The Wisdom of "Eye for an eye" theology

[Chileice]

:dog: :dog: "DOGVILLE!!!.... The Thread" :dog: :dog:

If any of you have seen the movie, you know what I mean.

 

[Chileice]

I submit that the "eye for an eye" law was not meant to represent justice on
behalf of the injured party, for that would seem to endorse vengence or revenge
as a healing practice.

Rather, I submit that the wisdom of "eye for an eye," is from the perspective
of the one who inflicts injury. God has always held humanity accountable for
our actions, especially those which hurt others.

What better way to understand the pain inflicted upon another person than
to experience it yourself.

Eye for an eye, translated into the perspective of the perpetrator, becomes
Christ's golden rule, do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

When asked about the perspective of the injured party, Jesus told us to
forgive, not seek revenge.

The nature of God has never changed. Christ fulfilled the law by drawing
proper focus to the intent, the Spirit, of the law...



Dave Miller

I can't see how Nineveh could go ballistic over this. This makes perfectly good biblical sense. Christ basically did that with the woman caught in adultery. He left the door open for them to throw stones and exact their revenge... if they didn't want to likewise be stoned. They all knew they were guilty of punishable offences and wound up walking away. Then the only one who could righteously castigate her, gave her a second chance. I don't imagine she ever got caught in adultery again. The undeserved forgiveness was more of a lesson than 40 lashes or a 100 stones would have been.

 

[Rimi]

I can't see how Nineveh could go ballistic over this. This makes perfectly good biblical sense. Christ basically did that with the woman caught in adultery. He left the door open for them to throw stones and exact their revenge... if they didn't want to likewise be stoned. They all knew they were guilty of punishable offences and wound up walking away. Then the only one who could righteously castigate her, gave her a second chance. I don't imagine she ever got caught in adultery again. The undeserved forgiveness was more of a lesson than 40 lashes or a 100 stones would have been.

You are mistaken. The offense of which they were guilty at this point was that, after having caught the woman in the act and so there must've been another person there, they only brought forth the woman to be executed and to test Jesus. They disregarded what God said about handling adulterers. Jesus did have authority because He is God. But it would've been interesting to see what He would've done had the leaders don't correctly by bringing forth both guilty parties.

 

[Rimi]

Anybody ever noticed how beanie is always bragging about the good that he did/does?

YES! Every post he has he makes about him. But if we have a poll on what a turd he is, we get put down. Go figure.

 

[PureX]

... The undeserved forgiveness was more of a lesson than 40 lashes or a 100 stones would have been.

There are a lot of people who don't understand this, don't believe it, and/or don't want to believe it. And those people want vengeance, because for them, vengeance is the only solution they see.

 

[wickwoman]

Bill, what was Jesus doing when he said "your sins are forgiven?" Was he doing it right then, stating a fact of something that happened in the past, or noting there was nothing to forgive. What do you think?

 

[Chileice]

There are a lot of people who don't understand this, don't believe it, and/or don't want to believe it. And those people want vengeance, because for them, vengeance is the only solution they see.

It is kind of like a line in "The Interpreter": "Vengeance is the a lazy form of grief." i think that was almost worth the price of admission. People are lazy. It is always easier to hate than to love, to take vengeance than to forgive. The forgiven party might hurt us again. It is a chance we take. It is the same chance God takes with us 365 days a year. I wish we could see that. Here is a Bible passage from Matthew 20 that spoke to me in a recent personal devotional time with the Lord:

Jesus Again Predicts His Death
17Now as Jesus was going up to Jerusalem, he took the twelve disciples aside and said to them, 18"We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death 19and will turn him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!"
A Mother's Request
20Then the mother of Zebedee's sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him.
21"What is it you want?" he asked.
She said, "Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom."

22"You don't know what you are asking," Jesus said to them. "Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?"
"We can," they answered.

23Jesus said to them, "You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father."

24When the ten heard about this, they were indignant with the two brothers. 25Jesus called them together and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 26Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— 28just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

Wow! They didn't get it. In his moment of greatest angst, when they should have been concerned for His welfare, all they could think about was their own comfort and future well-being. That just about explains it today as well. No one wants to serve anyone. Oh sure, we give it lipservice because it makes us sound altruistic, but we really don't give a flip what happens to the next guy... especially if he is in some way a threat to our own perceived well-being. As Christians we often seek the right or left hand of Christ and some moral high ground against all comers, but we aren't willing to go through hell with Jesus. We want to fight the battle from the comfort of our own pious easy chairs.

And it isn't just Chrisitians. Most people throw their hands up and say what can we do about drugs, alcohol, crime, unwanted pregnancies, etc. etc. We just hope someone will legislate them out of existence without the need for us to do one single thing for them. It sure is easier that way. Vengeance is easy, and laziness leads to vengeance.

