The Trinity

[Lon]

...you're blinded by that theological pride virus that controls you're mind loyal to this world cause/system and is a generic spirit you try and pin on me.

If you don't think you have the same and worse pride, you are kidding yourself. We are transformed by the renewing of our minds. I moved the rest of the discussion here, Zeke.

 

[Lon]

You yourself said that Modalism and Trinity were both viable options. I do not consider myself precisely Trinitarian or Modalist and I accept the gospel of John. But regardless of me, surely you do not adamantly disagree with yourself?

It is discussion 'to a point.' I would certainly carry the discussion further with a modalist. I was summarizing what was viable belief at that point. John 1:1 denotes clearly the triune view because 'with' and 'was' demand the concession. The Trinitarian model is concerned with 1) no scripture left behind and 2) no further than scripture allows. I believe these two rules demand a triune position and I'm in very good company. The voting in this thread is not at all indicative of the world at large. We believe this doctrine for very good reasons, all scriptural, but well-spelled out in the Creeds. In Him -Lon

 

[daqq]

Moses saw God, Abraham served God bread, Jacob says he say God and lived. So if you have a strict inflexible definition for "saw" you have biblical contradiction. Perhaps "seen" has a broader larger meaning as used by John, rather than "witnessed physical manifestation."

That's true for a change but if "saw" cannot be physical observation with the eyes then the man Yeshua is not the Logos or the only begotten Elohim who has declared the Father. No one has seen Elohim at any time therefore means that no one has seen a physical manifestation of Elohim, whether speaking of the Father, or whether speaking of the only begotten Elohim which is the Son. That is the error of both Trinitarianism and the so-called Oneness and similar doctrines: making a man into an Elohim "God-Man".

It plainly and clearly is.

Is that what is shows? A few dots missing... The thread is done. Talk as much as you like atf.

Making bold emphatic statements with no scripture to support your bold emphatic decrees only reveals more and more, every time you do it, that you are deceived and throwing a tantrum like a child when you do not get to have your way. In the real world Johnny Rotten does not get an "A" for spreading his feces all over the classroom walls, (even if it is art class). :chuckle:

Daqq, sorry, that's just dumb. John is clearly speaking of Jesus and its obvious to anyone reading chapter 1. Say you don't accept John if you like.

I do accept John but as already stated Yeshua declares that he is neither the Logos nor the Judge in that very same Gospel account. Therefore it is you who does not accept John even though you claim that you do. If the man Yeshua is not the Logos then your understanding of John 1:1 suffers catastrophic failure. This also was already referenced in the link to the thread that was provided at the beginning of this particular topic of discussion and has likewise been posted at least four or five times in different places in this board, (maybe even in this very lengthy thread but I would have to search it).

Here is the perfect logic behind what I say, Freelight, taken straight from the Testimony of Yeshua himself in the very same Gospel account which so many use to supposedly prove that the man Yeshua or Jesus is "God Almighty born into human flesh" as they say. But when we take certain key statements of the Master himself, as follows, the error of Trinity is clearly exposed by the Testimony of Yeshua himself. The first key statement is that Yeshua says his words are SPIRIT, and even this should be enough to fully support what I have said, but if you follow the logic laid out in sequence from the statements below there is absolutely no denying the outcome of these clear emphatic statements.

The words of Yeshua are Spirit:

John 6:62-63
62 What then if you should behold the Son of Man ascending up [to] where he was before?
63 It is the Spirit that quickens; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are Life.

The Father judges no one but has committed all judgment to the Son:

John 5:22
22. For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment unto the Son:

The man Yeshua also states that he himself judges no one:

John 8:15
15. You judge after the flesh: I judge no one.

There is only one who judges and he is the Seeker and the Judge:

John 8:50
50. And I seek not mine own glory: one there is, the Seeker and Judge. [Rev 2:23]

The Memra-Logos-Word which the man Yeshua speaks is not his own:

John 14:24
24. He that loves me not, keeps not my sayings: and the Logos-Word which you hear is not of me, but-contrariwise [it is] of the Father who sent me.

The Memra-Logos-Word is the Seeker and the Judge:

John 12:47-48
47. And if anyone hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but that the world might be delivered.
48. He that rejects me, and receives not my words, has one that judges him: the Logos-Word that I have spoken, that one shall judge him in the last day.

