The Wisdom of "Eye for an eye" theology

[Hasan_ibn_Sabah]

Rimi - so according to you, I am supposed to wait until someone who as wronged me to repent, so that I may forgive them. But Jesus tells us when we are praying, if we hold anything against anyone we should forgive them, so that our Father may forgive us.

So according to your beliefs, I have to wait for all my enemies to repent, before I can repent and pray to God.

I don't think so.

 

[Rimi]

No, Hasan. According to Jesus in Luke 17:3. Problem with this, take it to Him.

You do not need to wait for your enemies to repent before you repent of your own sins and ask God for forgiveness. Maybe you do if you are still under the law. I am not.

 

[julie21]

The words of Christ on the cross to His Father;
"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."
Did that mean;
"Father forgive them, but only if they repent first. For they know not what they do."?
Interested in someone giving their idea on this. I am reading this thread with great interest.

 

[SOTK]

The words of Christ on the cross to His Father;
"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."
Did that mean;
"Father forgive them, but only if they repent first. For they know not what they do."?
Interested in someone giving their idea on this. I am reading this thread with great interest.

Personally, I don't think the scripture you cited above has anything to do with Biblical forgiveness. That Scripture purely had to do with Jesus asking God to forgive them for not realizing that they were killing God. I think we would be reading too much into it to take it any farther than that.

I think we should ask for forgiveness whenever we sin. If we have sinned against our brother, we need to ask for God's forgiveness and then for our brother's forgiveness. However, I do think it's Biblical to not forgive our brother for having sinned against us if our brother remains unrepentant. I think it's unloving to forgive someone who remains in their sin. What is that teaching your brother?

Look at it this way: If your son or daughter disobeyed you, which is clearly sin, would you just overlook this willfull disobedience and forgive them for it? Or, would you confront their sin, show them how what they did was sin and that it harmed you, and tell them that they needed to ask for your forgiveness?

 

[Chileice]

No, Hasan. According to Jesus in Luke 17:3. Problem with this, take it to Him.

You do not need to wait for your enemies to repent before you repent of your own sins and ask God for forgiveness. Maybe you do if you are still under the law. I am not.

Rimi,
But you are not talking about forgiveness here. Hasan is talking about forgiveness of the other person and you are talking about getting your own forgiveness from God. I really think you learned some things very backward from someone or you are trying to justify grudges you are wanting to hold on to (I hope not).

You said,
"But we also don't want to run around forgiving those who don't give a rip,"

You feel it is non-biblical to forgive unless the person truly repents. Then you will never forgive. How can you forgive if the one who offended you doesn't repent (according to you)? And how can you KNOW he/she has repented if you are not the Holy Spirit? Are you going to wait 3 days, 3 months, 3 years and see if they do the same thing again? It kind of makes Jesus' talk with Peter meaningless. Jesus says forgive him 490 times. Do you think a person is TRULY repentant if we have to forgive him 490 times for the same stupid thing?

You asked,
"Also, could you or someone who thinks like you explain how forgiving someone who's not repentent is for the benefit of the forgiver."

The benefit is that the offender no longer holds power over me... even if he/she wants to. I see this all the time in the small towns where I work. Someone did something wrong to someone's family member so there is a conscious effort made to make sure that unrepentant so and so pays for their transgression. So they ignore the person on the street, gossip about them at the beauty parlour, etc., etc. Well that person holds all kinds of power over the offended person becacause the offended person is not free to do and say and go where they want for fear of appearing to approve the other person. But once a person forgives the other person... even if the other person doesn't want the forgiveness, the forgiver has ALL the power. He can go where he wants do what he wants and even speak well of the offender. The offender can hardly stand this and often (usually after trying to get the offended person to hate them again) they actually do repent.

So if you Don't forgive, you give the offender power in your life. And the Bible is clear that if we want to be forgiven we must likewise forgive.
Matthew 6 seems pretty clear:
12And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
13And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.[c]
14"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

I hope you will forgive. You will really like the freedom.