 

[Hasan_ibn_Sabah]

Great post Chileice

 

[Rimi]

Looks to me like the bible is directly contradicting itself. On the one hand we are to love and forgive our enemies, on the other hand we are NOT to forgive them unless they are claiming to repent. So naturally, in the face of this contradiction, people will choose which of these views they will hold depending upon their own personalities. Unforgiving people will see an unforgiving God, and will reiterate the scriptures that promote this view. While people of a forgiving nature will see a forgiving God, and will reiterate the scriptures that promote this view. In the end, the God we "see" is the God we want to see. And the scriptures we reiterate are the scriptures that promote and justify our own spiritual nature.

So the question isn't really, "Who's right and who's wrong?". The question is; "Is this really who I want to be, and is this really how I want to see God?". We'll have to answer that question for ourselves.

Call 1-888-8Enyart! And get The Plot today! And, no, I don't get a commission.

 

[Turbo]

Hasan_ibn_Sabah, are you planning on replying?

 

[Hasan_ibn_Sabah]

In due time

 

[Turbo]

Ok. :up:

 

[PureX]

Call 1-888-8Enyart! And get The Plot today! And, no, I don't get a commission.

LOL! No likely.

 

[Hasan_ibn_Sabah]

Paul said we should forgive others because God has already forgiven us.

Ephesians 4:32
And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.​

Who was Jesus talking to? Who was Paul talking to? Their instructions conflict with each other. Which should you follow?

You follow Christ, like Paul admonished us too. I don't like playing the "Jesus said this...but Paul said this..." Bible contradiction game, I know Jesus commanded us to love our enemies and do good to those who hate us, Jesus also said that we are to forgive others and when we forgive others, God will forgive us, Jesus seems to be saying that our forgiving others is a preresequite to accepting the forgiveness of the Father

"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses neither will your father forgive your trespasses."

If you cling to the wounds and injuries that the carnal man has recieved, you by no means are ready to enter into a new life. You cannot hold onto old resentment and hate and be born again. New wine for new wineskins

It sounds like you think works are required for salvation. Do you?

Yes, the work of Jesus and the Holy Spirit are required for salvation.

So if someone dies having lived his entire life in rebellion against God and utterly rejecting the gospel, does God forgive him?

Yes, while we were Jesus enemies He died for us, Jesus asked for the forgiveness of those who were in the very act of inflicting capital punishment upon Him, people who positively and utterly rejected His gospel. God is offering us forgiveness, whether we accept it or want it is up to us, but God obviously desires that all accept His forgiveness.

Here is what Jesus actually taught about forgiving others:

[jesus]"Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, 'I repent,' you shall forgive him."[/jesus] Luke 17:3-4​

Jesus says to rebuke him, but to forgive him only if he repents.

But what if he doesn't repent. Should we forgive him anyway?

As if it weren't obvious enough in Luke 17:3-4, Matthew 18:15-17 removes all doubt:

[jesus]Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear,...[/jesus]​

...Forgive him anyway so that the sun won't set on your anger? Not quite:

[jesus] ...take with you one or two more, that "by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.' And if he refuses to hear them,...[/jesus]​

...Go ahead and forgive him so you will not become bitter? Nope:

[jesus] tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church,...[/jesus]​

...Then announce that you've forgive him anyway to demonstrate to everyone how magnanimous and "Christlike" you are? Absolutely not:

[jesus] ...let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.[/jesus] ​

When you teach that Christians should forgive everyone no matter what, you teach the world that they do not need to humble themselves before God. He'll forgive them anyway; after all, his followers forgive everyone no matter what.

(What's ironic is that this topic came up when you rebuked several Christians who you thought were doing wrong... but you didn't jump at the chance to forgive them. :think: )

We are to forgive, Jesus said if we want to experience the forgiveness that God has for us, we have to forgive others. Luke 17: 3-4 in no way contradicts Matthew 6:14-15 as you suggest. What it is saying is when someone repents and ask you fro forgiveness...forgive them. What you are trying to make it say is that only when they repent are we to frogive and the Bible isnt saying that. The Bible say we are to forgive, that we are to love our enemies, do good to those who hate us and pray for those who abuse us.

To withold forgiveness until someone ask for it is like holding something over peoples head, its a power manuever - a form of manipulation and vindictiveness. that is not in the Spirit of the Gospel of Peace, when someone sins and we bring it to their attention, it is for their benefit not ours, its to restore fellowship and peace that we should do these things.