Revelation 19:11-16
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no one knew but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Logos-Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

The Son of Elohim and Son of Man is the Memra-Logos-Word who descended from the heavens in pneumatikos-spiritual somatiko-bodily form of a dove and abode-remained upon-within the man Yeshua throughout his ministry and Golgotha. No one has seen Elohim at any time because spoken word cannot be seen with the eyes of the flesh. The "new covenant" new Spirit, (Ezekiel 11:19, 18:31, 36:26), is therefore the most holy Word of the Testimony of Yeshua. Anyone claiming to have "the Holy Spirit" but not having and upholding the Testimony of Yeshua in uprightness is therefore deceived.

Here it is without the quote box so that it will show up if someone quotes this post:

Here is the perfect, (systematic), logic taken straight from the Testimony of Yeshua himself in the very same Gospel account which so many use to supposedly prove that the man Yeshua or Jesus is "God Almighty born into human flesh" as they say. But when we take certain key statements of the Master himself, as follows, the error of Trinity is clearly exposed by the Testimony of Yeshua himself. The first key statement is that Yeshua says his words are SPIRIT, and even this should be enough to fully support what I have said, but if you follow the logic laid out in sequence from the statements below there is absolutely no denying the outcome of these clear emphatic statements.

The words of Yeshua are Spirit:

John 6:62-63
62 What then if you should behold the Son of Man ascending up [to] where he was before?
63 It is the Spirit that quickens; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are Life.

The Father judges no one but has committed all judgment to the Son:

John 5:22
22. For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment unto the Son:

The man Yeshua also states that he himself judges no one:

John 8:15
15. You judge after the flesh: I judge no one.

There is only one who judges and he is the Seeker and the Judge:

John 8:50
50. And I seek not mine own glory: one there is, the Seeker and Judge. [Rev 2:23]

The Memra-Logos-Word which the man Yeshua speaks is not his own:

John 14:24
24. He that loves me not, keeps not my sayings: and the Logos-Word which you hear is not of me, but-contrariwise [it is] of the Father who sent me.

The Memra-Logos-Word is the Seeker and the Judge:

John 12:47-48
47. And if anyone hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but that the world might be delivered.
48. He that rejects me, and receives not my words, has one that judges him: the Logos-Word that I have spoken, that one shall judge him in the last day.

Revelation 19:11-16
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no one knew but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Logos-Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

The Son of Elohim and Son of Man is the Memra-Logos-Word who descended from the heavens in pneumatikos-spiritual somatiko-bodily form of a dove and abode-remained upon-within the man Yeshua throughout his ministry and Golgotha. No one has seen Elohim at any time because spoken word cannot be seen with the eyes of the flesh. The "new covenant" new Spirit, (Ezekiel 11:19, 18:31, 36:26), is therefore the most holy Word of the Testimony of Yeshua. Anyone claiming to have "the Holy Spirit" but not having and upholding the Testimony of Yeshua in uprightness is therefore deceived.

So essentially what you have said to me, Rosenritter, is that the doctrine of the Master Teacher Yeshua is, "just dumb". Tisk, tisk. :chuckle:

 

[Rosenritter]

That's true for a change but if "saw" cannot be physical observation with the eyes then the man Yeshua is not the Logos or the only begotten Elohim who has declared the Father. No one has seen Elohim at any time therefore means that no one has seen a physical manifestation of Elohim, whether speaking of the Father, or whether speaking of the only begotten Elohim which is the Son. That is the error of both Trinitarianism and the so-called Oneness and similar doctrines: making a man into an Elohim "God-Man".





Making bold emphatic statements with no scripture to support your bold emphatic decrees only reveals more and more, every time you do it, that you are deceived and throwing a tantrum like a child when you do not get to have your way. In the real world Johnny Rotten does not get an "A" for spreading his feces all over the classroom walls, (even if it is art class). :chuckle:





I do accept John but as already stated Yeshua declares that he is neither the Logos nor the Judge in that very same Gospel account. Therefore it is you who does not accept John even though you claim that you do. If the man Yeshua is not the Logos then your understanding of John 1:1 suffers catastrophic failure. This also was already referenced in the link to the thread that was provided at the beginning of this particular topic of discussion and has likewise been posted at least four or five times in different places in this board, (maybe even in this very lengthy thread but I would have to search it).