 

[Chileice]

The words of Christ on the cross to His Father;
"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."
Did that mean;
"Father forgive them, but only if they repent first. For they know not what they do."?
Interested in someone giving their idea on this. I am reading this thread with great interest.

Julie, you are right on. Jesus was always willing to forgive. Now those who were in the audience still needed to repent and as we see in Acts, many of them did. Many became followers of the Lord. There was actually a whole thread on this verse not too long ago. Maybe you can search for it and read it. It was an interesting thread. I'm not sure why it died out so soon.

 

[Chileice]

Personally, I don't think the scripture you cited above has anything to do with Biblical forgiveness. That Scripture purely had to do with Jesus asking God to forgive them for not realizing that they were killing God. I think we would be reading too much into it to take it any farther than that.

I think we should ask for forgiveness whenever we sin. If we have sinned against our brother, we need to ask for God's forgiveness and then for our brother's forgiveness. However, I do think it's Biblical to not forgive our brother for having sinned against us if our brother remains unrepentant. I think it's unloving to forgive someone who remains in their sin. What is that teaching your brother?

Look at it this way: If your son or daughter disobeyed you, which is clearly sin, would you just overlook this willfull disobedience and forgive them for it? Or, would you confront their sin, show them how what they did was sin and that it harmed you, and tell them that they needed to ask for your forgiveness?

SOTK, I often find your posts thoughtful and interesting. But I guess I see in this post what I see in Rimi's. Unforgiven sin leads to more sin. It can not help but lead to some type of grudge or bitterness. If I do not forgive the one who has wronged me, how will he/she know that he has wronged me? Usually we make the displeasure known by avoiding them, shunning them, closing them out. That in itself is unChrist-like behaviour and exacerbates the sin.

Overlook and forgive are two very different things. Overlook (disculpar en español) and forgive (perdonar) are totally different concepts. In love we do confront the problem, but I can still choose to treat that person with love and respect "in spite of their sin". That is forgiveness. Overlooking just pretends they have never sinned. Could you forgive your homosexual daughter? (This is a hypothetical question) But this is a question many Christians face. Can you forgive a mate who lusts after someone else? Can we do the hard forgiveness or just the easy stuff? Forgiveness requires guts and it requires a tight relationship with the ONE who has forgiven me... even of the tough stuff.

 

[Nineveh]

If I do not forgive the one who has wronged me, how will he/she know that he has wronged me?

By following the first part of Jesus's advice? "If your brother sins, rebuke him,...".

 

[Rimi]

Chileice wrote:

But you are not talking about forgiveness here. Hasan is talking about forgiveness of the other person and you are talking about getting your own forgiveness from God. I really think you learned some things very backward from someone or you are trying to justify grudges you are wanting to hold on to (I hope not).

Yes, I am talking about forgiveness. What I've learned is stated clearly in Scriptures. Ask yourself this:

1. Why does God say vengeance is His, so do not repay? If I'm to forgive those who abuse me or rape me or kill me, why would God say He'd avenge me? hmmm?

2. Why does not God rebuke the saints under the alter in Revelations when they cry out for vengeance? They're saints and want Him to take care of business! So much for forgiveness.

You said,
"But we also don't want to run around forgiving those who don't give a rip,"

You feel it is non-biblical to forgive unless the person truly repents. Then you will never forgive. How can you forgive if the one who offended you doesn't repent (according to you)? And how can you KNOW he/she has repented if you are not the Holy Spirit? Are you going to wait 3 days, 3 months, 3 years and see if they do the same thing again? It kind of makes Jesus' talk with Peter meaningless. Jesus says forgive him 490 times. Do you think a person is TRULY repentant if we have to forgive him 490 times for the same stupid thing?

