physical pain,
but we rely on the Holy Spirit to convict.
Someday he'll see the pain he has caused you and others, and he'll repent.
If you steal money from your roommate, you try to understand the pain you've
caused him. Did he miss his rent payment? Did he have to work overtime
to compensate? More devastatingly, was his trust in you sacrificed? How
about his ability to trust in general?
Of course you try to restore things with him, perhaps by paying back double, but
he may or may not accept, given the emotional devastation you may have caused
to him and your relationship, that's probably a much larger mountain to
overcome.
If and when you really get the far reaching consequences your sins have
caused against him, and even more devastatingly, against yourself, for I
truley believe that with every sin, the impact on the sinner has more far
reaching consequences, if you get all this and feel the deep contrition, brokenness
associated with your actions, you have received the conviction of the Holy
Spirit. And with that realization of truth and judgement, you find your ticket
to repentence, forgiveness, and freedom.
Dave
Ecumenicist
New member
BB,
Remember that when Jesus was falsly accused, He said nothing in reply, because He
knew there was no justice available. Instead He relied on the Holy Spirit to witness
on His behalf. And remember how the Holy Spirit did so, through the witness of others,
Roman soldiers, even Pilate, saying "this is an innocent person."
You're not a child molester, but a child of God, worthy of love and respect and dignity,
like all children of God.
Dave
Remember that when Jesus was falsly accused, He said nothing in reply, because He
knew there was no justice available. Instead He relied on the Holy Spirit to witness
on His behalf. And remember how the Holy Spirit did so, through the witness of others,
Roman soldiers, even Pilate, saying "this is an innocent person."
You're not a child molester, but a child of God, worthy of love and respect and dignity,
like all children of God.
Dave
Thanks, Dave. Both posts are very valued.
And of the first one, I often realize that although it happened 2 years ago, and the scar healed surprisingly well, it stays with you, and that forgiveness means you have to work your weigh through a really long tunnel to get through to the other side.
Humble thanks.
And of the first one, I often realize that although it happened 2 years ago, and the scar healed surprisingly well, it stays with you, and that forgiveness means you have to work your weigh through a really long tunnel to get through to the other side.
Humble thanks.
Ecumenicist
New member
beanieboy said:
Remember that in the resurrection, Jesus continued to bear the scars of
the Crucifixion. Long after the burden of anger and pain is left behind,
our scars remain to bear witness to our experience, and our
wisdom which stems from that experience.
God bless BB,
Dave
Rimi said:
How about forgiving them regardless, telling the offender that they hurt you and then learning from the mistake?
I put my arm in the lion cage.
The lion bites my arm off.
It hurts.
I forgive the lion.
I explain to him that my arm hurts.
Dont put your other arm in the cage.
Its called being the bigger man. Do you really mean that just because somebody else fails to repent I have to keep rebutting him....too much hard work. Forgive and move on.
aikido7 said:
You forgot something.
Luke 17:3-4 [jesus]"Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him."[/jesus]
Ecumenicist
New member
Frank Ernest said:
Hi Frank,
Lets look at this closely. The first thing to notice is that this applies to brothers,
fellow disciples, fellow Christians.
In this regard, we are absolutely called to exhort, rebuke, encourage our Christian
brothers and sisters to not sin, and remain strong in the faith. All scripture agrees
with this.
Now the second thing to ask is, who is Jesus directing this to? Well, it says in Luke 17-1
that He's addressing the disciples as a group. Based on this, one may ask the
question, is Jesus telling them how to act as individuals in relationship with one
another, or as a group, a Church? From the group perspective, this would seem to
be an instruction answering the question, if a member of the Church sins, how should it
be handled by the group?
Now think about the Sermon on the Mount. It is addressed to everyone, not just the
disciples, not just the church, and it describes a code / conduct for personal behavior.
In that code, Jesus speaks of forgiving enemies, turning the other cheek, all
unconditionally.
The challenge continues to be to find an understanding of scripture that makes sense
for all the scripture we are given. For Christ to say "forgive unconditionally" in
Matthew, but say "forgive conditionally" in Luke doesn't make sense. At this juncture,
many people throw up their hands, choose one scripture over another, or give up on
scripture altogether. But for the faithful, the diligent, continuing to struggle with
the scripture "as is," digging deeper, yields deeper truths.
If in Matthew Jesus is saying "as individuals, forgive unconditionally," but in Luke
Jesus is saying "as a Church, care for one another, nurture one another, protect one
another, rebuke out of love and then with repentence forgive, but don't tolerate sin within
the group," this seems more consistant, with Matthew, Luke, and with Paul's writings.
Dave
Chileice
New member
Dave Miller said:
You are right on here, Dave. I believe that IS where Jesus is coming from in the Luke context. It does fit with the rest of scripture which is why it is so important not to take verses out of context (one of my peeves if you follow my posts) and why it is important to interpret scripture by scripture and through the finished work of Christ on the cross of Calvary. Many weird cultic groups have deveolped over the years by pulling out one or two favourite verses and transforming them into the watchword for their group. They exclude other scripture that doesn't go along with their pet scripture and they deviate from the historical Christian message in the process. Once again, nice post.
The most profound message of divine forgiveness is embedded in Jesus' own parabolic story we have come to know as "The Prodigal Son." The son does not "repent" but instead "comes to himself."
The story is found only in Luke, whose concern for all things repentant is made abundantly clear throughout the rest of his gospel. So why did he neglect that fact in his telling of this complex parable? Could it be that the story goes back to the historical Jesus?
There is much, much more in the parable than we have been led to believe.
(my italics)
The story is found only in Luke, whose concern for all things repentant is made abundantly clear throughout the rest of his gospel. So why did he neglect that fact in his telling of this complex parable? Could it be that the story goes back to the historical Jesus?
There is much, much more in the parable than we have been led to believe.
(my italics)
justchristian
New member
Is it just me but isnt the repenting turning from his life as a slave and coming home?
"When he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.' 20So he got up and went to his father. "
You are able to allow meaning of the specific word "repent" to go beyond its literal boundaries. That is commendable and necessary.justchristian said:
As to the structure of the parable itself, Luke uses the word "repent" quite often in his gospel; a concordance might even show Luke uses the word most often. My observation is that substituting "coming to himself" is a curious substitute in the context of his gospel.
"Repent" actually comes from the Greek metanoia which describes a complete transformation of being--a "turning away" from the past. It is a much more revolutionary concept than merely "having regrets and saying you are sorry."
The church's spin on repentance seems to emphasize forced admission before a sound thrashing. I believe it is much more than that. We have become too accustomed to our take on Jesus rather than Jesus himself.
Hasan_ibn_Sabah
New member
aikido7 said:
Thats why the forgiveness of other is preresequite to repentance and accepting the forgiveness of God, one must wipe the slate clean and turn away from your present course of action before embarking on a new life.
Chileice said:
Luke 13:2-5 "And Jesus answering said unto them, [jesus]Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.[/jesus]"