Here it is without the quote box so that it will show up if someone quotes this post:

Here is the perfect, (systematic), logic taken straight from the Testimony of Yeshua himself in the very same Gospel account which so many use to supposedly prove that the man Yeshua or Jesus is "God Almighty born into human flesh" as they say. But when we take certain key statements of the Master himself, as follows, the error of Trinity is clearly exposed by the Testimony of Yeshua himself. The first key statement is that Yeshua says his words are SPIRIT, and even this should be enough to fully support what I have said, but if you follow the logic laid out in sequence from the statements below there is absolutely no denying the outcome of these clear emphatic statements.

The words of Yeshua are Spirit:

John 6:62-63
62 What then if you should behold the Son of Man ascending up [to] where he was before?
63 It is the Spirit that quickens; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are Life.

The Father judges no one but has committed all judgment to the Son:

John 5:22
22. For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment unto the Son:

The man Yeshua also states that he himself judges no one:

John 8:15
15. You judge after the flesh: I judge no one.

There is only one who judges and he is the Seeker and the Judge:

John 8:50
50. And I seek not mine own glory: one there is, the Seeker and Judge. [Rev 2:23]

The Memra-Logos-Word which the man Yeshua speaks is not his own:

John 14:24
24. He that loves me not, keeps not my sayings: and the Logos-Word which you hear is not of me, but-contrariwise [it is] of the Father who sent me.

The Memra-Logos-Word is the Seeker and the Judge:

John 12:47-48
47. And if anyone hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but that the world might be delivered.
48. He that rejects me, and receives not my words, has one that judges him: the Logos-Word that I have spoken, that one shall judge him in the last day.

Revelation 19:11-16
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no one knew but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Logos-Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

The Son of Elohim and Son of Man is the Memra-Logos-Word who descended from the heavens in pneumatikos-spiritual somatiko-bodily form of a dove and abode-remained upon-within the man Yeshua throughout his ministry and Golgotha. No one has seen Elohim at any time because spoken word cannot be seen with the eyes of the flesh. The "new covenant" new Spirit, (Ezekiel 11:19, 18:31, 36:26), is therefore the most holy Word of the Testimony of Yeshua. Anyone claiming to have "the Holy Spirit" but not having and upholding the Testimony of Yeshua in uprightness is therefore deceived.

So essentially what you have said to me, Rosenritter, is that the doctrine of the Master Teacher Yeshua is, "just dumb". Tisk, tisk. :chuckle:

I stop you at the beginning. If you say no one has seen a physical manifestation of God then you are unfamiliar with Genesis. The rest of your essay was invalidated when you got off track so early.

 

[Lon]

Making bold emphatic statements with no scripture to support your bold emphatic decrees only reveals more and more, every time you do it, that you are deceived and throwing a tantrum like a child when you do not get to have your way. In the real world Johnny Rotten does not get an "A" for spreading his feces all over the classroom walls, (even if it is art class). :chuckle:

Reported. You are also going on ignore. Anybody that drags discussion about the Lord Jesus Christ to the gutter and its blasphemy. Your lack of scruples and propriety require a sandal shaking. You are inappropriate and disrespectful to Him, let alone His Body. You are a crude inappropriate man.

 

[daqq]

Reported. You are also going on ignore. Anybody that drags discussion about the Lord Jesus Christ to the gutter. Blasphemy. Your lack of scruples and propriety require a sandal shaking. You are inappropriate and disrespectful to Him.

The truth is the truth and that is exactly what you are doing when you run around proclaiming your own statements to be the gospel without any evidence from the scripture whatsoever. Your perversion of the scripture for you own benefit is what approaches the blasphemous and your Roman practice of forcing others to either believe you or get lost is atrocious and offensive to say the least. Either put up evidence for your bold statements or go play king somewhere else.

 

[daqq]

I stop you at the beginning. If you say no one has seen a physical manifestation of God then you are unfamiliar with Genesis. The rest of your essay was invalidated when you got off track so early.

If you say there is a physical manifestation of Elohim in Genesis then you do not understand Genesis. Your unwillingness to read the Testimony of Yeshua only shows that you do not uphold his Testimony in uprightness and truth and therefore your blindness is now shown to be willing blindness. To each his or her own I suppose.

 

[keypurr]

Daqq, sorry, that's just dumb. John is clearly speaking of Jesus and its obvious to anyone reading chapter 1. Say you don't accept John if you like.

Not so Rose, John 1 speaks of the spirit that was in Jesus. That spirit is the express image of the Father, the spirit son that the Father used to create all. That spirit became flesh in Jesus who is the body prepared for it in Heb 10:5.