Correct, I will not forgive someone who has hurt me and thumbs his nose at what he's done. It would be mocking the whole concept of forgiveness. I can know only by how they present themselves. I've had people say they're sorry, but find that they lied. At the time I forgave. What! Am I to forgive them for mocking me and lying right to my face as well!? Even God needs proof of a contrite heart. Now, He can see the heart, I can't. So, here is some wisdom: wait to see how they back up their claims of repentence. God's not stupid, He knows that we are not supernatural. He understands the need for evidence . . . why, He left them all over the place so we can believe in Him! To be forgiven for no act of repentence the offenders now know that forgiveness means nothing and they can do as they please. When did Jesus forgive Peter 490 times??

You asked,
"Also, could you or someone who thinks like you explain how forgiving someone who's not repentent is for the benefit of the forgiver."

The benefit is that the offender no longer holds power over me... even if he/she wants to. I see this all the time in the small towns where I work. Someone did something wrong to someone's family member so there is a conscious effort made to make sure that unrepentant so and so pays for their transgression. So they ignore the person on the street, gossip about them at the beauty parlour, etc., etc. Well that person holds all kinds of power over the offended person becacause the offended person is not free to do and say and go where they want for fear of appearing to approve the other person. But once a person forgives the other person... even if the other person doesn't want the forgiveness, the forgiver has ALL the power. He can go where he wants do what he wants and even speak well of the offender. The offender can hardly stand this and often (usually after trying to get the offended person to hate them again) they actually do repent.

So, if my family member is raped, I shouldn't seek to have the rapist brought to justice. You are a fool. You would let the rapist go free, all forgiven. And the rapist is cleared to rape again because you have no affect on this pig. You would let a murderer murder again. A pedophile destroy little lives. But, hey, he has no "power" over you, so it's OK. You feel better because you've forgiven. If it feels good, do it? You'd be no better than the offender.

So if you Don't forgive, you give the offender power in your life. And the Bible is clear that if we want to be forgiven we must likewise forgive.

Matthew 6 seems pretty clear:
12And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
13And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.[c]
14"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Luke 17:3 is pretty clear too, but you don't see to like that one. But let's dissect Mt6 a bit . . . "forgive us our debts AS we forgive our debtors . . ."

HOW does God forgive us? What's the criteria for receiving forgiveness from God?

I hope you will forgive. You will really like the freedom.

I'll get personal with you here. I was molested as a child. I'd always been taught to forgiveforgiveforgive, much as you espouse here. This filth went on to molest countless others, lives destroyed. I felt responsible for the ones I found out about, because hey I'd forgiven him and this should've helped him out some way. He had control over me by way of guilt. But, hey, I forgive him! For everything because that's what I'd been taught! Forgive! Forgive! Forgive! Didn't make sense then when I was asked to take him to court, which I did, since if I'd forgiven him how could I possibly hold him accountable??? Very confusing. I mean, I'd been taught that forgiveness is a clean slate! I felt guilt over going to court for crying out loud! When I became a Christian, and read the Word of God, it all became clear. He's not forgiven because he's not repentent. This devil murdered souls. I should have been asking, crying for vengeance from a holy and awesome God. And THAT, Chileice, set me free. I am free in Jesus Christ. HE is my rest. HE is my comfort. And I trust that one day HE will avenge me. Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ ALONE, is my freedom. How I wish you had such freedom as do I.

 

[Rimi]

Julie, you are right on. Jesus was always willing to forgive. Now those who were in the audience still needed to repent and as we see in Acts, many of them did. Many became followers of the Lord. There was actually a whole thread on this verse not too long ago. Maybe you can search for it and read it. It was an interesting thread. I'm not sure why it died out so soon.

YES! Jesus was always WILLING . . . BUT he didn't do it automatically, with nothing required of the offender. I cannot believe you wrote this and still don't see this!

 

[Rimi]

Chileice wrote:

SOTK, I often find your posts thoughtful and interesting. But I guess I see in this post what I see in Rimi's. Unforgiven sin leads to more sin. It can not help but lead to some type of grudge or bitterness. If I do not forgive the one who has wronged me, how will he/she know that he has wronged me? Usually we make the displeasure known by avoiding them, shunning them, closing them out. That in itself is unChrist-like behaviour and exacerbates the sin.