 

[Rimi]

Hasan Hyphen said:

To withold forgiveness until someone ask for it is like holding something over peoples head, its a power manuever - a form of manipulation and vindictiveness. that is not in the Spirit of the Gospel of Peace, when someone sins and we bring it to their attention, it is for their benefit not ours, its to restore fellowship and peace that we should do these things.

So you're saying that this is what God does, be vindictive? I mean, Scriptures clearly state that there can be no forgiveness without repentence. Or are you saying God forgives everyone no matter if they repent?

Also, could you or someone who thinks like you explain how forgiving someone who's not repentent is for the benefit of the forgiver. I'm not saying you said this, I'm not sure that you did, but your "side" tends to make this claim and I'd like it explained.

 

[Chileice]

Hasan Hyphen said:



So you're saying that this is what God does, be vindictive? I mean, Scriptures clearly state that there can be no forgiveness without repentence. Or are you saying God forgives everyone no matter if they repent?

Also, could you or someone who thinks like you explain how forgiving someone who's not repentent is for the benefit of the forgiver. I'm not saying you said this, I'm not sure that you did, but your "side" tends to make this claim and I'd like it explained.

There are MANY evidences in the NT that repentance wasn't needed for forgiveness. In Mark 2 the paralytic never repented before Jesus forgave him. The man waiting by the pool was healed with no repentance mentioned or implied. Even the prodigal son was forgiven before he even had a chance to repent. So to say that is a clear scriptural teaching is wrong. What is clear is that Jesus desired mercy rather sacrifice. He quoted that 3 times from Hosea chapter 6. Very interesting. We want to force repentance because it fits better with the economic justice we desire the world to have. It fits well with the Levitical law, but it doesn't fit too well with Jesus or Paul. We have received grace upon grace, that which we NEVER merited or deserved, not as a result of works but as a result of the infinite love of the Father.

 

[PureX]

....But if I can't hold my rightiousness over the sinner's head, how will I have any control over him??? How will he know that God is on my side and that he'd better do what I tell him to do?... (*shaking head and mumbling something unintelligably*)

 

[Hasan_ibn_Sabah]

Well consider your righteousness as dross, as filthy rags, holding punishment over someones head in order to extract obedience to you is not grace, thats what the Pharisees did to people. We are to be ministers of grace, not seeking to control others but to seeking restore to fellowship and peace with God and neighbor. When a person does wrong to me, I don't want them to repent for my benefit, so I can feel morally superior to them , but so we may restore fellowship and peace, for their benefit.

 

[PureX]

Well consider your righteousness as dross, as filthy rags, holding punishment over someones head in order to extract obedience to you is not grace, thats what the Pharisees did to people. We are to be ministers of grace, not seeking to control others but to seeking restore to fellowship and peace with God and neighbor. When a person does wrong to me, I don't want them to repent for my benefit, so I can feel morally superior to them , but so we may restore fellowship and peace, for their benefit.

What religion are you? That doesn't sound like any version of religious Christianity I'm familiar with. If this were true, why are Christians always condemning gays, and unwed mothers, and abortion practitioners, and liberals, and everyone else they deem to be a sinner?

 

[Rimi]

There are MANY evidences in the NT that repentance wasn't needed for forgiveness. In Mark 2 the paralytic never repented before Jesus forgave him. The man waiting by the pool was healed with no repentance mentioned or implied. Even the prodigal son was forgiven before he even had a chance to repent. So to say that is a clear scriptural teaching is wrong. What is clear is that Jesus desired mercy rather sacrifice. He quoted that 3 times from Hosea chapter 6. Very interesting. We want to force repentance because it fits better with the economic justice we desire the world to have. It fits well with the Levitical law, but it doesn't fit too well with Jesus or Paul. We have received grace upon grace, that which we NEVER merited or deserved, not as a result of works but as a result of the infinite love of the Father.

But that was JESUS. He can do whatever the heck He wants! HE knew the heart of the person he healed/forgave, even if they didn't speak. No, we don't want to force repentence. It must be given freely and truly or it's nothing at all. But we also don't want to run around forgiving those who don't give a rip, which would be just as bad. These fit very well with Jesus Christ and his scribe Paul. Yes, we received grace, and we will never be worthy of it. But we DID have to do ONE thing for it: repent. We had to realize our sins/crimes and run to God for forgiveness. Without THAT, we could have no part of Him. Manson, to my knowledge has never repented. Are you saying that Manson has received grace and forgiveness?? What about Stalin? What about Bundy? What about Hitler? I've heard of no record of these turds saying they were sorry for what they did and that they'd wished they hadn't done such things. You think God forgives them?

Why did Jesus say "Repent for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand"? And "If you brother sins against him, rebuke him. And IF he repents, forgive him."? Why did Jesus say things things?