Now I do not have any papers from some fancy college but I do think that God has blessed me with an understanding that most do not have. Consider my thoughts.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[keypurr]

That's true for a change but if "saw" cannot be physical observation with the eyes then the man Yeshua is not the Logos or the only begotten Elohim who has declared the Father. No one has seen Elohim at any time therefore means that no one has seen a physical manifestation of Elohim, whether speaking of the Father, or whether speaking of the only begotten Elohim which is the Son. That is the error of both Trinitarianism and the so-called Oneness and similar doctrines: making a man into an Elohim "God-Man".





Making bold emphatic statements with no scripture to support your bold emphatic decrees only reveals more and more, every time you do it, that you are deceived and throwing a tantrum like a child when you do not get to have your way. In the real world Johnny Rotten does not get an "A" for spreading his feces all over the classroom walls, (even if it is art class). :chuckle:





I do accept John but as already stated Yeshua declares that he is neither the Logos nor the Judge in that very same Gospel account. Therefore it is you who does not accept John even though you claim that you do. If the man Yeshua is not the Logos then your understanding of John 1:1 suffers catastrophic failure. This also was already referenced in the link to the thread that was provided at the beginning of this particular topic of discussion and has likewise been posted at least four or five times in different places in this board, (maybe even in this very lengthy thread but I would have to search it).



Here it is without the quote box so that it will show up if someone quotes this post:

Here is the perfect, (systematic), logic taken straight from the Testimony of Yeshua himself in the very same Gospel account which so many use to supposedly prove that the man Yeshua or Jesus is "God Almighty born into human flesh" as they say. But when we take certain key statements of the Master himself, as follows, the error of Trinity is clearly exposed by the Testimony of Yeshua himself. The first key statement is that Yeshua says his words are SPIRIT, and even this should be enough to fully support what I have said, but if you follow the logic laid out in sequence from the statements below there is absolutely no denying the outcome of these clear emphatic statements.

The words of Yeshua are Spirit:

John 6:62-63
62 What then if you should behold the Son of Man ascending up [to] where he was before?
63 It is the Spirit that quickens; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are Life.

The Father judges no one but has committed all judgment to the Son:

John 5:22
22. For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment unto the Son:

The man Yeshua also states that he himself judges no one:

John 8:15
15. You judge after the flesh: I judge no one.

There is only one who judges and he is the Seeker and the Judge:

John 8:50
50. And I seek not mine own glory: one there is, the Seeker and Judge. [Rev 2:23]

The Memra-Logos-Word which the man Yeshua speaks is not his own:

John 14:24
24. He that loves me not, keeps not my sayings: and the Logos-Word which you hear is not of me, but-contrariwise [it is] of the Father who sent me.

The Memra-Logos-Word is the Seeker and the Judge:

John 12:47-48
47. And if anyone hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but that the world might be delivered.
48. He that rejects me, and receives not my words, has one that judges him: the Logos-Word that I have spoken, that one shall judge him in the last day.

Revelation 19:11-16
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no one knew but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Logos-Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

The Son of Elohim and Son of Man is the Memra-Logos-Word who descended from the heavens in pneumatikos-spiritual somatiko-bodily form of a dove and abode-remained upon-within the man Yeshua throughout his ministry and Golgotha. No one has seen Elohim at any time because spoken word cannot be seen with the eyes of the flesh. The "new covenant" new Spirit, (Ezekiel 11:19, 18:31, 36:26), is therefore the most holy Word of the Testimony of Yeshua. Anyone claiming to have "the Holy Spirit" but not having and upholding the Testimony of Yeshua in uprightness is therefore deceived.

So essentially what you have said to me, Rosenritter, is that the doctrine of the Master Teacher Yeshua is, "just dumb". Tisk, tisk. :chuckle:

You speak of things our traditional brethren know nothing about. You speak truth. When will they see that the son of man came from above? The son of man is not a man at all. Blind fools follow in the footsteps of their forefathers.

Blessing to you my friend.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[Rosenritter]

Not so Rose, John 1 speaks of the spirit that was in Jesus. That spirit is the express image of the Father, the spirit son that the Father used to create all. That spirit became flesh in Jesus who is the body prepared for it in Heb 10:5.

Now I do not have any papers from some fancy college but I do think that God has blessed me with an understanding that most do not have. Consider my thoughts.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using TheologyOnline mobile app

You want to disagree but you just corroborated what I said....