Forgive me, SOTK, for cutting in, but I just couldn't stand by. . . . Chileice, the offender will know they sinned against you WHEN YOU REBUKE THEM!! Tell me: Did you know you'd sinned against God when He rebuked you with the truth of the Law or when He forgave you?? Yes, not rebuking and confronting sin is unChristlike.

Overlook and forgive are two very different things. Overlook (disculpar en español) and forgive (perdonar) are totally different concepts. In love we do confront the problem, but I can still choose to treat that person with love and respect "in spite of their sin".

How did Jesus treat Herod?

That is forgiveness. Overlooking just pretends they have never sinned.

How did Jesus treat Herod?

Could you forgive your homosexual daughter? (This is a hypothetical question) But this is a question many Christians face. Can you forgive a mate who lusts after someone else? Can we do the hard forgiveness or just the easy stuff? Forgiveness requires guts and it requires a tight relationship with the ONE who has forgiven me... even of the tough stuff.

If one repents (whether rebuked or not) then there is time and place for forgiveness. Ya know, like God does. Why did Jesus say to be perfect like our Father in Heaven? Oh, and I see now that you're talking about your OWN forgiveness. Your own forgiveness is based on your repentence. Yet you don't set the same standard for others? This makes no sense.

 

[PureX]

I think it's odd that people believe their "rebuke" actually means something to anyone but themselves.

If I believe that the effect my actions had on you were justified, and you don't agree so you "rebuke" me for them, what will I care? And so you won't forgive me. What will I care? You have decided for yourself what you think is right and wrong. Other people have decided for themselves what they think is right and wrong. And there will inevitably be disagreement about these. My point is that someone you would call an "unrepentant sinner" isn't going to care at all about your "rebukes" or your lack of forgiveness. So the only person you're effecting by holding on to your righteous indignation is yourself. The "sinner" will either continue to sin, or he won't, depending on his own ideas about what's right and wrong. And your unforgiveness and rebukes have nothing to do with it. We aren't in charge of the hearts and minds of others, and we never will be.

Forgiveness is not a tool we use to control manipulate other people. It's something we do for ourselves, to keep peace within ourselves and between ourselves and God.

 

[Rimi]

I think it's odd that people believe their "rebuke" actually means something to anyone but themselves.

If I believe that the effect my actions had on you were justified, and you don't agree so you "rebuke" me for them, what will I care? And so you won't forgive me. What will I care? You have decided for yourself what you think is right and wrong. Other people have decided for themselves what they think is right and wrong. And there will inevitably be disagreement about these. My point is that someone you would call an "unrepentant sinner" isn't going to care at all about your "rebukes" or your lack of forgiveness. So the only person you're effecting by holding on to your righteous indignation is yourself. The "sinner" will either continue to sin, or he won't, depending on his own ideas about what's right and wrong. And your unforgiveness and rebukes have nothing to do with it. We aren't in charge of the hearts and minds of others, and we never will be.

Forgiveness is not a tool we use to control manipulate other people. It's something we do for ourselves, to keep peace within ourselves and between ourselves and God.

So, forgiveness is something God does for Himself?? Just nutty.

 

[Rimi]

Purex wrong:

Forgiveness is not a tool we use to control manipulate other people.

That is not what forgiveness is for. Repentence and forgiveness are because they are the right thing to do in the right time they are done (repentence first, then forgiveness). You've already indicated that it probably wouldn't manipulate the offender, so inherently you already know that is not what forgiveness is for.

 

[Chileice]

Forgiveness

Forgiveness

Romans 12:14-21 The context of the verse you quoted out of context:

14Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. 16Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion.

17Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,"[a] says the Lord. 20Therefore
"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head."



21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

1. Why does God say vengeance is His, so do not repay? If I'm to forgive those who abuse me or rape me or kill me, why would God say He'd avenge me? hmmm?

