The Wisdom of "Eye for an eye" theology

[wickwoman]

SOTK,
Can you see the difference? It's subtle, but important, I think.

I see it. It's an excellent example. You take responsibility for yourself alone. And do not run his life in any manner except to the extent his behavior infringes on your happiness. And this is the way all should behave towards one another. Otherwise, keeping out of other's business. If we all understood this, then we would see our own business is plenty to keep us busy. But many who would like to tell others how to behave have total chaos in their own lives and they prefer to run other people's lives than manage their own.

 

[wickwoman]

Jesus was merciful to everyone, while we were his enemies he died for us all.

I am not the enemy of anyone.

 

[Chileice]

You reeeeeally need to study Revelations. Don't have Scriptures right in front of me, but I think it's Chapter 6 wherein the saints under the altar cry out for vengeance, and by implication not mercy. Please read this. Then consider. . . there are are in Heaven! In the very presence of God Almighty!! And what are they doing? What are they saying?? Go on! Read it! OK, now, read a little further. Read God's reaction. He does not rebuke them! He does not reap what they have sown, calling down curses of no mercy on them! He calms them down, hushes them, and assures them that in a little while more He will repay! He'll get the bad guys who killed them! . . . . if you read this and still don't get it, then you're hopeless. You are lacking in wisdom, joy and discernment. Your warning to me is of absolutely NO value because you do not speak with knowledge or authority. If you still don't get it with those verses in Revelation, then you are a fool.

I think you have shown what kind of Christian you are. I am quite sure Hasan has a handle on the scriptures. I know I do. Yet you chose to call us fools for wanting what Jesus came for: mercy, grace and forgiveness. You are vengeful and if you think your vegeful attitude glorifies your god, your god is not the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Chileice]

By the way, Where's Dave Miller? He gets us all off on this rather interesting topic and then disappears. Anybody heard from him lately?

 

[billwald]

A crime not associated with sin? Marijuana used by dying people.

 

[Ecumenicist]

I'm back, thanx for asking Chil. I'll be out for a week + starting Friday, doing our
annual "northern arc" visiting relatives in Mich, Wis, and Ind...

Lots of good "justice," "rebuke," and "forgiveness" discussions going on.

As always, we're lobbing scripture at each other, and trying to defend our positions
based on "our" fav scriptures. What we're not doing is looking for understanding that
accommodates "all" scripture.

Demand mercy and not sacrifice, this is scriptural. Rebuke is scriptural as well. So is
the story of the good Samaritan. So is Jesus forgiving those who were nailing Him to
the Cross. So is "love your enemies," So is "eye for an eye." Hence this discussion.

I proposed a scenario where "eye for an eye" fits with the "mercy and not sacrifice,"
picture of God presented through Christ. If the sacrifice of an eye is required of the
offender such that the offender understands the suffering that he / she causes
another, this scenario seems to fit all scripture.

Should we rebuke, such that those that hurt us, offend us, hurt others, sin, are made
aware of the hurt they are causing themselves and others? Absolutely.

If someone offends me, offense is a burden I carry. Forgiving helps me to unburden
myself. Then, rebuking does not serve to make me feel better, I don't turn
to vengence to resolve my issues. If I forgive first, then rebuke is left solely for the
purpose of helping the offender understand how (s)he is hurting (her)himself and others.
And that's what its meant for. Not a grudge to carry for a lifetime, but a loving
admonision to stop hurting self and others, to stop sinning.

Hey, I'm not perfect, when I'm hurt, I carry grudges for awhile. Sometimes I lash back
in hurt and anger as well. But its my experience that when I do this, it never serves
to heal, it only makes things worse.

However, when I can let the hurt go, when I can forgive, then I can rationally tell an
offender how they hurt me, and how they are hurting themselves, then there is a chance
for understanding, a chance for healing.

If we seperate the concepts of forgiveness and rebuke, we can find understanding
which accomodates all scripture. Rebuke offerred in love is meant to help the offender,
rebuke offerred out of defensiveness just furthers sin, 2 wrongs don't make anything
right...