 

[keypurr]

Reported. You are also going on ignore. Anybody that drags discussion about the Lord Jesus Christ to the gutter and its blasphemy. Your lack of scruples and propriety require a sandal shaking. You are inappropriate and disrespectful to Him, let alone His Body. You are a crude inappropriate man.

Your just dumb Lon. Clueless as to what he has been showing you.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[daqq]

You speak of things our traditional brethren know nothing about. You speak truth. When will they see that the son of man came from above? The son of man is not a man at all. Blind fools follow in the footsteps of their forefathers.

Blessing to you my friend.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using TheologyOnline mobile app

It's painfully obvious isn't it my friend? Those without dogma blinders can see it much more clearly: the very Testimony of Yeshua himself refutes their dogma, and yet, they claim he is God Almighty while some of them refuse to even look at his words when those words disagree with their own paradigm mindsets. Blessings to you also, in Messiah.

 

[keypurr]

You want to disagree but you just corroborated what I said....

No I didn't, there is a huge gap between the man Jesus and the spirit that God sent to dwell in him. The spirit, (logos, word) became flesh. Jesus is not the logos, the spirit is. This is what the churches do not teach, this is the key to understanding who Christ is.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[keypurr]

It's painfully obvious isn't it my friend? Those without dogma blinders can see it much more clearly: the very Testimony of Yeshua himself refutes their dogma, and yet, they claim he is God Almighty while some of them refuse to even look at his words when those words disagree with their own paradigm mindsets. Blessing to you also, in Messiah.

God will give to thoes who really seek an understanding my friend. For a long time I was in their boat. I can never jump into it again for I see the light of my Lord and the love of his God.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[keypurr]

I strongly suggest to folks who are serious about finding truth to get this special edition of the New Testament.

Www.aent.org

Forty bucks, the notes are priceless. Compare with the Greek to English and see for yourself how much could be mistral slated by the Greek.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[keypurr]

It's painfully obvious isn't it my friend? Those without dogma blinders can see it much more clearly: the very Testimony of Yeshua himself refutes their dogma, and yet, they claim he is God Almighty while some of them refuse to even look at his words when those words disagree with their own paradigm mindsets. Blessings to you also, in Messiah.

How silly of folks that try to hide the truth by banning someone from telling it. When they have no defense against what they accept as truth they get the other person banned. They are blind to what they are doing. Like the cowards that put the nails in Jesus to silence him. The cat is out of the bag folks.

 

[patrick jane]

How silly of folks that try to hide the truth by banning someone from telling it. When they have no defense against what they accept as truth they get the other person banned. They are blind to what they are doing. Like the cowards that put the nails in Jesus to silence him. The cat is out of the bag folks.

who was banned? Another heathen like you?

 

[keypurr]

Yep, another true Christian like me.

Sent from my A622GL using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[Lon]

Yep, another true Christian like me.

He is a guy who took his eyes off the Savior (if they were ever there - out of the heart the mouth speaks) and turned them on the gutter.
Remember "are all Unitarians perverted?" Sorry, comparing our doctrines to feces on the wall is a deal breaker. This is TOL. You are free to post here. John 20:28 Jesus Christ: Lord and God. Free to disparage with the disgusting? No. Don't drag conversation through the gutter. You are the only Unitarian that doesn't, but you stand up for unrighteousness. SIlly? When will you stand up for righteousness? Never? Stand with perverters then.

 

[keypurr]

He is a guy who took his eyes off the Savior (if they were ever there - out of the heart the mouth speaks) and turned them on the gutter.
Remember "are all Unitarians perverted?" Sorry, comparing our doctrines to feces on the wall is a deal breaker. This is TOL. You are free to post here. John 20:28 Jesus Christ: Lord and God. Free to disparage with the disgusting? No. Don't drag conversation through the gutter. You are the only Unitarian that doesn't, but you stand up for unrighteousness. SIlly? When will you stand up for righteousness? Never? Stand with perverters then.

Your just being self righteous Lon. You could not defend your faith against him. He is much wiser than you and all your degrees. Your still on that Polo Pony that you had a few years ago. Your education has been slanted and you are not interested in seeing the other side of the coin. You ran like a child to the office because someone will not agree with you. Your the one who should sit in the corner and shut up, as you told daqq to do. With all your degree and High IQ (?) you still have a lot to learn. I suggest you open your mind as to what could be and maybe the Lord will give you some truth. Your spreading the perversion of truth that has dwelled in the church for many years. Your not displaying the love of Christ when someone disputes your thoughts. That's a shame for then you lose.