HE will avange so that you don't have to. HE wants us to bless those who curse us, even those who rape us or shoot at us. But that does NOT mean we overlook their sin. Those who do evil to us ARE evil. The evil they do is evil. We can rebuke them. But then we can also say..."In spite of that, I am going to treat you the way Christ has treated me. Your sin is still sin and you still need to repent and seek forgiveness, but I forgive you. I will not let your actions make me bitter."

2. Why does not God rebuke the saints under the alter in Revelations when they cry out for vengeance? They're saints and want Him to take care of business! So much for forgiveness.

Once again, I think you should go take the whole passage in context and think it through. I don't think it puts forgiveness out the window. If we say, "so much for forgiveness", Christianity is a sham. We might as well just be some moralists seeking to balance punishments with actions the best we can. And you will never be safe in your Christianity either because you will never know if you are really forgiven, because you might slip up again. Forgiveness is the :em: heart of the Gospel. Without it we are just another Islam with a mean-spirited capricious god who may or may not let us into his heaven.

Correct, I will not forgive someone who has hurt me and thumbs his nose at what he's done. It would be mocking the whole concept of forgiveness. I can know only by how they present themselves. I've had people say they're sorry, but find that they lied. At the time I forgave. What! Am I to forgive them for mocking me and lying right to my face as well!? Even God needs proof of a contrite heart. Now, He can see the heart, I can't. So, here is some wisdom: wait to see how they back up their claims of repentence. God's not stupid, He knows that we are not supernatural. He understands the need for evidence . . . why, He left them all over the place so we can believe in Him! To be forgiven for no act of repentence the offenders now know that forgiveness means nothing and they can do as they please. When did Jesus forgive Peter 490 times??

You will be waiting all your life to forgive. I feel sorry for you. Here is the evidence you asked for. Here is the whole passage in its context. Kind of scarey if we don't forgive, I'd say. Please read it, it is germain to the point.

Forgiveness
21Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"
22Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

23"For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.

24"When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.

25"But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.

26"So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'

27"And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.

28"But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, 'Pay back what you owe.'

29"So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you.'

30"But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.

31"So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.

32"Then summoning him, his lord said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.

33'Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'

34"And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

35"My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."

So, if my family member is raped, I shouldn't seek to have the rapist brought to justice. You are a fool. You would let the rapist go free, all forgiven. And the rapist is cleared to rape again because you have no affect on this pig. You would let a murderer murder again. A pedophile destroy little lives. But, hey, he has no "power" over you, so it's OK. You feel better because you've forgiven. If it feels good, do it? You'd be no better than the offender.

First of all, Rimi, I will rebuke you. It is not godly to call a fellow believer a fool. But, next, I'm going to forgive you because I don't want to have some long-standing feud or grudge with you. I hope that I can treat you as I would anyone who has not insulted me and put words in my mouth.

As you can see from all previous posts, I have never advocated letting rapists go free and acting like they never sinned. Sin carries consecunces and the sin of rapre has its consecuences, not the least of which is a jail term. But I think families who have come to forgive those who have wronged them do live a more productive, less bitter life.

I'll get personal with you here. I was molested as a child. I'd always been taught to forgiveforgiveforgive, much as you espouse here. This filth went on to molest countless others, lives destroyed. I felt responsible for the ones I found out about, because hey I'd forgiven him and this should've helped him out some way. He had control over me by way of guilt. But, hey, I forgive him! For everything because that's what I'd been taught! Forgive! Forgive! Forgive! Didn't make sense then when I was asked to take him to court, which I did, since if I'd forgiven him how could I possibly hold him accountable??? Very confusing. I mean, I'd been taught that forgiveness is a clean slate! I felt guilt over going to court for crying out loud! When I became a Christian, and read the Word of God, it all became clear. He's not forgiven because he's not repentent. This devil murdered souls. I should have been asking, crying for vengeance from a holy and awesome God. And THAT, Chileice, set me free. I am free in Jesus Christ. HE is my rest. HE is my comfort. And I trust that one day HE will avenge me. Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ ALONE, is my freedom. How I wish you had such freedom as do I.