Dave

 

[Chileice]

I'm back, thanx for asking Chil. I'll be out for a week + starting Friday, doing our
annual "northern arc" visiting relatives in Mich, Wis, and Ind...

Lots of good "justice," "rebuke," and "forgiveness" discussions going on.

As always, we're lobbing scripture at each other, and trying to defend our positions
based on "our" fav scriptures. What we're not doing is looking for understanding that
accommodates "all" scripture.

Demand mercy and not sacrifice, this is scriptural. Rebuke is scriptural as well. So is
the story of the good Samaritan. So is Jesus forgiving those who were nailing Him to
the Cross. So is "love your enemies," So is "eye for an eye." Hence this discussion.

I proposed a scenario where "eye for an eye" fits with the "mercy and not sacrifice,"
picture of God presented through Christ. If the sacrifice of an eye is required of the
offender such that the offender understands the suffering that he / she causes
another, this scenario seems to fit all scripture.

Should we rebuke, such that those that hurt us, offend us, hurt others, sin, are made
aware of the hurt they are causing themselves and others? Absolutely.

If someone offends me, offense is a burden I carry. Forgiving helps me to unburden
myself. Then, rebuking does not serve to make me feel better, I don't turn
to vengence to resolve my issues. If I forgive first, then rebuke is left solely for the
purpose of helping the offender understand how (s)he is hurting (her)himself and others.
And that's what its meant for. Not a grudge to carry for a lifetime, but a loving
admonision to stop hurting self and others, to stop sinning.

Hey, I'm not perfect, when I'm hurt, I carry grudges for awhile. Sometimes I lash back
in hurt and anger as well. But its my experience that when I do this, it never serves
to heal, it only makes things worse.

However, when I can let the hurt go, when I can forgive, then I can rationally tell an
offender how they hurt me, and how they are hurting themselves, then there is a chance
for understanding, a chance for healing.

If we seperate the concepts of forgiveness and rebuke, we can find understanding
which accomodates all scripture. Rebuke offerred in love is meant to help the offender,
rebuke offerred out of defensiveness just furthers sin, 2 wrongs don't make anything
right...

Dave

Thanks Dave. Glad you are still around. Good word.

 

[Ecumenicist]

I am not the enemy of anyone.

Not sure how you can say this, since its others who define whether we
are their enemies or not.

You can say that you don't consider Jesus Christ, or anyone else an
enemy, but that doesn't mean others might not consider you an enemy,
whether you are aware of it or not.

Dave

 

[Hasan_ibn_Sabah]

You reeeeeally need to study Revelations. Don't have Scriptures right in front of me, but I think it's Chapter 6 wherein the saints under the altar cry out for vengeance, and by implication not mercy. Please read this. Then consider. . . there are are in Heaven! In the very presence of God Almighty!! And what are they doing? What are they saying?? Go on! Read it! OK, now, read a little further. Read God's reaction. He does not rebuke them! He does not reap what they have sown, calling down curses of no mercy on them! He calms them down, hushes them, and assures them that in a little while more He will repay! He'll get the bad guys who killed them! . . . . if you read this and still don't get it, then you're hopeless. You are lacking in wisdom, joy and discernment. Your warning to me is of absolutely NO value because you do not speak with knowledge or authority. If you still don't get it with those verses in Revelation, then you are a fool.

You are going to take a passage about Christian matyrs (which in itself is a reference to the Cain and Abel story) and you are going to apply it to yourself? So are you now a matyr? You suffering presecution in the United States?

Christian matyrdom is not a subject one should take lightly, these people have suffered in ways that none of know or want to know, and yet you dare take something sacred and profane it with your own personal vendettas, your own bitterness - asking others to drink from the same cup of bitterness and wrath you do.

You want to justify your hatred by making believe that God justifies your hatred, that what you are wrathful against is what God is wrathful against, That God is going to take vengence against everyone you have something personal against. Like God is you own personal heavenly hitman. I admonish you to think again.

This is a case of you taking your own personal views and ascribing them to God - it is idolatry.

