The Wisdom of "Eye for an eye" theology

[Ecumenicist]

The repayment is for the benefit of the victimizer...

Exactly, and this whole discussion illustrates the depth of the conviction of the
Holy Spirit. The victim finds peace in forgiving the sinner, but the sinner has
a hard time finding peace after suffering true conviction. In search for peace
and reconcilliation, the sinner offers double. The victim may actually accept
recompense as an act of charity to the sinner, and may choose to give the second
coat to charity instead...

Dave

 

[Ecumenicist]

Forgiveness rather empowers the victim, forgiveness tranforms the victim, he is no longer a victim

Absolutely agree. Good comments throughout the thread, thanx.

Dave

 

[Ecumenicist]

Like I said, dave, you need some serious theological help. Do you realize you are advocting maiming people in the name of God for the sake of empathy? Probably. I'll just chalk this right up there with defining sin apart from God's standard and putting yourself in the position to forgive God, oh yeah, and God sins.

Once again quoting Captain Jack Sparrow:

"Sticks 'n stones luv."

 

[billwald]

The wise people who interpreted "eye for eye" used it as a maximum and converted physical injury to monetary penalty

 

[wickwoman]

The wise people who interpreted "eye for eye" used it as a maximum and converted physical injury to monetary penalty

Were they wise? I see a big problem with the idea of converting human suffering into money. Can you put a price tag on it?

The parents of dead or injured children seem to think that suing negligent doctors' insurance companies for money will take away their pain. Will it? I was involved in such lawsuits for years. And it is a very perverted concept. These same parents often have no interest in making complaints against so called negligent doctors' licenses. They just want the money. And its not just to cover medical expenses anymore. We have in this state awards for pain and suffering. Does a million dollars take away pain?

Now I wouldn't be in favor of a legal system that put out the eyes of offenders. But there must be some way to teach a purer lesson than "money cures all evils."

 

[wickwoman]

Hi Dave. In other words, if someone believed in karma, they could say, Jesus volunteered to take on the bad karma of others? Karma is a threatening word to some, but it's really just another way of saying "an eye for an eye."

 

[Turbo]

Hasan_ibn_Sabah,

Did Jesus go out of his way to avoid upsetting false teachers of his day?

According to Jesus, should we forgive those who refuse to repent?

 

[billwald]

>Did Jesus go out of his way to avoid upsetting false teachers of his day?

Yes

>According to Jesus, should we forgive those who refuse to repent?

Repent of what? Personal sins against us? Yes, forgive them but don't tell them.

 

[Turbo]

>According to Jesus, should we forgive those who refuse to repent?

Repent of what? Personal sins against us? Yes, forgive them but don't tell them.

Note that I said According to Jesus... and not According to billwald.

Also, I was specifically asking Hasan_ibn_Sabah.

But thanks, anyway.

 

[Hasan_ibn_Sabah]

>Did Jesus go out of his way to avoid upsetting false teachers of his day?

Yes

>According to Jesus, should we forgive those who refuse to repent?

Repent of what? Personal sins against us? Yes, forgive them but don't tell them.

Yes, the Bible tells us to pray to the Father "Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors", not should we forgive them but we should also do good to them. We are told to forgive the trepasses of other or God will not forgive our trespasses.

The Bible also say we have to let our anger cease. We are not to let the sun set on our anger.

Does a person have to repent in order to be forgiven? Jesus seems to take a more pro-active route, he forgives people fo their sins before they even ask. When he healed, he would tell people "Your sins are forgiven, go sin no more" and yet while we were his enemeis, he dies for us

 

[billwald]

" I see a big problem with the idea of converting human suffering into money. Can you put a price tag on it?"

The court system routinely puts a price tag on humam suffering. Any time anyone says, "It's the princple, not the money," you can be sure it's the money (principal <G>).

 

[wickwoman]

" I see a big problem with the idea of converting human suffering into money. Can you put a price tag on it?"

The court system routinely puts a price tag on humam suffering. Any time anyone says, "It's the princple, not the money," you can be sure it's the money (principal <G>).

This exactly what I am referring to. I believe it is at the root of the "human condition." The idea that money can bring happiness, solve problems, correct wrongs. It absolutely does none of these things. The heart of the matter is that there is nothing to be forgiven. Any attempt at retribution on the part of the victim is evidence of a sickness.

In the case of wrongs done against us, we are afraid to grieve. We immediately convert our pain for the loss into blame. Not truly grieving the loss, converting it into anger. Worse still, we feel justified in our anger. But our grief remains unsolved and hidden, avoided at all cost.

 

[Hasan_ibn_Sabah]

Any attempt at retribution on the part of the victim is evidence of a sickness.