I am very sorry that you were molested. I am. I think it is a terrible crime and the criminal should not go unpunished. But what someone taught you as forgiveness was wrong. Pretending it didn't happen is not forgiveness. Calling it what it is: SIN, and then forgiving the person IN SPITE of their action is real forgiveness. You are right, He still has an unpaid debt with God. If he will not admit his sin and does not want forgiveness, he won't experience it. But you can experience the forgiveness and freedom of not letting his actions define YOUR life. Totally leave the vengeance in God's hands and move on. You are not the only one to have gone through crap like that. Most of us have experiences that could mar us forever if we don't deal with them properly. I know that writing in a forum is not the best way to judge attitude. But it sounds to me that you are still bitter. If I have read something into your writing that is NOT there, please forgive me. But I don't see how you can say you have freedom when what I read sounds like bitterness.

 

[Chileice]

I think it's odd that people believe their "rebuke" actually means something to anyone but themselves.

If I believe that the effect my actions had on you were justified, and you don't agree so you "rebuke" me for them, what will I care? And so you won't forgive me. What will I care? You have decided for yourself what you think is right and wrong. Other people have decided for themselves what they think is right and wrong. And there will inevitably be disagreement about these. My point is that someone you would call an "unrepentant sinner" isn't going to care at all about your "rebukes" or your lack of forgiveness. So the only person you're effecting by holding on to your righteous indignation is yourself. The "sinner" will either continue to sin, or he won't, depending on his own ideas about what's right and wrong. And your unforgiveness and rebukes have nothing to do with it. We aren't in charge of the hearts and minds of others, and we never will be.

Forgiveness is not a tool we use to control manipulate other people. It's something we do for ourselves, to keep peace within ourselves and between ourselves and God.

Very well said. Thanks!

 

[Turbo]

Personally, I don't think the scripture you cited above has anything to do with Biblical forgiveness. That Scripture purely had to do with Jesus asking God to forgive them for not realizing that they were killing God. I think we would be reading too much into it to take it any farther than that.

I think we should ask for forgiveness whenever we sin. If we have sinned against our brother, we need to ask for God's forgiveness and then for our brother's forgiveness. However, I do think it's Biblical to not forgive our brother for having sinned against us if our brother remains unrepentant. I think it's unloving to forgive someone who remains in their sin. What is that teaching your brother?

Look at it this way: If your son or daughter disobeyed you, which is clearly sin, would you just overlook this willfull disobedience and forgive them for it? Or, would you confront their sin, show them how what they did was sin and that it harmed you, and tell them that they needed to ask for your forgiveness?

:first: POTD!

 

[Rimi]

Chileice made my case:

Romans 12:14-21 The context of the verse you quoted out of context:

14Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. 16Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion.

Hardly out of context. To rebuke is to bless with the truth. To not rebuke would be a curse. To forgive without repentence is misrepresenting God's way of doing things and would be a curse. For both parties.

17Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men.

Not forgiving when it is not asked for is NOT repaying evil for evil. Forgiving when someone admits their sins/crimes is having regard for good things. It is a good thing to repent. Yes, as much as it depends on you, live peaceably. But if it is not possible, do the right thing and confront and rebuke those who sin.

19Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,"[a] says the Lord. 20Therefore
"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head."

Not forgiving is not avenging one's self. Seeking justice is not avenging one's self. To kill my rapist would be evil in God's sight, but to not forgive him is righteous when he is not repentent. Do good, sure, but do not give him what he does not deserve (forgiveness) unless he repents.

21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Not forgiving is NOT being overcome by evil, else God would have rebuked the saints under the alter. Correction is good. Repentence is great as it paves the way for forgiveness.

HE will avange so that you don't have to.

Why did Jesus say, "If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." .. .. If I forgive them, why should God need to avenge? Isn't forgiveness a clean slate? Isn't that what God does for us when we repent and then He forgives?

HE wants us to bless those who curse us, even those who rape us or shoot at us. But that does NOT mean we overlook their sin.