Like Huxley once wrote:
"A long religious training had not abolished or even mitigated his self-love; it had served only to provide the ego with a theological alibi. The untutored egoist merely wants what he wants. Give him a theological education, and it becomes obvious to him, it becomes axiomatic, that what he wants is what God wants."

I believe this is the case with you.

 

[Rimi]

Chileice said:

I think you have shown what kind of Christian you are.

Nicest thing anyone's said to me today. Thanks.

I am quite sure Hasan has a handle on the scriptures. I know I do. Yet you chose to call us fools for wanting what Jesus came for: mercy, grace and forgiveness.

No, neither of you has a clue. Oh, and Jesus said he came to fulfill the Law. You know, the law that has that pesky death penalty in it and all.

You are vengeful and if you think your vegeful attitude glorifies your god, your god is not the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Sorry, didn't know the word fool offended you. You're both booger eating morons. Anything I can do to help, ya know!

 

[Rimi]

Then, rebuking does not serve to make me feel better, I don't turn
to vengence to resolve my issues. If I forgive first, then rebuke is left solely for the
purpose of helping the offender understand how (s)he is hurting (her)himself and others.
And that's what its meant for. Not a grudge to carry for a lifetime, but a loving
admonision to stop hurting self and others, to stop sinning.

Rebuking is for letting that person know that they hurt you.
IF they respond with sorrow and repentence, then you can forgive.

 

[Rimi]

You are going to take a passage about Christian matyrs (which in itself is a reference to the Cain and Abel story) and you are going to apply it to yourself? So are you now a matyr? You suffering presecution in the United States?

Christian matyrdom is not a subject one should take lightly, these people have suffered in ways that none of know or want to know, and yet you dare take something sacred and profane it with your own personal vendettas, your own bitterness - asking others to drink from the same cup of bitterness and wrath you do.

You want to justify your hatred by making believe that God justifies your hatred, that what you are wrathful against is what God is wrathful against, That God is going to take vengence against everyone you have something personal against. Like God is you own personal heavenly hitman. I admonish you to think again.

This is a case of you taking your own personal views and ascribing them to God - it is idolatry.

Like Huxley once wrote:
"A long religious training had not abolished or even mitigated his self-love; it had served only to provide the ego with a theological alibi. The untutored egoist merely wants what he wants. Give him a theological education, and it becomes obvious to him, it becomes axiomatic, that what he wants is what God wants."

I believe this is the case with you.

Could you put the bong down long enough to make some freakin sense? When did Cain and Abel get brought in?? No, I'm not a martyr, but a saint as are all followers of Christ. WHICH you would know if you'd but use that brain God gave you and read the Scriptures. You reeeeally should refrain from admonishing because you have no authority and you're just not very good at it. :loser:

 

[Ecumenicist]

Sorry, didn't know the word fool offended you. You're both booger eating morons. Anything I can do to help, ya know!

:chuckle:

I think the King James uses "booger munching" morons.

:crackup:

 

[Rimi]

Can't never get the King's English just right.

 

[beanieboy]

Technically, It's "moron who doth muncheth on thine own boogers."

 

[Ecumenicist]

:chuckle:

I think the King James uses "booger munching" morons.

:crackup:

In keeping with the thread theme, perhaps you could munch some boogers
yourself and experience the pain you've caused others

Let us know how it all comes out (collective groan)


Dave

 

[Rimi]

Mixing body fluids now, bean?

 

[Ecumenicist]

Technically, It's "moron who doth muncheth on thine own boogers."

Yeah, verily...

 

[beanieboy]

So, Dave - i mentioned that I got mugged. It was pretty violent.
I forgive, and the mugger does what?
I suppose that they have to come to some conclusion of being sorry, of understanding what I did, but how does that happen when it is a stranger crime? (I don't think he was ever caught, but it happened to someone else an hour earlier.)

So, now what?

or better - were I to wrong someone, what should I do, other than ask forgiveness?
How does the Eye for an Eye theory of yours work out?
Let's say that I stole money from a roommate.
Now what?

 

[Rimi]

Or say you molested someone?