The only form of retribution we should take is the exact opposite of the kind of retribution the world tell us to take, the world wants violent retribution but Jesus demands we take another route:

"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? Do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? Do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

There is nothing wrong with anger, its good to get anger but the ager has to be righteous, when someone wrongs you grieve and get angry, grieve and get angry at the loss of fellowship and the loss peace, and that should move you to bless them that curse, to do good to those that hate you...that grief and anger can move you forward to become active in seeking peace and reconcilliation

 

[Ecumenicist]

Hi Dave. In other words, if someone believed in karma, they could say, Jesus volunteered to take on the bad karma of others? Karma is a threatening word to some, but it's really just another way of saying "an eye for an eye."

Karma implies nontheistic balance of the universe kind of mentality, so its
hard to translate to Theist concepts.

If one makes the move to expressing God's law as universal Karma, then
this would be a good way to express certain aspects of Crucifixion theology.

Another way, however, may be to express it in terms of Dharma, Jesus'
sacrifice serves to restore Dharma in a world that badly needs it.

Dave

PS, another "crossover" theological concept I love is in terms of Tao, "The Way,"
Jesus Christ being "Tao."

Dave

 

[PureX]

Hmmm... Lots of intelligent and wise comments on this thread. I think I'll just be quiet. *smile*

 

[billwald]

How many of you are willing to forgive your enemies because you think God will roast them in Hell?

 

[Turbo]

Yes, the Bible tells us to pray to the Father "Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors", not should we forgive them but we should also do good to them. We are told to forgive the trepasses of other or God will not forgive our trespasses.

Paul said we should forgive others because God has already forgiven us.

Ephesians 4:32
And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.​

Who was Jesus talking to? Who was Paul talking to? Their instructions conflict with each other. Which should you follow?

It sounds like you think works are required for salvation. Do you?

The Bible also say we have to let our anger cease. We are not to let the sun set on our anger.

Withholding forgiveness has nothing to do with being angry.

Does a person have to repent in order to be forgiven? Jesus seems to take a more pro-active route, he forgives people fo their sins before they even ask. When he healed, he would tell people "Your sins are forgiven, go sin no more" and yet while we were his enemeis, he dies for us

So if someone dies having lived his entire life in rebellion against God and utterly rejecting the gospel, does God forgive him?

Here is what Jesus actually taught about forgiving others:

[jesus]"Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, 'I repent,' you shall forgive him."[/jesus] Luke 17:3-4​

Jesus says to rebuke him, but to forgive him only if he repents.

But what if he doesn't repent. Should we forgive him anyway?

As if it weren't obvious enough in Luke 17:3-4, Matthew 18:15-17 removes all doubt:

[jesus]Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear,...[/jesus]​

...Forgive him anyway so that the sun won't set on your anger? Not quite:

[jesus] ...take with you one or two more, that "by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.' And if he refuses to hear them,...[/jesus]​

...Go ahead and forgive him so you will not become bitter? Nope:

[jesus] tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church,...[/jesus]​

...Then announce that you've forgive him anyway to demonstrate to everyone how magnanimous and "Christlike" you are? Absolutely not:

[jesus] ...let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.[/jesus] ​

When you teach that Christians should forgive everyone no matter what, you teach the world that they do not need to humble themselves before God. He'll forgive them anyway; after all, his followers forgive everyone no matter what.

(What's ironic is that this topic came up when you rebuked several Christians who you thought were doing wrong... but you didn't jump at the chance to forgive them. :think: )

 

[PureX]

Looks to me like the bible is directly contradicting itself. On the one hand we are to love and forgive our enemies, on the other hand we are NOT to forgive them unless they are claiming to repent. So naturally, in the face of this contradiction, people will choose which of these views they will hold depending upon their own personalities. Unforgiving people will see an unforgiving God, and will reiterate the scriptures that promote this view. While people of a forgiving nature will see a forgiving God, and will reiterate the scriptures that promote this view. In the end, the God we "see" is the God we want to see. And the scriptures we reiterate are the scriptures that promote and justify our own spiritual nature.

So the question isn't really, "Who's right and who's wrong?". The question is; "Is this really who I want to be, and is this really how I want to see God?". We'll have to answer that question for ourselves.

 

[wickwoman]

Right, Purex, there seems to be a contradiction. And which behavior will be the most healthy for us?

It seems even Jesus didn't follow his own advice, because, whenever anyone approached him, he did not wait for them to repent, he merely said "your sins are forgiven." Not, "I am forgiving you now," or "I will forgive you as soon as you repent."

What does that mean, Turbo?

 

[billwald]

Forgiving a person has nothing to do with telling a person he is forgiven. It is two seperate problems. On many occasions the oppposite happens. A person says a pro forma "I forgive" while hating your guts.