Rebuking is blessing them. Forgiving them when they do not repent does not bless them. Bless, yes; forgive without cause, no. Forgiving without repentence IS overlooking their sin.

Those who do evil to us ARE evil. The evil they do is evil.

ya think?

We can rebuke them. But then we can also say..."In spite of that, I am going to treat you the way Christ has treated me.

Christ did not forgive me until I repented of my sins, so you are not forgiving the way Christ did/does.

Your sin is still sin and you still need to repent and seek forgiveness, but I forgive you. I will not let your actions make me bitter."

You are not forgiving as Christ forgives. And not forgiving someone does not make me bitter. The culprit not repenting makes me bitter.

Once again, I think you should go take the whole passage in context and think it through.

I was just thinking the same about you.

I don't think it puts forgiveness out the window. If we say, "so much for forgiveness", Christianity is a sham.

Forgiving when it is not merited is a sham.

We might as well just be some moralists seeking to balance punishments with actions the best we can.

Only if we seek vengence . . . not justice or repentence from the culprit, but vengence.

And you will never be safe in your Christianity either because you will never know if you are really forgiven, because you might slip up again.

I am safe in my faith in Christ, because I know that when I turn from my sin and with a contrite heart ask for forgiveness I am given it. I KNOW I will fail as I am only human. God knows that too. But if I can overcome my human desire to make excuses and just be honest and ask for forgiveness when I fail, I know that God will forgive.

Forgiveness is the :em: heart of the Gospel. Without it we are just another Islam with a mean-spirited capricious god who may or may not let us into his heaven.

You don't know your Scriptures.

You will be waiting all your life to forgive.

If the offender doesn't repend, I'm ok with that.

I feel sorry for you.

Irrelevant.

Here is the evidence you asked for. Here is the whole passage in its context. Kind of scarey if we don't forgive, I'd say. Please read it, it is germain to the point.

It IS germain to the point. And with it you make my whole case. Let's break it down, shall we.

Forgiveness
21Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"
22Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

First of all, you said Jesus forgave Peter 490 times. You misstated.

23"For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.

The king is Jesus Christ, right?

24"When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.

25"But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.

Aw, look, the rebuke. Caught in his sin.

26"So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'

Aw, look, repentence.

27"And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.

NOW we see forgiveness of debt.

28"But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, 'Pay back what you owe.'

Like Christ, the rebuke. Aw.

29"So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you.'

Aw, look, REPENTENCE.

30"But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.

And this is where the 1st dude messes up, because after rebuking and repentence, he didn't forgive. THIS is wrong.

31"So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.

32"Then summoning him, his lord said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.

Are you getting this? "BECAUSE YOU PLEADED WITH ME" THAT's why the lord forgave the slave. He did NOT forgive without the slave pleading.

33'Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'

Hear this?? ". . .IN THE SAME WAY that I had mercy on you" And how was that way? By rebuking, receiving repentence, and THEN forgiving.

34"And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

35"My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."

IF we do not forgive WHEN there has been repentence, then God will be moved to react badly It's like you're reading this without really seeing it. You've read it so many times that it means nothing to you. Read it again.

First of all, Rimi, I will rebuke you.

Whuddevah blows yore skirt up.

It is not godly to call a fellow believer a fool.

It would be worse if I'd said nothing. Hey, here's one for ya: Was it nice of Jesus to call fellow Jews swine? sons of the devil? brook of vipers?

But, next, I'm going to forgive you because I don't want to have some long-standing feud or grudge with you. I hope that I can treat you as I would anyone who has not insulted me and put words in my mouth.

Your forgiveness means nothing to me as I didn't ask for it. It's a sham. You HOPE you can treat me as you would anyone else??? And here I'd thought you'd forgiven me. See, it's not real, you don't mean it, and it's worthless. THAT's why we are not to forgive without REPENTENCE.

As you can see from all previous posts, I have never advocated letting rapists go free and acting like they never sinned. Sin carries consecunces and the sin of rapre has its consecuences, not the least of which is a jail term. But I think families who have come to forgive those who have wronged them do live a more productive, less bitter life.

You are mistaken. They want desparately to be free of it, but they cannot because either the culprit is still running around and not turning himself in (ya know, like, repenting) or he's sitting in a cell AT THEIR EXPENSE and laughing at them. I was watching a special on the Tate/LaBiano murders by the Manson clan. Sharon Tate's mother was filmed confronting the guy (can't think of his name, but he claims to be a Christian now and has a website and guess who pays for it -- have been meaning to write to him that he would've likely been saved sooner if he'd had a death sentence hanging over his head so he shouldn't advocate life sentences!). He sat there rolling his eyesk, wouldn't look at her. He murdered her daughter and grandchild, and he sat there sullen like she had some nerve speaking to him that way. No repentence. Nothing. She was wise in not forgiving him. The irony of this: she was prolly not saved and is in hell now (died in the 80s I think) and he's saved. But he was not repentence then, and she was right in not forgiving him.

I am very sorry that you were molested. I am. I think it is a terrible crime and the criminal should not go unpunished. But what someone taught you as forgiveness was wrong. Pretending it didn't happen is not forgiveness.

I was not taught to pretend it didn't happen. I was taught to forgive. As you are saying in this thread. And it is wrong.

Calling it what it is: SIN, and then forgiving the person IN SPITE of their action is real forgiveness.

It is sin and it was not forgivable becasuse he's not repentent. Re-read above breakdown of wicked slave.

You are right, He still has an unpaid debt with God.

True. And God knows that he has an upaid debt with those he abused. And God will avenge because of his lack of repentence.

If he will not admit his sin and does not want forgiveness, he won't experience it.

THAT'S RIGHT!!!!!

You've managed to make my whole point. Again.

But you can experience the forgiveness and freedom of not letting his actions define YOUR life.

MY freedom is in Christ, as I've already explain. For you to say this now offends the very person of Jesus Christ. And calls me a liar. I'll forgive if you repent. The pedophile's actions affect my live, but do not define it. You need to talk with Christ on this.

Totally leave the vengeance in God's hands and move on.

D.u.h. I did not seek vengeance. I sought justice. I did move on, affected. I do move on in Christ now, freed, blessed and defined by Christ.

You are not the only one to have gone through crap like that. Most of us have experiences that could mar us forever if we don't deal with them properly.

True, which initially I didn't do well. But in Christ, now I do. The pig didn't repent, he is dispicable. And God Himself will avenge me.

I know that writing in a forum is not the best way to judge attitude. But it sounds to me that you are still bitter.

Yes, as you are completely wrong about me. If anything, I am bitter towards Christians like you who mislead.

If I have read something into your writing that is NOT there, please forgive me. But I don't see how you can say you have freedom when what I read sounds like bitterness.

[/QUOTE]


As so againk, you infer that I am lying. Again, you give no credit to my freedom in Christ Jesus.

I rebuke YOU, Chileice. How dare you insult the joy of Christ in my life! How dare you. I rebuke YOU, Chileice. I do not forgive you, however, unless you repent.

 

[PureX]

Look at it this way: If your son or daughter disobeyed you, which is clearly sin, would you just overlook this willfull disobedience and forgive them for it? Or, would you confront their sin, show them how what they did was sin and that it harmed you, and tell them that they needed to ask for your forgiveness?

The problem with this analogy, and with the attitude that fosters it, is that other people are NOT YOUR CHILDREN. We aren't in charge of other people's moral or spiritual education. And it's only our own blind arrogance that makes us suppose that we are. And of course it's this same blind arrogance that causes others to resent and reject our trying to play "parent" to them. And rightly so. In fact, we would do the same were they to try to arrogantly force their imagined "parent-like" authority on us.

 

[Chileice]

Rebuking is blessing; hating is loving, etc. etc. People who believe that are living in some kind of self-made parallel universe. That's truly scarey.